At risk of playing devil's advocate, I have noticed that god in your posts is spelled "God," thus is a matter of faith for you. You ask to be proven wrong. A proof requires logic. Faith cannot be logical because faith is belief without proof. Proof denise faith. Therefor, you ask an impossible question. Your idea of a God universe can no more be disproven than the idea of the universe being sneezed out of the nose of the Great Grey Green Arnkelseizure.

However, let us look at Thomas Aquinas' idea of the "Unmoved Mover." This idea requires the acceptance of a certain postulate. Causality, one thing leads to another. The idea boils down to, if we follow the chain of causality in to the past we will eventually come to something that caused something that was not caused by something else. This means that at the moment of initiation, something imparted all the universe's energy to it in one glorious moment. "Bang?" What caused it? How did it happen? Was it God/gods? We can never Know. We can believe all we want.

On the subject of magic. If we go with the idea that magic comes from the Sun, just remember that in space, matter and energy is very thinly spread out. It needs a collecter of some sort. Someone mentioned that the Earth acts as a collector to concentrate the magical energies. It was also mentioned on the forum that magic is life. IMHO both are correct. To make it simple, The sun provides energy for photosynthesis. Herbivores eat the plants. Carnivores eat the herbivores. The carnivores die early from a diet of too much red meat and decompose to provide raw materials for the plants to use in photosynthisis. This produces a great big roundy round that continues to collect magic/mana/energy until the levels rise enough to trip a breaker and short out the entire city block. Something resets the breaker and the whole shebang starts anew.

That's my two nuyen. I'll shut up now.

How do you explain the spectral analysis of starlight to have a different concentrations of elements than the sun?
Note: the moon light has the same composition as sunlight.

Checkmate. Game, set, and match.

If you Believe in Proof, then you have Faith in Science, then Logic is you God ?

What the hell ... Look at the sky ! You see all the star ? There ... you've seen other stars !

I actually wrote God Universe, as a proper name for the idea of a universe one or more 'levels' above ours which somehow is responsible for creating and/or guiding our own. Your assumption that I am basing (that) post on faith is not correct, at least not any more than the post I was responding to was based on faith.



And this, of course, is a red herring and incorrect. Even supposing I believed in God based on faith, proving God exists does not suddenly make me unfaithful or uncreate God. I can believe on faith that my wife will never cheat on me, and ask you to prove me wrong. That does not make the question unprovable.



Are there then some substances which contain more magic than others? A magical oil, in effect?

I think we ventured a bit off topic here folks.

It just does. One of the Heisenberg sp? uncertainty relationships the most well know is velocity and position, but there are others, including energy and time. So the particle has a range of energies it has, so long as it has them within a certain time frame. Has a lot to do with the wave nature of particles as well (IIRC been awhile since I took modern physics since I changed majors).

Which brings me back to my overlooked point, which was also mentioned by someone else. Perhaps magic is just another form of radiation? There are already canon effects of nuclear radiation such as in Chicago interfering with magic. There is also the realigning qi from astral shadows in the DNA strand mentioned in the revitalization genetech. So perhaps there is a magical component of atoms that when interacting in certain ways gives rise to radiation/emanations on the aether (luminiferous aether anyone?).

There's also negative energy. Which has odd properties, last I knew.

I don't remember any negative energy. I remember anti-matter.

Then there is Dark Matter, which is bleh. I, personally, do not feel that dark matter actually exists. Every time part of it is proven wrong, they don't think the hypothesis itself is wrong they just say "oh there is just -less- dark matter than we thought."

Other theories that don't rely on something we can not find, can not observe, can not measure, are completely ignored and get no funding because of all the focus on dark matter. Focus which does nothing but pretty mathematics with no actual basis, much like string theory which is also being disproven.

Sorry, dark matter is a pet peeve of mine. Which will be horrible if it really does exist.

I don't recall the source* anymore, however, there is a wikipedia article on negative mass. NOT DARK MATTER or antimatter.

*Likely a Discover Magazine I threw out long ago.

It does have on there the theory that anti-matter may have negative mass.

Otherwise its another fun mathematical exercise. One in the way of, nothing we know currently prevents this from being possible, but there is no evidence to show that it does in fact happen.

Though it is interesting.

Negative energy was something I remember them finding out it exists (about all I remember: the negative energy wave was always canceled out by an equal positive energy sometime after it--you could delay the "positive" energy some, at the expense of just making it bigger, and any attempt to isolate the negative wave from the positive wave just resulted in the creation of a new positive wave).

That article is one I would like to see, as I really do not see how you can have negative energy. A wave is a wave is a particle. Constructive and destructive interference will apply. If the waves don't affect each other, then they are simply different forms, as we have still failed to prove any kind of GUT.

But specifically what kind of energy negative is it referring to? Is it electro-magnetic, strong-nuclear or weak, or thermal/radiation?


