Exactly.


It may be in the rules, but I'd veto that in my personal game and I try not to use rules that I'd personally veto when making a character. The body is dead. At best, your regeneration would keep it the way you found it. On the plus side that applies to a homunculus in my book, too, so they wouldn't go sprouting leaves or any of that other silliness. Do metahumans start reverting in age and eventually becoming a fetus? It'd have to in order to stay in theme with that.

I'm also not convinced about your reference to the lack of preparation being needed. Why even mention it if it's not an issue? Why even have rules for it for general possession if it really only applies to inhabitation? It's also incredibly lame because it means that anyone who plays a mundane character can be fucked over at any time by an astral entity on a whim. And, apparently, there's not a damn thing they could do to stop it. It's also contrary to the whole "you can't affect anything on the physical realm if you're on the astral plane" rule.

That said, I think the "may" in your quote is referring to exactly that. You may possess a vessel that hasn't been prepared, but only if it's astrally active so you can jump into it after cleaning out the spirit that was in there one way or another. Mundane vessels still have to be prepared because you have no other way of accessing the body from the astral. The rest of the context of the rules you quoted (and if you could give a page reference when you do that in the future, that'd be great; took me a while to find it) seems to agree with that assessment. Especially the second paragraph where they give an example of a vessel that doesn't need preparation.


Like you said previously, that's not so much a restriction as an adherence to other character types. And it's only a +3 if you jump into an average human. There's still the plasteel homunculus you referenced, too. At only 15,000¥ at Force 6, that's a whole 3 Karma in the Karma Generation ruleset. Hardly a money sink. It also doesn't cost you any Essence or cause Magic Loss. And they do indeed get +8 to Body, +8 to Strength, and +8/+8 Ballistic/Impact armor. For someone who was so vehemently opposed to cyberlimb armor because it was cheap and didn't impact your encumbrance, it seems a little odd that you're totally okay with that.

And possessing a corpse, no matter how you try to hide the fact, is a recipe for disaster in the hands of any GM worth their salt. An Assessing Test can detect its true nature with a single net hit.

Cool. I never really thought about making a possession-based free spirit.

Possess a different sleeping Joe near the meet every time, and return them to their beds without ever knowing something strange happened. Adds a really nice touch to the character.

EDIT: You can possess unprepared vessels, according to Street Magic p.101. The only thing preparation adds to the mix is a +6 dice pool bonus for the spirit.

Ugh. That's so not right. A lowly Force 4 possession spirit can completely render a typical enemy null and void with a single test. As if possession tradition magicians weren't overpowered enough. Not to mention the whole contrariness of it. If a possession spirit can affect mundanes through their aura, anyone should be able to.

Or an earth elemental.

Force 4 is already quite powerful. I think that an equally powerful materialization-based spirit would easily overpower the enemy/enemies as well.

Indeed. The only real problem is that in BP they are near useless because of the 250 cost, and in karmagen they are overpowered because they don't have a cost.

Thanks, Street Magic is -really- badly laid out for finding info about possession, the rules being spread out over at least 4-5 sections.

And no, 15,000 is 6 karma. Still not a ton, but you then have to pay to have it prepared. Well, don't have to, but that bonus is nice.

And no, people don't deage, but if a spirit with regeneration possessed someone that was wounded (but not dead), it would heal the wound, not simply leave it because that was the state the body was found in. This is basically what happens with the corpse. The regeneration power is trying to heal all the 'wounds' that it has, like decaying flesh, dead skin, and so on.

Oh, and to address the +3 to stats issue... you are paying 250 BP for the race, shouldn't there be... you know, like some advantages? Like some easy stat points?

Edit: And aren't all mundanes basically screwed by magic at any point anyway? No mundane has a prayer of resisting a spell or fighting off a spirit. I don't see being possessed by a spirit being all that much worse than having one materialize next to you and beat the crap out of you.

True.

I don't think karmagen's free races are really meant to include free spirits and other high-cost character options. I don't use karmagen myself (my group uses BPs for character development), but if I did I would probably houserule some cost to 'special' character races.

250BP is steep, but spirit characters usually allow for some fun roleplaying.

I am so mathematically challenged with those damn rules. 5k/point standard, 2.5k/point KG... <chants to self>


I was basing it off of the rest of the description, about how a wooden homunculus begins to sprout leaves. Which is pretty ridiculous. If it happens to them, the same thing should happen in any other biological body.


We were talking about Karma Generated characters. There is no 250 BP cost.

