Speaking as an old SR2/3 fan that didnt like 4th edition at all, I find 5th is a return to form for the line, by bringing back some of its emblematic tropes (cyberdeck, punk attitude, etc) while retaining some good parts from 4th and even improving on it (matrix rules).

But being completely honest, I would rather have a a "SR 2.5 Special Edition" that takes that old edition as a base and lapidate/improve on it. Im not a fan of 4th/5th inflated dice pools, flavourless magical traditions, Edge, Qualities, etc. I think Shadowrun evolved in the wrong direction, really.

SR5 takes some of the things I disliked about SR4 and makes them worse. Wireless, which you could at least opt out of in SR4, gets shoved down people's throats even harder. Things aren't much better for deckers themselves, who have overwatch score and ownership, both very problematic mechanics.

I originally thought they were actually going to nerf social adepts - kinesics (resistance only), voice control (limit increase only), and improved ability (more expensive, and only one skill at a time) were relatively balanced against tailored pheromones. Sure, the main flaw with balancing adepts was retained - they could have their abilities and get tailored pheromones. Mundanes were at least competitive, though. Then came Street Grimoire, with authoritative tone and cool resolve. The pornomancer is back; go adept or go home.

Mages get nerfed - well, not really, that much. A category of spells gets nerfed to oblivion, which only means that indirect combat spells replace direct combat spells as the go-to ones, and mental manipulation spells are still effective, and spirits are more overpowered than ever. Background count is back, but honestly, all that flat dice penalties do is encourage more min-maxing, so you will have dice left after penalties.

The SR3 stuff they shoehorned in doesn't fit as well. Decks I can see as "professional-level" commlinks. One way to weed out the script kiddies, I guess, but I hate how gear-dependent it makes deckers (riggers are also that way). I wish they had simplified hacking even more, and made it more ubiquitous, rather than shoehorning deckers and riggers back into their own D&D-style character classes.

Overall, the game feels less fun and more constrained, despite the increased power level. The "cyberpunk attitude" is reserved for "clever" little asides mixed in with the rules - it is more grating than anything else to me, although thankfully they don't use it too often.

Given the lack of editing quality and the dismal release schedule, I still think 5e releasing when and as it did was simply Catalyst needing an injection of book sales dosh.

I think Jason Coleman can answer this question best


No I don't think so, not Now (and by the way, the Freuquenzy was 6 Years in average for a New Edition IIRC )


Yes/maybe


If read a few Times that oldschool SR2/3 Players that "wouldn't touch SR4 with a 10 Feet Pole" consider the 5th ed and the Rules the Best thing since the invention of sliced Bread
I guess I will never (ever ) understand these Kinds of Gamers or their Perception

@ Glyph
+1 from Me

Hough!
Medicineman

I still cannot befriend with SR5. For me, the changes they made were either not important (hacking) or so bad (magic), that I got an overall negative impression. Aside from some stupid game mechanics (use of dram, reintroduction of cyberdecks, wifi-bonus, etc.) I was very disappointed with the general quality and the small content of the books. Proofreading was either non-existent or incompetent (I cannot tell what is worse) and publishing a new sourcebook (e.g. the new version of street magic) with – I don´t know – below 100 pages or so, was just a bad joke. What´s next? 3-page-minibooks for 50 cents? A subscription with monthly payment? Pay to win? Maybe I should shut up, before I am I guilty if this happens in SR6. 

I am with SR since 1st edition, and we always complained about the new version and the “damn money-greedy guys, that publish new versions just to get into our wallets”, but if I am honest, I wouldn´t go back to a previous version. Changes are always difficult – that is a problem of humanity, but most of the time you get used to it and after a while you see the benefit. SR4 was (for me) great. There were a enough vague rules to justify coming to DS and complain about them, you had a lot of options and if you wanted to go for powergaming, I think it was never easier then at 4th.