Or Aetheral to pretend to link it to the actual discussion

I don't have the article any more. Otherwise I would have.

It is interesting that you should posit this, as numerology has long been an established element in magic.
Jewish Kabbalah, Christian Cabalah and more specifically Hermetic Qabalah have practitioners who not only believe that magic is a series of numbers waiting to be uncovered, but have uncovered some and use them in their own rituals to do "magic".
Numbers do not always equate to Science.

Qabbalah "magic" manipulates the sephirah which are considered to be emanations of the divine energy (often described as 'the divine light').
This light may only be partially from the sun. Life energy is supplied by the sun (photosynthesis et al), but some energy comes from other places (potentially other planes or metaplanes).

The ebb and flow of magic and awakening could be as simple as the cycle of the seasons. There could be some wobble in the spin of our solar system (or universe) that brings us closer to and farther from some "unexplained" source of magical energy.

Nothing absolute, but some things to ponder.

Watched some odd movie a few weeks back called Pi in which the main character is trying to predict the stock market and a computer bug fries his machine, but not before printing out a number 216 digits long, which turns out to be "The True Name of God." Another character shows him some Gematria hinting that they've been trying to find the 216 digit name of God.

The only example I can remember was the numerical value of the word for "mother" plus that of "father" equaled that of "child."

I don't think I'm contradicting you in saying that the idea behind Kabalah and the like isn't that the numbers are the root, but rather the numbers are an abstraction of the root. 2 is not literally the untapped, unrestricted form, but it represents Binah, which is such. It's a name, a representation, just like the word 'Binah'. It's a tool, an abstraction, for us to understand, moderate and adjust these flows, and to communicate information (hence the goal in the movie Pi - if you understand the secret name of God, that unlocks information you may use to do other things. The name itself is just a formula, an abstraction, which allows you to understand and harness those powers.)

Thinking numbers have power is like confusing an image and reality. Math is a virtual world, but magic is real.

Yeah, last time I tried to use this argument here people started bashing me...
So, trying to take the thread back on topic. Magic is caused by a "reaction" between living things and sun radiation is that it?

No, actually. Those are just bright dots in the sky. What I'm asking for (and no one has produced) is an actual photograph of the solar landscape of another star. I'm sorry I wasn't clearer. Give me pictures of the solar flares and sun-spots of Alpha Centauri. Show me beyond a reasonable doubt that those are actually other balls of superheated gasses very much like our own Sol.

And the fun part is this: even if you get photographs of them, that still won't prove: 1) how they were formed (we've never seen a star formed - we've only seen bright dots get brighter. You cannot reasonably say that it wasn't just a cloud of dust clearing out of the way from between us and an already formed star), or 2) how they are burning. The two main theories are A) Atomic Fusion (or fission, I get them confused), or B) Gravitational Collapse. Evolutionists tend to prefer Fusion (/fission) because that allows stars to exist for billions of years, but they have 0 (zero) evidence, or other evidence that is inconclusive.


Heh, so you have to have blind faith in your theory? That's fine, you can believe what you want.

In other news, I do agree that if this discussion should be continued, it should be done in either PMs or through another medium.

In Shadowrun, magic seems to be linked to living thing's biospheres, and radiation seems to be a counter to it. If you look at Bug City you'll find that magic is kinda hard there.

Are you looking for a human visible spectrum photograph, or any spectral photo?

Here's an article with a measurement of a solar flare on a star 150 light years away http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/...71219103049.htm

Here's another article http://heasarc.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/swift/news/2006/06-93.html

I suspect you know this, and that's why you asked specifically for a photograph, but we can measure any of the activities you mentioned on other starts in a variety of ways, but given that the visible part of the light humans can register is so small, its degraded to the point were getting an actual photograph of that sort of event is nearly impossible. Which is why we use the data we do receive (radiation levels, x-rays, spectral analysis) to reconstruct the event in a way that politicians and laymen can understand. Taxpayers foot the bill for NASA projects and taxpayers dont want research papers, they want pretty pictures.

I've always wondered how accurate our guesses are on astrophysics. We don't see the type of intensity changes in our star that we see in other stars. In the article linked above they don't bat an eye at a 20% decrease in the intensity of the observed star. They also can't accurately take into account the intervening space and objects that might be in the way because there is no way to 100% we're getting a clear view. To assume that we can clearly view the surface of another sun from our position here on earth is about as plausible as Sarah Palin saying she can see Russia from her house. Science can make a reasonable guess considering our present ability, but please don't assume that what is published is the God's honest truth. There are plenty of scientists that don't believe it, and that's why we're constantly trying to find out more and prove or disprove what we already consider fact. Too many amateur scientists take the stance that what they learned in school is gospel. Plus there are plenty of people of faith who are just as interested in this stuff for intellectual reasons as well as a hope that what we find and prove will have some positive benefit on mankind.