Regardless of the divergence, I still don't see them as being very viable. At least in the types of games I prefer. You either have a homunculus which is going to get you all kinds of negatives in your day to day life (despite assurances to the contrary) and make you an easy target to track when the shit hits the fan, or you have a corpse for a skinride that's going to get you hunted the first time someone worth a damn assenses you and has every right to see you as a major Magical Threat (say hello to that new Draco Foundation bounty on your head), or you're completely shitting upon the balance of the game in that astral entities can't affect physical beings at will. Nevermind the free stat bonuses, especially in the way of the craziness of plasteel homunculi.

Right, because a homunculus that is wearing covering clothing (you know, like all metahumans tend to do) is going to stand out so much. Heck, if a mannequin from the local store started moving and walking around, with its face covered and a hat on, I can assure you that most people would have a heck of a time telling it apart from a normal human without actually touching it or getting up close to get a -really- good look at it.

I keep saying the corpse thing isn't something you walk around day to day doing, but you love ignoring that completely.

And no, you aren't really shitting on the game balance, because what happens is that they materialize, but just happen to materialize inside of you. If you don't allow for possession spirits to possess non-prepared vessels they quickly become near useless. The only thing they could ever ever do in a fight is possess the person who summoned them (who would have to burn time turning on astral perception). They couldn't possess an enemy, they couldn't even possess a chair or something, and thus they could never affect a fight in any way because they would be completely barred from the physical plane.

Like I said, the rules of magic are already set up so that mundanes are totally screwed over by even the slightest amount of magic, so I don't see why possession spirits should be the opposite. And it isn't like it is an entirely free possession, there is at least an opposed test. Wait, I can already hear it "Oh, but that is nearly impossible to beat a spirit in." Well gee, guess what, it is also nearly impossible to stop a mage taking over your brain, your body, or stun bolting you into next week.

If you had a possessor with Regeneration, could it-- after a particularly bad run-- possess each of the runners on the team and heal them completely in a matter of seconds?

No reason it couldn't. It should be noted however that this particular power costs 5 spirit power points, which are equal to a spirit's edge. So most if not all of a spirit's resources could go into just getting the regeneration power. This is part of the reason I don't have a problem with there being a benefit as small as making a corpse seem like it is alive again.

I don't know why you're getting so upset about this. It's all my opinion. And for once I'm trying to stay pretty rational about it, too.

And no, I don't think someone who walks around everywhere with a mask on is going to blend in very well. It's also not going to do much against thermographic vision or sensors, astral perception, MAD scanners, cyberware scanners, or any of the other countless other detection methods where they'd stand out like a sore thumb. A fully masked and cloaked figure is going to draw stares and suspicions based solely on that fact alone, too. Especially if they ever have to go anywhere that isn't a seedy bar to meet with a Johnson.

It also doesn't matter if the corpse thing isn't something you walk around day to day doing. Do it once and it's enough to get a bounty on your head. Shedim and petro hougans are really high on the magical threat list. It's like saying "I'm just going to walk around town with a dirty bomb, but it's okay because it's not going to be a day to day thing." The second it's detected, you're on somebody's shit list within the hour.

I also completely disagree about the possession bit. It is shitting on the rules, especially if you just read the description of what the spirit is doing. All they have to do is touch your aura and you're screwed. You have no defense whatsoever against it. Even if your buddy has Counterspelling, that's not going to help. With a mage, you can at least shoot him in the face if he starts casting spells at you or your buddies. With a possession spirit, nearly the entire planet is their bitch. And it's very much contrary to both the nature and the spirit of the magic rules no matter how you try to rationalize it. They're an astral form that gets to attack physical subjects.

Such spirits are also not screwed that way. They're just limited to vessels that actually have a chance to defend themselves (ie, astrally active magicians or other dual-natured beings), or have to work to prepare proper vessels either through making deals with the aforementioned types of characters or doing it themselves once they do secure a body. Being able to choose anyone they wish on a whim is absurd.

I don't think any of my characters, new or old, would ever agree to let a spirit take them over like that no matter how much it helped. Now granted I am talking about characters who do not summon possession spirits would not allow a possession spirit to enter them. I do not control it so why would I think it would leave after it was done healing me. I see what it can do to others when it takes them over so that would be a worry also. Hay Jimmy Free Spirit take over that guard and shoot at the rest of them. "Bang" "Bang" "Bang" OK they are dead, oops this body is full of holes...