The switch to another version was overdue and I was really excited to get my hands on the SR5 core-book, but the first thing I lost, was the feeling for SR. SR5 is the first version that killed my childlike interest to put my nose in the book, to explore them, my wish to play around and create sample characters and – which was even worse - my imagination/picture of the game-world. I had the impression, that it was just a plain try to get quick money, no matter the costs (financially or emotionally), using existing data, changing some game-mechanics and tadaaa…we tell everybody it is a new game. They have an enormous output – I will give them that - but none of it gives me the feeling of completeness. Also the new official forum was (again, only for me) more an assault on the existing fan-base than everything else. DS was the place to be and I was very disappointed, that they rather tried to suck all the experience to their own baby. There would have been better solutions. I think, SR is not what they want it to be. It had heart, it was a small community of nerds and geeks and we were fine with it. Now they want to make it a mainstream product and I fear, that this was a bad choice.

You might have noticed that since 5th, I am not that active on DS anymore and I also got the impression, that the overall use of shadowrun forums dropped drastically. I think that I am not the only one with this impression and especially the lack of really long discussion threads seems to confirm this opinion.

I can only hope for a change.

Shadowrun 4th Edition was the longest lasting edition of the game so far, released in 2005. And it was a a full overhaul of the mechanics, which obviously would not get everything right the first time (and 4A only contained a small volume of fixes). From timing and necessity, a 5th edition was completely in order. What became of it is another story

Obviously, some people's personal biases are blinding them to the actual state of SR.

The official forums didn't kill dumpshock. Dumpshock killed dumpshock by being so negative about everything Shadowrun. You guys make the freelancers not want to come here. You make new users not want to come here. Obviously there is no reason to talk about SR here, because the talk that Dumpshock likes to talk about is the death of Shadowrun.

SR4 is still being supported, strangely enough. So clearly if SR5 is a money grab to force everyone to buy new books, CGL is doing a terrible job at forcing you to buy SR5 when things like Battle of Manhattan is SR4 compatible.

I don't know if you've been keeping up with other RPGs outside of Shadowrun, but all RPGs have editing issues. I can't imagine CGL is able to single handedly solve all the issues of the entire hobby. Cut them some slack and discuss the problems and how to solve or interpret the issues rather than spew out vial that doesn't help anyone.

Lastly, Shadowrun is more popular than ever. SR books are almost always on RPGDriveThru's top 10 best sellers, as well as core books are often rewarded with platinum status. the shadowrun subreddit is huge, and there are 2 shadowrun play subreddits. CGL's forums run poorly, I assume because they're getting a lot of traffic.

If you don't like SR5, that's fine. But by not supporting it, you are willingly being left behind. You can't stick your head in the ground and expect people to come to you. What are you going to do? Have the same rule discussions about SR4 that have already been talked about a million times over?

As a counterpoint, SR5 has been out for two years. The fact that they feel they need to make new releases SR4/SR5 compatible does tend to demonstrate that even CGL doesn't think SR5 got the kind of take-up it could have.

Yep, this. The fourth has a lot of problems, both minor and major, and it could certainly use an update. The thing is: the update is supposed to be better than the current version.


You could certainly enlighten us. Or what, do you think that no one here knows or recognizes the fact that the new videogames brought new blood to the game?

Shitty writing does not equal Shadowrun. Writing books without caring to read up on the fluff does not equal Shadowrun. Absent editing does not equal Shadowrun.

Or, you know, making things backwards compatible could mean they were written before the new edition hit the shelves, and are just now being published.

All RPGs have editing issues; no major RPGs of the same class as Shadowrun have editing issues of anywhere near the scale. I can't recall a D&D book messing up a character's name thrice on the same page, or calling dragon hoards "hordes", or failing to provide errata for years. As a matter of fact, Shadowrun until quite recently did not have editing issues of the kind. Why should anyone remain silent about that? How do you "solve issues" with rules which make no goddamn in-universe sense whatsoever, not to mention often directly contradict themselves?
Other than houseruling half a system, that is - but minding that 5e is an update for 4e, perhaps a saner decision would be houserulling the later, then?

Could I please see the numbers?

Nah, we're going to discuss for the millionth time why optic cables are archeotech and how a particular clothing cut improves your negotiation skills even over the Matrix. That's just so much better.

4.5 had a lot of problems that needed addressing. Of course, some of them 5e actually made worse.

Technically, that never happened, although it kind of depends on how you count them. Ist ed D&D was split into two lines, Basic and Advanced, and there were about four Basic editions. If you go from last core book, AD&D started in 77, and ended in 85. 2e started in 1989, but pretty much shut down after 1995. 3e ran from 2000-2003, and 3.5 lasted from 2003-2008. Eight years is pretty much the max.