To answer you first question: Probably not very. We actually know very little on how the age of the a star effecs... well, pretty much anything. Most of the current science used for these studies is based on the Sun as a control. For all we know, the Sun is totally messed up in someway, and not at all normal, making it a very poor control subject. It would be like doing a test on the run speed of rats using a three legged rat as the control and calling all other rats faster.

But I didn't think the articles for the science, but for the measurements and pictures extrapolated from those measurements. The first article is really good, I think.

Assigned Reading:
Far-Seer: Book One of the Quintaglio Ascension

Magic comes from dragon farts.

You've been reading Irene Radford's Dragon Nimbus serieses, haven't you?

(That world's magic didn't exactly "come" from dragons, though they were part of the process)

Never heard of it.

I felt that my first response for where magic came from was too disgusting/crude.

I figured you hadn't (and got the joke). Here's book 1, at some point in one of the series they allude to magic only working because of dragons--at least, the Nice Clean Magic that doesn't Hurt People (aka Blood Magic). There's also a type of tree that is kinda drug-like that can augment magical strength, but can kill you in high doses (dragons eat the leaves of this tree, which is why "dragon magic" is safe: they processed it first--hence the appropriate connection to dragon farts).

Off-topic in spoilers to save room


On topic: It is interesting that dragons being cool with magic never really appeared until Tolkein (or at least, he made the idea of intelligent dragons popular). I kind of like the idea of feral dragons that are little more than extremely powerful animals.

Tolkien was a great, imaginative man. We have him to thank for modern dwarves, modern elves, modern dragons,* some aspects of magic, and the first fantasy epic.**

*Whatever that might mean. Smaug was obviously not a modern thinking dragon. Whatever that might mean.

**At the time of the publishing of LOTR it was considered taboo to publish a fantasy novel over 1000 pages long, and IIRC, they are each about 996 pages long. I don't have my copies on hand to check.

I do prefer Tolkein's elves to Santa's elves, by far.

Tolkien did not so much as invent the intelligent dragon/dwarves/dlves but rediscovered them. His great litterary work was not the fantasy tales of hobbits et al but translating nearly lost scandanavian folklore. Christian demogogues tried to destroy such tales and reduce serpents to beasts of Satan. Which of course hsould not be capable of inteligent conversation.

Tolkien rescued from oblivion the Oxidental dragon,he didn't invent them though eastern cultures were always able to hold onto the image of the dragon as powerful, magical and extraordinarily dangerous to be around.

I remember hearing somewhere, I can't remember where (but I don't think it's SR related,) that Dragon's were a measure of magic in the world. that their existance was a reflection of the magic in the world. as the Dark ages (circa 455-1066 CE) came to an end these legends were dying out and fading as the world became more practical. As they return the world is more magical. do they create the magic or just need it to survive? That's up for grabs but remember, the awakening is officially marked by the appearance of a great Dragon. that must mean something.

Reminds me of Equinox.

Smaug wasn't quite a modern dragon, but he came close and was probably the most outright magical thing in Middle Earth, not counting the Ring and the Istari.

Um... Not really? The Bible actually teaches that dragons were simply the name for dinosaurs before Richard Owen bastardized two different languages to bring us "dinosaur" (with dino coming from the Greek deinos which means "fearful" and saur being latin for lizard). For instance, the unicorn mentioned in the Bible is probably referring to something like the monoclonius or styracosaurus, while the leviathan is possibly an elasmosaurus or plesiosaur, and the behemoth is probably something like an apatosaurus or more likely the brachiosaurus. A lot of problems happened in the "Dark Ages" where the Catholic church attempted to (and largely succeeded in) controlling the information of the populace, and a lot of the knowledge of the Bible was lost (and is now being rediscovered).

Hence "whatever that might mean." In the sense in which it applies to Smaug, I mean a dragon with an intelligence surpassing that of most other mortal creatures--shame he was ignorant about his Achilles Heel. Scale. Belly plate scute* hole thing.

But your're right, he wasn't a modern dragon, one who moves with the times and gets himself some of the latest gadgets and gizmos--be they the SOTA computerized shiznit or just an army of human pawns with catapults. Or a modern thinking dragon who accepts gay relationships, the internet, going to college, and getting a real job (like being president).

*There's a new word for most people.

Umm, astrology and astronomy, while related in that they both deal with heavenly bodies (and astrology uses astronomy heavily for reference), are VERY VERY DIFFERENT.

That time I was being facetious. The similar names got me, like Elijah/Elisha, astronomy/astrology, and a few others. Luckily I'm finally able to keep erotic/erratic correct (which lead to some interesting conversations, before I could...).

