Well now, alot has been said, but I would like to point out that some of the people who have said that the mage can operate no problem without a commlink have referenced the following spells for virtually constant use: Improved Invisibility, Physical Mask, Mindlink, and Levitate. So, after the mage regains consciousness from casting all these spells, he gets to sit on a -8 DP penalty to -everything- he does. Hell, he'd be needing to make checks (and fail them) to feed himself at that point, much less do anything constructive.

Oh, but he can use sustaining foci you say? Yes, sure, the dirt poor street shaman can burn 10s of thousands of Nuyen on foci. Let us also not forget the karma cost to bond all those foci. And let us also not forget that you have used up 4 foci that could be useful for other things.

Oh, and it would be fairly easy to train a dog to bark at invisible people. I mean they can be trained to bark up a tree that has a (insert critter that people hunt and runs up trees) that is being chased up it. They can also track the scent of say a prisoner very easily, and not start barking until they are close.

Dogs are smart. A bunch smarter then most people give them credit for, and know the difference between an old scent and one that is being freshly generated by an invisible person.

Now, I'm not saying it is impossible to play a mage (or any other character) without a commlink. I'm just saying it is way harder to do, and causes tons of complications and headaches for GM, player in question, and the rest of the group, and generally isn't worth it for the flavor of 'being against hi-tech'

Heck, if you really really really want I'm sure they have cell-phones in 2070. Something which only has the function of calling people and broadcasting a SIN. Let him grab that for 5 and be done with it. Others can track him with it and call him on it, he can broadcast a SIN, and he doesn't have something so high-tech. Everyone is happy.

I never said all 4 at once, nor sustained indefinately. You going into a higher security zone requiring sin broadcast? Go invisible. Starting the run and want to be in communication? Mindlink. Need to sneak by some guard dogs? Physical mask with possibly some invisible.


Just because he has obtained those foci however you want to explain it during his life doesn't mean he can't get them in chargen. You can explain getting them however you want.


I really doubt you on this. But since we don't have any invisible people around, I guess we won't find out. I agree that yes, they can track someone easily. Even bloodhounds though, need to have the scent of what they're smelling for. So they know who they're following. Without that, they'd have to just be trained to either bark at anyone coming through their area (no personal allowed, or limited ones that they know not to bark at). Easily fixed by physical masking the scent away while you're invis. Or even more simply, find out who is allowed past, and physical mask that guy.


Yes, they're fairly smart. I'm sure they can even tell the difference between new and old smell. As far as one "being freshly generated by an invisible person" I don't think its any different than a scent thats just freshly generated by a visible person, and thats where you get into trouble.


I agree. It typically isn't worth all the hassles involved. But it is doable.

Dogs aren't blind, they would be able to tell the difference between an invisible person and a visible one. They also don't require a specific scent for something along the lines of knowing if something is present or not. Hunting dogs are trained to track down a duck that you've shot. They don't need the scent of the specific duck you shot to find it.

Really, training a dog to bark at invisible people would be easy. If it detects a fresh scent ie. someone is there, and can't visibly locate the source of it, then it barks. If it detects a scent and can see the source, it doesn't bark. If I was a capable trainer I'm sure I could do this without overly much difficulty by using things like perfume. And of course if I had the benefit of an invisible person on which to practice, I'm sure the training would take a few weeks tops.

Actually, keep modern day police dogs in mind, they can track down a criminal without a particular scent, and they can bark at a place where a criminal is hidden, and I'm quite sure the handlers can get him to not bark when the criminal is just standing there.

Or perhaps, the dog growls slightly every time it detects someone pass until the handler gives a word. Bit of growling is a small price to pay for security against invisible people.

Of course yes, physical mask coupled with invisibility will get you past a dog, but then your sustaining two spells, if after you get past the dog you have to mindlink with your group, that's three spells and a -4 attempt on getting that third spell.

Though I'd admit that this particular discussion is a bit moot on the case of a commlink, because anyone would have these problems regardless of a commlink, as generally runners aren't supposed to be in areas that have this grade of security.

So yeah, tons of problems, tons of bonus complications, tons of opertunitys to get shot with friendly fire and miss out on stuff completely, but doable, just generally not worth the hassle.

Actually, as far as finding your mage teammate that doesn't want a commlink... just plant an RFID tag on him at some point

In this case (walking down the street of a secure district), we're talking about disguise, not infiltration. Where a fake SIN works rather well, a christmas tree of spells draws too much attention. I also consider it easier to spot something on the astral if it has 3 active spells than if it is a mundane aura.

