Honestly I'm just dubious that SR can recover the ground it's lost to other newer games by introducing a new edition. It might have a strong loyal following but it seems unlikely to move up into the higher ranks of general RPG fandom. These days there are a good number of games that just hold a tighter grip on the marketplace and I'm not sure that a 4th edition will neccesarily change that.
Of course if SR wanted to get the most mass market appeal it would probably do some OGL format but I seriously doubt that most people here want that to be in the future of SR.
Full Version: The up-side of SR4
I'll say this once for myself and the other 30 year old gamers. If SR4 contained absolutely no new rules but a significant improvement in editing and organization we would be exultant. SR has always impressed the hell out of us creatively and will probably continue to even if good art is becoming expensive.
If the new game is organized in a logical fashion so that I do not have to leaf for-&back-wards through each section, it will be money well spent. I don't care about new content, tell me all about how nasty the editors are being about repressing creativity and sending back work for typos and bad gramar. Delay release if you have to playtest it more. Get outside playtesters who have never seen Shadowrun if you think that would help get the errata down to nothing.
All of that said I'm excited that I might have a better ruleset to introduce to new players to the game.
If the new game is organized in a logical fashion so that I do not have to leaf for-&back-wards through each section, it will be money well spent. I don't care about new content, tell me all about how nasty the editors are being about repressing creativity and sending back work for typos and bad gramar. Delay release if you have to playtest it more. Get outside playtesters who have never seen Shadowrun if you think that would help get the errata down to nothing.
All of that said I'm excited that I might have a better ruleset to introduce to new players to the game.
I have played in all three editions of Shadowrun and have found each edition better than the next, always correcting and adding needed details. Third edition also added needed depth to characters by using knowlegde skills, which is great improvement for roleplay.I however dont believe this new edition is for the betterment of the game. I personally think they are taking a page out of D&D's marketing sceme....Take an existing RPG change the rules that way you need to rebuy all the source books. If that is the case then, that freaking bites. It is foul on so many levels.Are they taking a que from the evil Megacorporations they've portrayed?
Why would they have waited so long if that were the case?
Clearly they could have reorganized the books and altered the rules in minor ways, thus spent less money and less time in playtesting.
But they didn't. They've listened to the main complaint from a large group of people (that being the rules are too complex), and have been trying to make a game that is both Shadowrun and streamlined.
And in the meantime they've made SR3 a finished product. They've updated rules about every facet of the world, they've detailed almost the all 6th world, and they've given us enough material to continue playing SR3 for several more years without any of us lifting a finger.
What exactly is evil about that?
I keep hearing that "we won't be able to find an SR3 game" line, and I don't buy it. If you have all the books than you should have no trouble doing so - unless SR4 is that much better, and if you find a group only willing to play SR4 then they'll have the books for you to play it.
Clearly they could have reorganized the books and altered the rules in minor ways, thus spent less money and less time in playtesting.
But they didn't. They've listened to the main complaint from a large group of people (that being the rules are too complex), and have been trying to make a game that is both Shadowrun and streamlined.
And in the meantime they've made SR3 a finished product. They've updated rules about every facet of the world, they've detailed almost the all 6th world, and they've given us enough material to continue playing SR3 for several more years without any of us lifting a finger.
What exactly is evil about that?
I keep hearing that "we won't be able to find an SR3 game" line, and I don't buy it. If you have all the books than you should have no trouble doing so - unless SR4 is that much better, and if you find a group only willing to play SR4 then they'll have the books for you to play it.
Well i'll answer the first question of why wait till now.... To see id D&D could accomplish it in the marketplace....they did.
And, I never specifically said that's what they are doing. I said if that is the case then that bites.I stated a speculation, not an accusation. I also stated that in the past they had added and corrected things to improve the game, which implies that they have performed above expectations in the past. I am hopeful that is the case but, i am severly skeptical of the motivations of presenting the new edition. The new edition will for the avid player of SR cost in the neighborhood of $100.00 to be at the level of playability they are at now, and how much has that player spent already to be at his current level before SR4.Change is good if it is in fact a good thing, and i reiterate my previous statement that if it is changed only for us to shell out more money then that bites.