I would pay to see/hear those conversations

I like to treat magic like a massive Acid trip, which is sort of fitting since the population % of Awakened people matches up with the % of Schizophrenics. The Awakened Character can see the world in a far more essential way. To one who has access to the Astral, the surface veneer of the common is stripped away, leaving a world of meanings, instead of a world of forms. To a person such as that, there is an understanding that the physical world is composed of ideas, and by manipulating ideas, one can alter the physical world.

The Shaman accomplishes this by means of personality. Their personal force is so great that they can alter the reality of a thing by an exertion of will. A good example of this would be the King of the Moon from The Adventures of Baron Munchausen. The Lunatic King can trap others in his lunacy. The Hermetic functions with a far more mathematical understanding of these things. He bends reason in order to prove that something has happened, so that it will. Sort of like the (I want to say Douglas Adams - maybe Alan Moore from Miracleman?) trope of moving a spaceship with a mathematical equation which proves that you're already at your destination. Point being that the hermetic mage uses his belief and understanding to conform reality to fit his desire.

A mystic adept has this understanding, though he does not necessarily see things in their nature as meaning distilled. He is still caught up in the world of forms and will not abandon it. Sort of like the river fish who can swim all the way up and down the river, but can not imagine the ocean, the MA can imagine the ocean, but he just can't swim its salty waters. He knows his reality is a prison, but he has decided it is his prison. The adept, on the other hand, concentrates his beliefs using his body as the meditative focus, working from the "cogito ergo sum" base. He bends not the world, but himself.

Drain from using magic comes, not from the physical exertion, but from the pressure put on the character's sanity. Every time that they alter reality, they disprove themselves, their world, their purpose. The very absurdity of living in an irrational world pushes them towards a catatonia, taking will, or, more spectacularly, life, out of them. The sort of stun damage they take isn't bruises, but ennui. Except for Adepts using Attribute Boost. That's just some straight up bruises.

Someone's been playing a little too much Mage: The (Awakening/AScension).

More like too much Joseph Campbell and comic books.

Both of which were highly influential in the creation of SR.

That said, I tend to treat it as starting with a common thing - either pulling in mana from the astral plane, or pulling it from a spirit, such as a Mentor spirit or Kami. Or themselves, for blood magic or in an ebb or void. From there, it depends on the player's tradition. A Shinto Priest takes the flavoured mana from a Kami and shapes it as desired, harmonising it with the world and the kami of the objects it does affect. Any drain suffered is from negotiating badly with the Kami. A Hermetic or Chaos mage slams it through a complex symbolic formula - the drain is overbleed, excess mana drawn. A Black Magician reaches out with his will and channels it straight through his body, using willpower to keep it away from the "sides" of the mana channel - drain is mana touching the sides. Like Operation, really. A shaman taps the mana inherent in the natural world - the bedrock or the ocean. Drain is from inexpert handling of the vast power of the earth. Whatever my players want to use.

Adepts are just putting in extra effort for the more physical bits - ever tried doing more than your 1RM at the gym? Like that. The extra effort is what lets them summon the strength or speed to do it. Other than that, it's just something that develops over time. It happens naturally. They notice themselves getting faster, and faster and faster until they've got 4IP and 9 Rea. Or 5, I guess. I wish it was possible to get 5IP outside of the Matrix. Some of the active powers are a little dicey, but I just say "it's an extra sense or physical capability. Feels completely natural."

Edit: Oh, and if an adept learns some really beyond the pale, like "Limited astral projection", it acts the same way. With a learned reflex he kicks free of his body and.. surprise!

I certainly don't thank him for THEM*.

* THEM being fancy pants elves** that piss me off.
** Yes I realize that Blood Elves*** from WoW fall into this category.
*** Yes I realize that I play a Blood Elf, but he's a paladin**** so I have an excuse.
**** When Cataclysm comes out, I am seriously considering paying for a race change to Tauren just so I don't have to be a friggin elf*****.
***** I realize that I may have undue hatred for elves, but who can blame me when you see a bunch of elves running around in MMOs with names that are variations of Legolas and Sephiroth******.
****** Due to his popularity******* and fanboi base, I consider Sephiroth an elf.
******* There are farm more cooler Final Fantasy villains********, like Kefka.
******** Pokey from Earthbound********* is cooler than Sephiroth.
********* If you haven't played Earthbound, you should. It's ballin'.

Tolkien isn't to blame for Blood Elves.

Elves, especially the Sidhe were around before him.

I would blame metrosexuals and the people that cause things like Twilight to occur.

Maybe that is the source of Elven magic?

QFT

I wouldn't blame metrosexuals for anything other than increased hygiene standards. An all-around positive, I think.

It is more than likely an overall positive trend,
but you could blame them for a lot more than that.

Can we at least give them a different name?
Do they reproduce by mass transit?
Was it some kind of bad pun riffing on Sex in the City?