In that case there still was the conscious decision to leave the old rules in, CGL could just as well have removed them.

They were already there in that scenario, why throw them out if having them in would mean milking the grognard crowd for their dosh?

@DeathStrobe: please don´t misunderstand me. Like i pointed out, this is just my impression. Nothing else. The only thing i recognized, is that i haven´t had a problem with 4 editions of the game. 5th is the first one, that killed my interest in Shadowrun, so whatever was the reason, something bad seems to have happened. If SR becoming more maintream and therefore more popular is a good thing or not, is up to yourself.

I've bought Shadowrun books like a collectionneur. I have now nearly full 3rd-4th ed + 5th core book. But I didn't read loads of it, I'm still not past Dunkelzahn's will.

Honestly, many books of 2nd ed I did read are poor or bad.

But everytime I come on DS, I get the feeling that the game must have evolvd into the baddest RPG ever made.

For a time, I believed it. Then something changed. The 3rd ed grognards somewhat faded a bit more in the background and 4th became the "best norm". And it's 5th that is now dispised.

This thread was about what was going to be released, guesses at rates and stuff and turned again in the debated to death "edition war".


To be honest, I think too that Dumpshock is killing himself with always the same old things...

Before drawing parallels between the edition changes, you could just open up the topic on the shortcomings of 5e core, and compare that to where you know, say, 4e is lacking.
I don't recall rules in 4e core directly contradicting themselves, or making no sense whatsoever outside of gamist worldview.

Oh really? You don't remember in SR4A where the drain of direct spells suddenly got a lot harder the more successes you had? Almost like the developers realised how broken magic that could only be resisted with one stat was while also having the best drain formula in the game.

How about every test being Attribute + Skill, except oddly the Matrix, making the game system inconsistent with itself.

How about emotitoys?

SR4 isn't perfect. Its a good system. But SR5 does actually fix the clearly problematic parts of SR4. You've been on dumpshock long enough, I don't know how you couldn't see the problems with SR4.

OPTIONAL RULE, for those who preferred it.
As for resistance with one stat... never really had much issue with it at our table, to be honest. There were enough ways around it that it had some impact, but rarely what is described here. Tables are different, though, so...


OPTIONAL RULES in the books can be implemented to fix that issue...


They were weird, to be sure, but not insurmountable. The majority removed the Emotitoys themselves (I know we did)... You wanted the software, you had to get appropriate hardware to run it at capacity. This tended to keep it in line, at least at our table.



I disagree with you here... SR5 fixes SOME of the issues, and introduce a lots more that just make absolutely no sense whatsoever.
Yes, SR4/4A has issues, but no where near the issues SR5 has.

It's like you don't even read what I'm writing, DeathStrobe; or is that an extremely naive attempt at a strawman argument?

I never claimed that 4e was perfect (see my comments on the subject above), but, as I said, to the best of my knowledge it never had rules that contradicted themselves ("troll lifestyle costs are X" here and "troll lifestyle costs are Y" there) or made no sense outside of gamist worldview ("how do legitimate users use the new matrix?" "why do implants need Matrix and not just radio contact to communicate, even if direct cable connections are losttech?" "how do wireless bonuses work for laser sights or extendable batons or clothing boosting Negotiation even over Matrix?" etc etc etc).

While 5e did address a couple problems with 4AE, it added so many more as to be largely unplayable without the GM putting in unproportional effort to houserule its shortcomings away. Minding that this effort will have to undermine the very basic subsystems introduced in 5e and that the new story arcs are hardly engaging (Body snatchers? Yet again? Oh whiz!), the new edition needs something more than decent art to make people switch over.

Actually that is an optional rule. But this optional rules is as often used as the basic rule that partial / full cover gives you spell resistance dices or that there is BGC - it is something a lot of GMs overlook. Granted, F/2+1 would be better for the stunbolt. But the problem is not the stunbolt, it was overcasting with x2 (goes the same for spirit summoning) . We have a houserule where overcasting is +2 and not x2 - and that overcasting issue was not solved in SR5, where a magic 5 mage still have good chances to summon a force 10 combat spirit.

If there are 2 things which SR4 did wrong it was overcasting made so easily and extended tests in often occurring situations.