Free unlimited healing is pretty good. Not even healing the runners, although it seems like that would be the bell rung the most in game. Just charge people half what they'd pay for a hospital stay and heal them of their debilitating injuries in about 12 seconds. It's better than the wealth power.

Good point, there is a huge trust issue with having the spirit possess you just to patch you up. So while it is a viable option, many characters would be unlikely to want the spirit to take them over.

Edit: Oh, and I was talking more about summoned possession spirits than free possession spirits. They'd be virtually unable to help the summoning mage besides possessing him, as most mages don't go into combat astrally preceving. And duel natured creatures are basically as screwed as anyone else, because a spirit can move a few hundred miles an hour, so he could run up and touch you to possess you well before you could do anything about it.

Anyway, you can play your way in disregard of what the rules say if you want. It doesn't really affect me any. I'll just keep it in mind if I'm ever playing in a game with you to not try and play possession mage/spirit.

I would think that discerning between a free spirit and a shedim would be a simple task for anyone assessing the body. As every other Voodoo-magician will be having their personal zombies picking up their groceries (okay, I may be exaggerating a *little*) I don't think possessing a corpse will be a kill-on-sight kind of deal.

As to possession in general... You do have a defense roll. Granted, it's not much more than a mundane person gets for resisting a spell, but it's something. And a regular Joe is pretty much screwed against a relatively powerful spirit of any kind. I think the two traditions are pretty well comparable to eachother, and really there isn't much of a practical difference between the two.

But if you want to have an extra layer of protection, I saw a houserule somewhere that allowed a magician use banishing against possession in the same way that you use counterspelling against spellcasting. I think that might be a pretty balanced mechanic.

Or would be if anyone took Banishing. Just sayin'.

You're exaggerating a lot, actually. People fear magic and thus there's some pretty harsh measures out there intended to deal with it. In the UCAS ownership of things like high end foci, particularly the offensive sort, is a criminal offense regardless of what you actually use them for, and the use of magic in a felony automatically jumps your offense to premeditated. Hell, in Great Britain, you're required to register and provide a tissue sample they can keep on file. Sending a wickerman out to fetch the groceries is one thing, but trotting out a walking corpse is quite another; people are going to wonder where the corpse came from, if nothing else.

Well, when a mommy and daddy corpse really like one another...

My opinions and views don't have any impact on other people's games. When I'm a player, I'll abide with the rules of the game just fine. I don't have to like 'em or agree with 'em to do that. Hell, I'm tinkering with a possession Free Spirit on and off again even now just to see how it turns out.

See, it is an addicting little prospect.

Edit: Only problem like I said is that BP makes them too weak and Karmagen makes them too strong.

To balance it out you could go with the new SR4A karmagen rules with stats being x5 instead of x3, and use the houserule (which I heard was going to be an official errata at some point) of races costing their cost in karma (So not free, and not the full double cost).

I've also seen a house rule to go with having a cost for race of "Buy stats with karma as if starting at 1, then adjust them for racial modifications." This stops a troll having to spend tons of karma just to get up to racial averages.

Personally it seems like if you make those three adjustments, karmagen is much more balanced with the BP system.

I'd wager more people would find Banishing useful if it could prevent Possession.
*shrug* I'm not running with the houserule, so I can't vouch for its merits. `twas just an idea.

You just made my day

Whipstitch: Quite right. But I maintain that as long as the spirit doesn't appear menacing to the mundane population (for example, because of regeneration), possession isn't such a big deal.

Agreed. If it looks like a normal person, no reason for it to suddenly stand out. And not much reason for a mage to assense every normal person walking around.

Oh, and as for homunculus being easily detected by thermographic and a few other systems, you're right, it would be pretty easy to tell that the person likely isn't normal, but they could also be wearing armor with that thermographic resistant ability in it. As for setting off a MAD scanner, well what runner wouldn't set one of those off? I'm not saying that under scrutiny, the homunculus would have much chance of passing for a normal person, but the guards certainly aren't going to notice the difference while under fire. And they certainly aren't going to be any easier to track down. They don't have hair or skin or fingerprints or anything else to track them down with, and when you get back home, you just leave it in the basement for a while and there isn't much of a way to track it down at all.

You are also right about a covering mask being odd in day-to-day situations, but a latex mask would make the face look real, and any oddity with the eyes could just be because of cybereyes. Wear gloves, shoes, long pants, and long shirts, and a homunculus is going to look really human to the casual observer.