Not to mention that a simple ward on a building or room you need to pass through spoils the "I just walk around with improved invisibility all the time" plan.

And what if someone just walked past, but then turned the corner? Dog smells someone, doesn't see them. I don't think it is as simple as you think it would be.

Why couldn't physical mask on its own work just fine? Find out who trained the dog, mask as them, you look, smell and all that the same as they do, so the dog won't know to get you.


What I asked in the first place. With that kind of security, how do runs get done at all in those areas.


"tons" if you happen to decide to go waltzing through the top notch security zones, sure. Most other places, not much issue at all.


No, it doesn't. A fake SIN would get checked in what, about 3 seconds after entering the area? And probably fail/glitch. And get them arrested just the same.

More of you "I nerf magic so that its near useless." By RAW, it is no harder.

And wards only spoil that if the mage is stupid. Masking, or recasting it both work quite nicely for getting by.

According to SR4, a high quality fake SIN won't hardly ever get recognised as fake (p. 323). So, I believe the intent was that fake IDs are not as easily seen through. Further, I do not think that an in-depth check will be made all the time just for walking into such a zone.



It's hardly useless, just not the be all end all that so many seem to think it is. Also, a spell has its own aura, which means instead of one aura to spot, you've got one+number of spells. That would, logically, make it easier to spot them.

Also, expecting the opposition to make heavy use of magic is not nerfing it - or do your goons not wear any armor? Your enemies not run firewalls on their gear?

Same for magic. If it's powerful, then the powerful will have magic protections, and protocols and systems to counter the - not really exotic - spells such as invisibility and physical mask.



Recasting means they'll suffer more drain, and it may not possible when they have to pass through the entrance of a building that's monitored.

What exactly is so evil at expecting runners to do a bit more (get a fake SIN, get a disguise, some etiquette skills/cover story, hacker overwatch) to fit into a high security area than casting a few spells?

Your assuming dogs are absurdly stupid and can only smell slightly better then yourself. The know (would know) the difference between someone standing in front of them invisible and someone who just walked around a corner. I'm not a trainer so I don't know the specifics of how to teach dogs, but I do know they (Some dogs and some breeds in particular) Are very intelligent and can be taught absurdly complex tricks. I hardly think that training a dog to sniff out invisible intruders would be a problem.

Well sure, physical mask could work on its own if the dog is alone. Usually dogs tend to have some kind of handler with them, and they would notice if the trainer randomly showed up when he wasn't supposed to. Add to this the fact that the trainer isn't generally a cop at all, and (in modern days at least) tends to be from and live in another country entierly (police dogs learn all their commands in... hungairan or some language like that generally, to stop them responding to commands like 'heel' from a criminal, though they only respond to their handler anyway, so that isn't much of a problem even if the criminal randomly knows the proper commands)

I wasn't saying 'that kind of security' I was pointing out that if your in an area that is difficult to move around in, your going to have difficulty either with fake SINs or trying to use magic to get past everything. Fake SINs aren't fool proof after all, and can be detected, just as running around with a couple spells has problems and can potentially be detected.

Well, in general, runs aren't exactly to the barrens, and waltzing through zones with at least some level of security is going to be a fairly common requirement. And as has been mentioned, I'm talking about more then just moving past security when I say 'tons'.

Fluff != rules. The rules they get broken pretty quick and easy when checked.


By your logic applied to physical terms... A person is so visible. Putting a coat on that person makes them more visible, because it is an extra object to see.


No, nerfing it is ruling that the invisible mage gets hit by ricocheting bullets. Its having invisible sniffing guard dogs as standard. (By the way, how many games that you have run, have featured said dogs as security? Or did you just think of them for this thread.) And its having astral overwatch to the point where even having a spell or two sustained means you're going to be flagged as suspicious. As far as expecting heavy use of magic... 1% of people have it. It is not as common as you seem to think.


Sure, the powerful. To protect themselves and their interests. Much less so to keep some guy off the street.


Could mean more drain. Not always. You can always go through other entrances.

The fact that apparently astral security is so tight in said areas, that magical infiltration is not a possible option, at all, no matter what. Because you said so. Rocks fall, everyone dies. "Overwatch" spots you, go to jail. Same difference.

/shrug.

I play the game in a manner I find logical, and fun. Having magic overrule common sense is not fun for me. YMMV.

I guess "common sense" isn't always shared between people.