But then you would make the drone invisible, not become invisible yourself.

Bye
Thanee

But you are not, and it is not; it is only a OR 3...

That's not how Physical Illusions and Object Resistance work.

"Physical illusions are effective against technological systems, assuming the caster achieves enough hits to meet the Object Resistance threshold (p. 183)."

You have to meet the drone's OR threshold* in order to have the illusion be effective. If you don't get [OR] hits, the drone see you. If you do, it doesn't.

* Note to Dakka Dakka: not beat it, just meet it. Force 5 is plenty for the vast majority of drones. No net hits are required for illusions.

Got a rules quote for that? It looks like a GM call to me (and one I've never had to make, since the party's mage never casts against drones).

Well it could be that Physical Illusion Spells get a differing rule but it is true for all spells:

I always found that this rule was weird, but that's what it is. There are other spells that drones get to resist besides Physical Illusions.

OR 3 vs OR 5: that's what I'm talking about. I find it counterintuitive that for one class of spells (Physical illusions) you can affect only part of the drone, when otherwise you can't. Or could you just power bolt the ammunition belt of its LMG, which is made out of cheap plastic and thus only OR 2. Moreover this part would probably have a lot less damage boxes but destroying it would still make the drone a lot less dangerous.

I didn't say anything about solving everything by using spells. What I am saying is many of the more useful ones are resisted and because they fail at these it makes them much more useless. Should they be as good at is as a mage? No. But that doesn't mean they should have such a large margin for failure when put against something with the ability to resist.

That part wasn't aimed at you specifically... more of a general note.

Bye
Thanee

Yep... Sensors are OR 3.
Admittedly, It is a GM call, because it could go either way...

Which just goes to show that if you plan on making a Mystic Adept, ask the GM how he'll be handling OR for illusion spells. It can greatly change your spell load out, or at least how often you end up overcasting.

Indeed

That question is only necessary if you no your GM is gonna house rule it so that mys-adds max force is capped at something else then full magic or if you plan to have a pretty small casting dicepool thats unlikely to ever get enough hits for the higher threshold.

So what parts of the drone do you think should be affected by an invisibility spell (cast on something else) other than the sensors?

Illusions do only affect the sensors so it should be OR3 – why would the more intricate make-up of the rest of the drone (circuitry, moving parts, etc.) have a bearing on what the drone does or does not see? The only part other than the sensors that could have any bearing is the Pilot program trying to see through the illusion, but since non-living observers don't get a resistance test (and the fact that the Pilot can only go by what the sensors tell it) this is not applicable.

Think about it – no spell is being cast on the drone here. If you get three hits then all stand-alone sensors will be fooled. Surely it would be counterintuitive to rule that drone-mounted sensors will see through illusions with 3 or 4 hits where stand-alone sensors would not?

I would rule that you could indeed target the ammo belt, but chances are it will be internal and hidden from view so no dice.

The thing is, OR is based mostly on the processing and complexity of the object in question. And the fact is, the Drone is one big computer on legs. The sensors it uses are just part of that computer, not a computer itself (as most standalone sensors are considered to be [peripheral nodes]). So, I would say the drone sensors use the drone OR of 5.

That's what I meant.
Also why can a the high Perception Street Sam with cybereyes still beat an Invisibility spell with 3 hits? Since the spell only affects sensors, shouldn't 3 be enough since he has cybereyes? I know the standard answer is because it's paid for with essence it's part of the character. It makes no sense to handle drones differently

Drones are not paid for with Essence. Why would you handle the Camera on a Drone differently than a Camera connected to a Cray Computer? They should both have the Same OR, and in fact, according to the Books, they Do. OR 3. A Sensor is a Sensor is a Sensor. There are no differences.

In your games, Does a Sensor attached to your combat vest get the benefits of your Willpower to resist the Illusion Spell, or is it completely fooled at OR3?