Of course, the thing we didn't mention yet is that without Masking it's quite obvious that it's a spirit possessing a body, and not just a regular guy.

But a spirit possessing someone shouldn't (by my understanding) raise any more eyebrows than a materialized spirit.

EDIT: ...or should it? The spirit is using someone else's body, after all... I'm gonna have to think about this

I would disagree, but only because I think the natural assumption is that most possessions are unwilling.

Distinctive Style gives up to a +6 dice bonus on tracking someone down. "Hey random guy, you see a big guy walk past her fully cloaked and wearing a mask?" "Oh yeah, fucker creeped me out. He went thattaway." Not everything is magical. And yes, I maintain that running around cloaked and masked 24/7 definitely counts as a major Distinctive Style. Even a Latex Face Mask isn't going to help that much unless you also happen to have a suitably high Disguise skill to take advantage of it. And since it's going up against Perception + Intuition, which is probably the single easiest dice pool outside of Social Skills to boost, your odds aren't that good of passing it off. If anything, you're just going to be even more memorable as that "creepy guy with the even creepier face."

MAD scanners aren't often used in the middle of a firefight so much as, I dunno, entering a building or even a decent store. God forbid it's even a remotely secure area. And when you do set one off, that invites closer inspection. It's dirt cheap and readily available. There's no reason at all they won't be all over the place, along with Cyberware Scanners and most others. I believe the description for sensors in the gear section even mentions just how common they are. Legwork takes up most of a (good) Shadowrun game. This kind of character is gonna suck at that part in particular.

I'm actually kind of upset that you didn't come to the easiest conclusion. Well, less upset and more disappointed. All Free Spirits are magicians. The one real perk a Possession Free Spirit has is that they can actually use foci without the worries that a Materialization one does. So for the cost of a single spell and an Illusion Sustaining Focus you have a Physical Mask spell that can simulate the whole kit and kaboodle with only a few relatively rare type of sensors that can see past it.

So disappointed. <clicks his tongue>

Remember that without the Realistic Form power Spirits have an ethereal or unworldly nature that gives them away regardless of what they appear to be; putting a mask and a trench coat on a run-of-the-mill spirit's form is basically about as effective as hanging a lampshade on their head. That's why you need the Realistic Form power to materialize as something normal or to appear unremarkable when joined to a vessel. It's part of why Insect Spirits are so bloody dangerous compared to other magical threats; Insect Queen Inhabit people and gain Realistic Form and Aura Masking by default if they achieve a flesh form merge, at which point they are a real nightmare to deal with.

What's to say your "every day" homunculus can't be something that stands out less. How about one that just has a plastic skeleton and a latex rubber skin. Like one of those "Real Dolls." I don't think that would grab too much attention but your also dropping 5k on it so it should be better.

Again though, your real doll will still give people the heebie jeebies, for lack of a better term.

Respirators are quite common, due to pollution - in fact, anyone who can grub the nuyen together that actually cared about their health probably wouldn't be outside without one, unless they had sprung for tracheal filters or the like. Sunglasses are common, and add a hat and a nice lined coat (for the constant rain, don't you know?) and some gloves and you're effectively quite hidden without attracting any undue attention.

Knight Errant Officer: [shows a picture of a guy in a coat, hat, sunglasses, and wearing a respirator.] "Hey, did you see this guy come by in last 10 minutes?"

Bystander: [shrugs] "Like 50 of them, omae. Good luck with that."

Who said the homunculus had to be big? And who said anything about cloaked? A lined coat is absurdly common amongst runners, so that certainly wouldn't stand out. And even if someone saw that a latex mask was fake, they'd just know that they were waring a mask, not what they really looked like. Sure bonuses are easy to get, but joe average doesn't have enhanced perception or anything like that. He has 3 int and defaults on the test because he has 0 ranks in perception. So he has 1 die to spot your disguise. Oh, and don't forget that he is likely distracted (Chatting with somoene in AR, checking out the latest Battle Brawl scores, enjoying their own little AR universe, talking with work, whatever) for a -2 penalty.

Spirits don't give off a 'bad vibe' but the form they inhabit does look odd. But you're already talking about something odd which your covering up, so it may not really be needed. You could easily argue that the affects of the spirit possession would be noticeable through clothing, so you'd need realistic form anyway, which I'm cool with.