I am not trying to offend anyone or downplay any of the hard work people put into designing rpg's. My point which i'm sure people are thinking but not posting is the money we will have to spend. It's one thing to start from scratch and build up discovering new things it's a complete other thing to have your collection, that may have taken years to get suddenly be obsolete. In the name of a better Shadowrun game yes, for someone to make more money off of me...hell no
And, I never specifically said that's what they are doing. I said if that is the case then that bites.I stated a speculation, not an accusation. I also stated that in the past they had added and corrected things to improve the game, which implies that they have performed above expectations in the past. I am hopeful that is the case but, i am severly skeptical of the motivations of presenting the new edition. The new edition will for the avid player of SR cost in the neighborhood of $100.00 to be at the level of playability they are at now, and how much has that player spent already to be at his current level before SR4.Change is good if it is in fact a good thing, and i reiterate my previous statement that if it is changed only for us to shell out more money then that bites.
I am not trying to offend anyone or downplay any of the hard work people put into designing rpg's. My point which i'm sure people are thinking but not posting is the money we will have to spend. It's one thing to start from scratch and build up discovering new things it's a complete other thing to have your collection, that may have taken years to get suddenly be obsolete. In the name of a better Shadowrun game yes, for someone to make more money off of me...hell no
Well, I agree with that. My question is what evidence do we have on which to build a case? I've given my observations.
We can only wait and hope they deliver like they have in the past
Unless RPG players are either really stupid or just lazy the rules themselves shouldn't be THE major hurdle. However, the organization of the books is soo atrocious that even if you don't KNOW the rule you still have to look for 10 min to resolve it. Arz is exactly right. The way the rules and the accompanied extra information makes it almost impossible to completely learn because it's not logical in order or presentation. While the mechanics obviously could use some help with the rediculous amount of TN and even more rediculous amount of modifiers, much of that bewilderment could be alleviated at least partially by the editing and organizing of the sourcebooks.
I am in complete agreement with Solstice on this one. One of the things I am hoping to see in SR4 is a reorganization.
It takes so much time just finding a needed ruling on anything it ruins the fun of the game.
My last group when something would come up we just house ruled it on the fly and write down the situation for later and do a proper rules look up after the game. Which would often take up an hour by itself for maybe 5 or 6 rule calls, (and that's with at least 3 people looking things up)
It takes so much time just finding a needed ruling on anything it ruins the fun of the game.
My last group when something would come up we just house ruled it on the fly and write down the situation for later and do a proper rules look up after the game. Which would often take up an hour by itself for maybe 5 or 6 rule calls, (and that's with at least 3 people looking things up)
Yo cats', I think this is what I and everyone else hopefully does to keep game flow intact. However, I'm looking most anxiously for any improvement on this front. I don't think they are out to grab some 
by realeasing a new edition. The rules are not perfect and there will always be room for improvement.
I'd disagree w/ Solstice about TNs though. The modifiers give a good basis for situations without including all of them. It is up to the GM to limit or expand the list. Something I frequently do w/ new players.
I would like simpler, more free flowing rules, but good editing could truly improve SR dramatically since in many ways SR is a very simple system. Hopefully any new rules are smoothly integrated so that everything meshes in an organized fashion.
Good luck guys! You'll need more than that
by realeasing a new edition. The rules are not perfect and there will always be room for improvement. I'd disagree w/ Solstice about TNs though. The modifiers give a good basis for situations without including all of them. It is up to the GM to limit or expand the list. Something I frequently do w/ new players.
I would like simpler, more free flowing rules, but good editing could truly improve SR dramatically since in many ways SR is a very simple system. Hopefully any new rules are smoothly integrated so that everything meshes in an organized fashion.
Good luck guys! You'll need more than that
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