What about the smartlink or the medkit? Or as in "toy is cheaper than software"? Well, that is certainly something which should have been changed - but it does not warrant a new edition nor is it a big issue. Still a thousand times better than "online silencer, online clubs, online air tanks, online stealth suits".



Really? With what? Cumbersome combat (hit => dodge => soak)? Multiple diceroll necessary for fast hacking? Overcasting x2? Exploding dice pools? Nope. Granted, Str vs Str/2 as base damage for melee combat and the increased damage codes are a big improvement, as are the new hardened armor rules. Except of course if you are playing a drone rigger.

SYL

SR5 could have been a lot better. There are hints, in things like the subtle revisions to the rules for Edge, or regeneration, that show how it could have refined a lot of the problematic areas of SR4. But the problem comes down to the editing. Too many incomplete or contradictory rules, with different writers working at cross purposes, or nerfing something one way without seeing that it has already been nerfed another way. It is marginally better now, but even Run Faster has things like dryads having no additional cost in Priority, but a 50 Karma higher cost in Point Buy or Life Modules. Now, apparently (from what I've heard), the Battletech stuff is supposed to be edited much better, so this problem seems to be exclusively for Shadowrun.

does it really boil down to Editing ?
ImO its the Developing of the Core Rules ! (Editing is a Problem too, sure but I think thats a Symptom of the Sickness, not the Sickness itself )

The whole Idea of trying to Force the Player Chars to use WiFi, the Misconception that SR4A Hackers had nothing to do
in Combat,
The neglection of advises from Testplayers and Freelancer,the fact that JH wrote and published a novel ( which was bound to divert his Attention from SR to his own novel ) and many more Issues show (at least to me) that the developing Head of SR is not at it with all of their Heart/ all of their Attention.
Some of the Rules where a good Idea but than they overshoot the Mark. f.E. Skill lvl 6 in SR4A was not high enough. the Good Idea was to raise it but they overshot it bey raising the Bench to 12
Now this Benchmark of 12 can hardly be reached by normal Chars, it needs to much Karma , Chars generally need more karma and the Skill Lvl of 12 is (ImO) totally in the Domain of NPCs now.
If the Developer would've raised the Skill Benchmark to 9(10) this would've been Perfect.
And there is so many more Points where the Head developers have seen bad SR4A Rules , went 180 ° but then they
overshoot the Mark and the new Rules are just as bad (or even worse) but "in the opposite direction" ( Boy, I hope I made myself clear, this is not easy to explain, not even in German )


with a hopefully clear Dance
Medicineman

No worry. I would have explained it the same way. If you know the german block format it really is not a problem. ^^

Just a heads up... Jason's novel was written like 5 or 6 years ago, before he even became line developer (or at least contracted and probably partially written). It was one of the ones that were planned and announced ages ago, right before Topps ran into issues with Roc over the old novel line and put everything on hold.

Remember how Lagos had a write up in one of the books (Smuggler's Havens, maybe?) and was a featured location in one of the first Dawn of the Artifacts adventure. It was, I believe, initially conceived to synergize with those.

And now, carry on with the hate.

So, Bull, its 2015 ... why do the base core books take so long that we are not even sure that they will be available at the end of 2016 if its not the PDFs, novels, missions or campaigns?

1) Summer 2013 SR5 Release
2) 2014/beginning of 2015 Magic and Guns (without a lot of weapon mods)
3) Maybe Summer 2015 Matrix, maybe later (the announcement sounded like "Yeah, it will be later 2015")
4) Maybe Autumn 2015 Cyberware, maybe later
5) Maybe there will be a Rigger Book 2016, maybe not ...

WHY exactly does it take so long for CORE books?

SYL

I did like the book, I do admit I was a bit hesitant buying it initially, but Hardy wrote a good piece there.

And yeah it would have been a nice tie in even with Feral Cities which had a good bit on Lagos.


Phosphorous Laced Torches ... Check

Memorymetal Pitchforks .... Check

Rent-A-Mob .... Check

Good to go.

Yeah, Bull, what the fuck?! Explain yourself!

Would it break the game if there were no upper limit except at chargen?

I'd say it would be more profitable to starve them of new releases until they switch over...also, 5th is the grognard edition with all its "every was better in 3rd" throwbacks

It wasn't in 3rd ed . .