It is true that a focus with physical mask would be a good idea, but a latex mask works really well and costs way less. And yeah, MAD scanners are going to be a problem for the homunculus, but like I said, it is a problem of some extent to most every runner. Cybersam isn't getting through the MAD scanners either. Nor is mister 'anyone who has a gun'. A gun can be discarded, but good luck getting rid of your ware to walk through a scanner.

very much agreed. Throw a latex mask on under that so that the parts that do stick out are at least flesh colored, and boom!

Yes, people might question it a bit if they see through the disguise but even then there is plenty of news in SR of Free Spirits. So some mundane's may shrug it off to a free spirit trying to fit in. You are forgetting that many people in the SR universe suffer from "someone-else’s-problem-field" and are quickly desensitized to the strange. Hell, many people now a days have that same problem. "If it does not affect me I don't care" mentality.

It does give an idea of a "face" type character. A free spirit with many different shells it can drop itself into and be a different person every day. Gives new meaning to changing clothes.
"Man, camo does not go with this shells eyes. Now I am going to get a new suit. No, I'll just switch to a different shell."
Would work better if the spirit has some psychology and acting skills to go along with it.

:EDIT:
It is interesting how this topic went from problems with Attunement to getting Spirits to fit in.
:EDIT:

Well, Dr. F put in the mention of character concepts that weren't used very often in general, and someone brought up free spirits due to their massive BP cost, then I mentioned that they were viable but overpowered in karmagen, and mentioned a spirit of my own that I'd made in the past which was a possession spirit that used corpses, worshipers, random people, and homunculus to interact with others, then Dr. F put up all these reasons that three of those wouldn't really work, which we've been working out in order to determine if a possession based spirit is really viable or not. If they can't possess anything without the entire world suddenly knowing they're there and thinking they're shedim then they obviously aren't viable.

No, I understand how we got to this point. I just thought it was funny to see the topic go for two pages on Attunement then have almost two pages of spirits fitting in. Reminds me of the "phone" game we used to play in grade school.

I love that game. My hearing sucks so I always had trouble catching what the person would tell me.

It is funny to see how it shifted though, you're right. All on one page for me still though

4 pages for me, I never bothered to change the basic layout. I don't usually spend alot of time here as my low post count tells. When I do it is usually because things get quiet at work and I can kill some time here.

Regarding the fear of possession spirits taking over anyone willy-nilly, don't forget that the Possession Test involves spirit Force X 2 vs. the potential vessel's WIL + INT. So that dreaded Force 4 spirit a few posts up has a 50% chance of failing against a decent runner. (Oh. You skimped on INT and WIL to beef up AGI and REA? Sucks to be you.) Yes, ordinary mundanes are easier pickings. But then, they are easy pickings for just about anything.

Heh. I usually just changed whatever it was that was said to something really blooming random just to throw a wrench in the works.

Passing your spirit's Regeneration powers around the party like a peace pipe has limited viability.

1) It will FUBAR anyone with any form of implant that isn't Delta grade.
2) It will not regenerate magically induced forms of damage (e.g. spell damage, drain, etc).

I get Funk's point - but there's plenty of anecdotal stories of regular people being Possessed. But this means that game balance is really skewed.

- J.

EDIT: Ignore below if you like, All points wer covered further down in the topic... Apologies... Should have looked before posting

Point 1: At that point, you are not using rules as written, you are using house rules... which is the issue here... according to the rules, the Possession works just fine, and regeneration will restore a dead body to full lifelike qualities... just because you don't LIKE the rules does not mean that the don't exist... it is a personal bias on your part, not the games.

Point 2: As for vessel preparation, see page 101 Street Magic, for the mechanical details... Vessel preparation adds +6 dice to the test... if it is not prepared, it adds no dice and is thus easier to resist... That is the benefit of preparation of the vessel...

Point 3... Homoculous... In Karmagen 15000 Nuyen is 6 points of karma not 3 (it is 3bp)... nitpik, but hey, you inspire it...

And Point 4, Realistic Form will make the dead body appear to be unremarkable, certainly not dead looking in combination with the Regeneration power... it will appear as a normal Joe possessed by a spirit, when viewed on the astral, and as a normal joe on the physical... so your argument fails here as well...

Just wanted to point out a few flaws in your logic... If they have already been covered, well, apologies, but there you go...

Keep the Faith

But then, it is only a Distinctive Style if you take it as such...

And MADS only detect magnetic anomolies... Plasteel Bad... Flesh okay... so no real issues here... heck, even a Plasteel Homonculous coulds be mistaken for a conversion borg... which is not all that unheard of...

And you are right... Free spirits are Magicians... and are darn useful in that regard...

Keep the Faith