A DRONE is not being targeted by those types of Spells, just as the SENSOR is not being targeted. The Sensor detects the effect, so why would a Drone sensor be any different than a Microcamera on the wall? Simple, They wouldn't be.

The sensor on my vest would have OR 4 (now that I actually checked them on SR4A pg 183), like most electronics. But it isn't physically part of a complex computer system, except through the connection to your commlink, and would count at most, as a peripheral node, which would either be electronics(OR 4), or a computer (OR 6).

Update your SR4A.

Sensors are Sensors. Sensors are OR 3 per the SR4A Book. Sensors are not Computers, nor are they Drones. You really should update your resources there HunterHerne...

IIRC there was a whole discussion about the different ORs for drones to beat. The conclusion was that physical illusion spells only have to fool the sensor array's OR of 3 to get the illusion working against drones. It's one of those inconsistent approaches to the whole magic vs tech dilemma where the creator of this rule failed to make it clear how this is really intended and where RAW and RAI contradict each other to create a whole bunch of different approaches.

But on that same token drones are droned are drones. Your not trying to fool some sensor somewhere with your spell, your trying to foll a drone.

Actually you are trying to fool a drone by fooling it's sensors...

And you are destroying a drone by destroying its essential parts. The tracks and gun barrels will be a lot less sophisticated than the whole drone. Allowing parts of a hole to be affected by Magic is a slippery slope.

The drone isn't "changed" at all by Improved Invisibility.

Bye
Thanee

Indeed. More specifically, you are hoping that who- or whatever views the video feed will be given a false image. There is no test for the pilot, rigger or any other user of the drone to identify that what they are seeing is false - it is simply determined by how strong the spell is. If it's good enough to make the subject invisible to sensors then that's all there is to it.

The point is by Shadowrun magic methodology you CANNOT just affect part of a drone, you have to affect the whole thing or nothing.

Magic doesn't affect "sensors". It affects "aura". The drone has one aura. Magic can only affect entire auras, not just one piece at a time.



-k

But you are not targeting the Drone or its component pieces. That is where you are going off the rails. You are setting up an effect that the Drone perceives WITH its sensors. Completely different thing entirely.

Exactly. The OR is not overcome by a direct effort of the caster. The OR in this case represents the ability of the sensors to pierce through the illusion or it's ability to not being affected by it.

To my knowledge, there is nothing in SR4A that states or implies that it is possible to affect part of something but not the whole with magic, either directly or indirectly. If I were the GM, I would rule that the drone's OR5 "subsumes" the sensor's OR3 on the grounds that the sensor(s) is/are an integral part of the drone.

Which in return means anybody just needs to buy the new VEILPIERCER drone which is nothing else than a camera, a selfadjusting helmet and a small screen to employ a HUD with a pilot soft to control the camera and adjust the helmet. Since its a drone it's camera would automatically be OR 5 thus allowing the wearer to greatly improve his ability to peirce any illusion. Wouldn't it be awesome? No more illusions for anybody!

No, Sensors are not integral. The sensor array is - while the different sensors installed on it are exchangeable. As these sensors yet are the part to fool (remember, you do NOT fool the pilot you fool it's sensors) it's their OR to overcome, not that of the drone itself.

That's the same with things you wear on your character. Those are individually targetable. As are sensors (NOT the sensor array itself!) on a drone.

Yes OR does not make much sense. For example It is easier to have a Rock (OR 1) burst into flames than Gasoline (OR 2) with the Ignite spell. The only suitable explanation is "It's Magic!" The same goes for the inability to affect parts of a whole.

BTW to qualify as a drone it has to be a vehicle and has to be riggable.

Unless it's a gun with the pilot and mobility mod or a drone hand

How are those not vehicles or riggable?

Well, the hand isn't when it's not detached.

I agree that the drone uses its OR 3 (whatever) sensors to try to beat the independent illusion effect. It makes as much sense as we can hope for with the OR rules.

Give it a rigger adaption and foldable legs (in fact those would the drone use to adjust it's position on the wearers head) et voila.