Counterquestion:
Would it break the Game if the Standard NPCs have a Skill of 12+ and a Pool of 20+ Dice, if the Mary Sue NPCs have Skills of Level 15-20+ and pools of 30+ Dice while the Chars need Dozens of Karma to reach Skills of Lvl 8-10 and get a Pool of 20 Dice ?
If You say No, than my Answer is No too
(as I see it, now only NPCs profit from the High Level Skills ! Unlimited Skill Level would widen the Gap between PCs which have to earn each and every Karma Point and NPCs that can be given any Skill level (and any Pool level ) they need)

with a Counterdance
Medicineman

Highly Subjective Statement, there Stahlseele.
While it was rarely the Skill level that was the problem for high level PC's/NPC's (And to be honest, I rarely saw any beyond mid-level Teens - they were just too expensive), the Karma Pool resulting from spending the Karma to gain such levels renders the argument pretty moot, since they could just reroll till they succeeded.

I know a skill of 12 is something a PC will rarely reach, but it should be very rare among NPC's, too. I know what you are saying, Medicineman, but SR4 had the same problems - they just gave special rules for their legendary NPCs. Or gave them ludicrous levels of initiation, since Magic was not capped. I would rather have a rarely-reached level of skill to logically depict the best of the best NPC's, than see the shenanigans that SR4 had. I can live with 12 as the new limit - I just wish Magic was capped, too.

You can actually reach a rating: 12 skill - at character creation. If you're an adept (magicrun, don't ya know?), that is. Take Aptitude and start out with 7 in a skill, take 4 levels of improved ability (yeah, it rounds differently than in SR4). and take a reflex recorder (which stacks, because SR5 has no augmented limit for skills). Voila, you're a "legend".


SR3 had completely uncapped skills, but it had a different feel. The PC archetypes had lots of skills at 6, while the NPCs tended to have lower stats, with a 7 or an 8 being reserved for the best/toughest of the stock NPCs. A skill of 6 might not have been the maximum, but it was still damn good.

In SR5, it is curious - the archetypes almost look like they were built with SR4 skill caps, but the contacts, wow, lots of high skills. The fixer has a negotiation of 9, and even the beat cop has three 6's in his active skills. It looks like they revised NPC's down to more realistic levels with Run Faster, where they are toned down more. But the archetypes are definitely a lot more like SR4 characters than SR3 characters.

As for delays, I can sorta see why. The downside with an evolving world with 'dates' attached to it is that you really can't keep it static. At the same time, it can be difficult actually writing that storyworld as it evolves. There is a serial nature to this stuff, where the previous stuff is the stuff that current stuff builds off of. It does make swerves (nanotech, etc) more noticeable and we can perceive them as disruptive because we can see it as 'step back' or 'step away' or because we have no idea where things are going its harder to put it into context other than, "so why did I buy all those books again?"

Like I noted, I stepped away from the game pretty much entirely since 2013 when I was last here, and I believe SR5 had just come out. Gamers get fatigue and I imagine the devs do as well.

I do kind of wish we nail down a basic system, then just supplement it with flavor and additional stuff. Like you know how a GURPS or Palladium system is basically going to go, and the world just gets built around that.

Target: Smuggler Havens was released in 1998, and I don't think it mentions Lagos at all. You're most likely referring to the Lagos chapter in Feral Cities in 2008, written by Jennifer Harding.

I'm pretty sure that elfy asshole Critias is too busy writing lame-ass fiction and can't be bothered to write any game rulebooks. So there's that.

Yeah, Feral Cities. I've been on a bad insomnia binge for several days now, so... My critical thinking and memory are slightly fuzzy at this point.

Maybe that's 2 totally disconnected problems? Skill cap just looks a tiny bit absurd in a game with elves. Granted, the karma pool could be a problem, but hardly could compensate for skill advancement. Especially if you played game where the TN would easily and often bounce to 10 or 12.

On topic: as far as I understood it, SR4 went toward shadowrunner being low-level guys, more "beginners" like, and SR5 followed the same way. Hence why the average runner can be outskilled by the average cop.

Actually, it's the other way round. SR4 presented the skill levels runners got out of chargen as "world-class professional", and with a bit of implants and bonuses, you could get to "best of the field" easily. SR5 curbed this nonsense.

I know, but at the same time, everybody was talking about how the game was more "street-level" and all. I just mean it was the stated goal to make shadowrunners lower level guys. So for me, SR5 is a better implementation of this principle.

I also never quite got how you could talk about "world-class professional" for a skill while your performance relied almost as much on your attribute. But the description for the numbers in various skills always was, mmm, arguable in all editions…

Break as in "unplayable"? No.

Break as in "unrefined rule system"? Yes, because there are hard caps for attributes (there were always hardcaps for attributes in every edtion). So while "the strongest man" would be strength 7, the "best sniper" should not be 7 or 12 oder 28 oder 131. You apply the same reasons for an attribute cap to a skill cap: humans can only go so far.

Nothing speaks against hardcaps for "normal human range" skills and it is a philosophical decision if that cap should be lower, the same or higher than attribute caps. I favor 1-6 for normal humans and 1-9 for augmented humans for both, with 7-9 the "wow, world awesome sauce" area (so most humans, including NPCs, would be in the area of 2-6),

############################



Actually not necessarily in the area of expertise and competence (even if it was almost impossible to create a normal, competent soldier with 400 BP - most people were talking about one trick ponies, when talking about the mysterious "ohhhh, skill 7 at start" scenario), but mostly in the area of costs and plausibility.

For example 250k for combat cyberware sounds a lot more grounded in the setting then the infamous prio A in SR3 for 1 million ¥. A hacker who could really hack with low level decks for some hundred ¥ and spending a 5 digit sum for a professional SOTA deck (not milgrade) contrary to "Orange/Red 12/14 host? Without a 6-7 digit Kraftwerk and rating 6+ programs you do not even have to start being a decker".

Or to make it short: smaller numbers, scaling better from squatterware for billionare-ware.



Which breaks of course if you look at the entire package and realize that the street samurai in the basic book uses 650k ¥ for combat cyberware and that the most incompetent and useless decker in the world still needs hardware with a value of two familiy cars at minimum. Or there won´t be any kind of cyber criminality. At all.

Which does not really sound "street level" if my base equipment on squatterlevel could pay my lifestyle for 2 years.


#################################



Well, that was skill rating 8 in SR3, easily reachable with a single digit Karma investment in some cases, otherwise requiring 30 Karma usually - not that much for "Genius" and "world class" per definition. But yes, at least 1 point higher than in SR4.

SYL

In SR5, the overall power is higher than in SR4, it's just that the PC's have relatively less power compared to the rest of the game world. The archetypes which are "street level" reflect the preferences of the people who put them together; there are multiple ways that you can create some fairly powerful characters, without exploiting any ambiguous rules or making one-trick ponies.

Yes, there are only so much that en elve might learn in a lifetime.

More seriously, why should this cap be in the vicinity of the attributes cap? There is only so much karma an unaugmented human can cumulate in a lifetime. How much will you see someone exceed 20 in a skill? (edit: that's not even factoring the training time)




I really don't see how it's more or less plausible in either edition. The definition of shadowrunners was just different in different editions. It was clear in SR3 that despite being (possibly) sinless you were already someone in the business. The archetypes were sold as experienced runners or at least experienced combatants/professionals.

The difference really remains in having 250k or four times more?



While 250k only pays it for 8 months. Honestly, I was just talking about the goal of the systems to explain why now street cops could have 6s in some skills, the max for PC.



Which was indeed stupid (but if you have the SR3 book, the Target Number difficulty table is even more hilarious, 10 being an "nearly impossible" task). But at least, the game system didn't pretend it was true by caping it at 8 .

Indeed, especially if you are only playing around 10-20 years max, have no rules for skill degredation and are using an out of game mechanism for good players (and not a strictly ingame mechanism like learning time without Karma).



For me? Symmetry. But of course other caps are possible. SR5 went for 12, SR4 for 6 (which was too low IMHO).



Same goes for attributes: why caps for attributes? You would probably argue that there is a physical limit to what humans can push themselves. But what about mental attributes? Do the same reason apply for them as well? And would the same reason apply for skills as well (as skills are simply information saved and connected in different parts of your brain)? If yes, hardcaps are ok - just the level of the cap is a matter of discussion.



In some ways yes. In other ways no. You can build a 25 dice one trick gun bunny as a starting character (11 attribute, 7 skill etc), but usually that character cannot do much besides being a world champ with one weapon doing one kind of action. If you want a balanced character, the 400 BP are quite precious, as a even a normal veteran soldier (lets say a sergeant after some tours in "Corporate Court peace keeping missions") can be hard to build with 400 BP if he should still have a decent dicepool (of course nowwhere nere the region of 25 dices).

SYL

Mmm… I assumed you were talking about skill caps from a realistic viewpoint here, ignoring game mechanics. That's quite sad for mundane elves if they have such limitations in shadowrun's world, never to be able to beat the best humans despite their much longer lasting youth.



The link between symmetry and "realism" being?



Indeed, physical attribute caps seem to be biologically induced. That pretty well translates for intelligence, and we could perfectly argue that willpower is linked to the brain, and charisma linked to both your physics and brain. I honestly wouldn't care if Charisma or Willpower were not caped, but the caps makes sense.

The biological limit on skill is definitely not as evident. If skill is limited by an max amount of information in your brain, why isn't there a cap on the number of skills you know? Why isn't there a cap on the knowledge skills you can afford? On the language skills you can have? See the problem here? Why on earth cannot you exchange "brain slots" of those driving 5 skills and armed combat 4 to go from 7 to 8 in your trampoline skill?

I won't go further on, the "realistic" view that skills should be capped doesn't make so much sense. To effectively cap it, it's really sufficient to just implement increased cost (karma and/or time) and diminishing return. Doubling the "world class" professional rating (8 to 16) didn't help you overcome the "nearly impossible" so much more that the cost was worth it (TN10, hitting 3 out 4 times rather than half the time, not factoring the number of success stuff…).

This should highlight the fact than capping is made necessary only by game mechanics, that's to say going from a moving TN to a fixed TN. But let it be noticed that I'm not here criticizing either mechanics. They both have advantages. One support uncapped skills, one doesn't, and that's fine. But I just reject that skill caps, especially when limiting dice pool to what you get out of chargen or twice (more like 3/2) that, are "real life" based.




The original point was that the characters out of SR3 chargen were not "ground based" in the settings I think. I didn't get how it was linked to the 250k vs 1M the first time, I don't get how it's linked to the inability to make polyvalent one trick pony out of SR4 chargen. I once again just said that SR4 aimed to make more street based character, that SR5 went this way too, and that it explained why street cops in SR5 could have better skills than PC at chargen.

@freudqo:

You had (even if the rule was rarely used) to take time to get you're skill up, even if you had the karma.

Raising a SR3 skill from 6 to 7 implied rolling 6 dices at a TN of 14. That alone could take around 3-5 scenarios. It did really slow down the high skill ups to world class level.

I think this adds pretty well to what I said, or am I mistaken? But nevertheless: your number and rule are wrong in my version of SR3 Comp. The TN to hit is 9 (new skill +2), and not hitting the TN just make it longer to learn the skill (assuming attribute 4-6, that'd be base around 100 days, 150 with no successes, and this had to be uninterrupted or it would get even longer). Or has this been erratad? PLUS that's an optional rule. Plus, an optional rule I would, personally, use only in very rare cases…

But indeed, this proves there's perfectly fine way of preventing too much character advancement without adding absurd caps on skills.

Never had an issue with Caps at 6 for skills. In fact, they worked pretty well, in my opinion, you just had to adjust what you considered Professional (which was 3 in SR4).



Depends upon your definition of a "Decent Dicepool."

I guess that's the kind of 'helpful' commenting that got you on my personal list for SR freelancers whom's actions made it easier to decide against further expenditures on the P&P side of the game. Last time I made reference to you being on said list you asked which kind of action got you on that list and I wasn't inclined searching an example.

You do realize that Critias' Statement is very Tongue in Cheek, Yes? It is Sarcasm, at its best.
He isn't seriously calling Bull out there. As was evident by Bull's Response.

Well, you are well known for "one dice only, no problem, can do" A decent dice pool for a player character in an average campaign would be something between 10 and 15 in the main areas) considering both the threshold, opposed tests and ingame explanation what rating means what exactly. Certainly a compromise in some cases.

MfG