I doubt it... But it does bring up a subject I've been wondering about... The Tzitzimime are the evil/hellish creatures from the evil/hellish outer Metaplanes, right? Well, is there a good/angelic creature from a nice/heavenly outer Metaplane? Or, are we stuck with the bad only, and we're the "nice" ( ) world? That kinda seems more Shadowrun like... But, as far as I know such a "heavenly" place has never been mentioned.

Yes but that doesn't change what I wrote.

- J.

people, take a look at real life disney...

on the outside, they are selling high concentrations of sugar and love...

but inside, they are one meat grinder of a company. Get on their wrong side and you will be shitting lawyers for years...

basically, horizon are masters of public spin control.

there are probably multiple shell companies, think thanks and astroturfing orgs out there that they can call on, maybe even put one against another to basically drown the issue in noise until the public gets bored and starts looking at some super model scandal (perfectly timed based in psychological studies and long term experience).

it may be started by some post-deus AI (or group of AI) that found the overt path of deus may not be the right way to go about it. OR it may be a mega-pr company, that employs TMs and AIs to do large scale datamining on all kinds of subjects, feeding into social psychological models and similar about how and where to talk or shut up to get the desired outcome.

it all should be hinging on the meme concept. If one can model and predict how a game of telephone will distort a message, and then scale it up to the scale of a local community or even nation, things can become coldly "newspeak" without being overtly "judge dread" about it.

i may go so far as to speculate that horizon, and the recent replacement of lone star, is a move from overt 60s-80s billy club style "control", and more recent opinion farming. Divide and conqueror on the social level, not the physical level. The dystopia have shifted from jackboots to 1984.

Disney is the spawn of Satan. Walt designed his company to be competitive, hard, and capable while delivering an environment safe and suitable for the whole family and taking care of it's employees. Cruel and unforgiving was not in his original formula. But, c'est la vie, you build it, or birth it; from then on it is it's own animal, just like having kids. One thing I will say for Disney, their imagineers are among the best engineers in the world, to bad they're working on insignificant crap. They get payed well, though.

This is fucking hilarious

We're all here trying to decide which meme to swallow.

The new Horizon is good meme

or the old, You can't be a mega without being evil meme.

Sweet! Good job Devs.

Yeah! I wish the devs can outright say "Horizon is controlled by a Toxic Blood Mage Mystic Adept Immortal Elf" so that we can go back to complaining about the direction the Shadowrun universe is taking again. *grin*

I am just throwing this out there, I think it Horizon would be more interesting if any place in our current world that has some sort of reputation as a entertainment and/or culture center would be somewhere Horizon has a office of sorts. Bollywood, Hollywood, Hollywood North (East & West), Fashion capitals, Las Vegas Shows, Japanimation... *shrug* I hope that makes some silly sense.

I notice you say 'any other' as though Bugs aren't a uniquely Shadowrun thing (Earthdawn borrowed them from us!) I'm pretty sure the Enemy is from about the same time, actually.

anyway, it's important to remember that SR came first and included ties to a previous age of magic (the 4th world) long before the 4th world became a game setting; I guess you could still hate any ties back to it, but it's part of the meta of SR regardless of whether we like it or not.

Personally, I like it.


As for being a good megacorp, at least in the old US, modern UCAS (outside of Seattle who mostly goes their own way anyway) Ares was generally considered the good guys - and they probably are, really. Detroit is one of the few cities in the sixth world that's *better* than it is today.

Of course, in the case of Detroit, that's not saying much. *rimshot*

Hey, at least their no longer the murder capital of the world, last I heard, that was Caracas, though the murder capital of the U.S. is Chicago, which is also the gun control capital of the U.S.

A coincidence? I doubt it. An armed populace is a safe populace. Nobody wants to rob the little old lady who lives on the corner when everybody knows she's old, has nothing to lose, and carries a gun. Hoooraahhh, grandma! Don't take no shit from these fucking swine!

The so-called Murder Capital of the US ™ is a rotating list of cities, and not necessarily a single one. Depending on what year you are surveying, it could be Oakland, Baltimore, St. Louis, Washington DC, New Orleans, Detroit, Gary (where I used to live), etc. In any case, Damien Knight could take a dump on some areas of Detroit and that section would be marginally improved.

Next in this thread: CEO droppings, sold on eBay! Which is worth the most? My money is still on Lofwyr.

First of all, let me say I'm proud to be writing here-- I've read for a bit and you all seem very insightful.

I'm going to metagame more than a little bit, but I'm going to say that Horizon is a company using ethical means for a self-serving gain.

Why do I say that? Largely literary differences. The transition to SR4 from SR3 reads to me like a transition from traditional cyberpunk (a la William Gibson's Neuromancer series) to post-cyberpunk (a la Neal Stephenson's Snow Crash).

The largest differences between the two is that in post-cyberpunk, corporations are treated less as monolitich entities focused solely on profit and more as individual companies with individual ambitions, agendas, goals, etc. In short, corps that aren't going to sell you short because it goes against their long term agenda, which, yes, is probably based on profit (i.e., the Mafia's sponsoring of Y.T. in Snow Crash, and for non readers, the Mafia IS a corporation in Snow Crash).

I think that for the SR writing staff, Horizon represents sort of that new wave. They aren't interested in destroying the world or enriching Lofwyr or killing bug spirits... They've got an agenda based around making money off of helping people. That's a market that's being largely ignored in the SR world. I'd also like to mention they're doing good things with education and humanitarian aid-- two other areas largely neglected by the other AAAs.

Are they really good, or really evil? I don't know, but personally... I think a good corp would be interesting in the SR world. It isn't inconceivable, someone stands to profit from good deeds...

But these are just the thoughts of a noob.

EEEEeeeewwwwwww...

Whatever floats your boat...

Yeah, I know. We're all a bunch of disfunctional whack jobs... I checked 2009. Most of those cities are places where the Powers That Be^TM don't like the gun carrying self-sufficient types (like me). But hey, whatever.

The Tir is in on it, but so is Pueblo. In what areas do these two States have mutual interests?

LordHaHa

Much of that is what I was going to point out as well. There's money to be made through making people, if not happy, content.
And yeah, the strong hand only works in in a non-democratic society. Ever since union busting failed in the 1920s those folks who run the show figured out that you control people by controlling what they think. The addition of Horizon by the Devs could easily enough be a nod to the increasing importance of democracy in the narrative. That and to account for the importance of mass media and plots revolving around such like the "On the Run" plot. (BTW, in that plot Horizon sends a strike team out to rip off some data. Not exactly good guys there.)

Now, Horizon is run on the idea of the gestalt. They manage ideas in a "survival of the fittest" style meme pool. Their whole business model relies on monitoring the health of the collective mind, so they're definitely against anything socially disruptive like working with horrors and attempting massive coups. That sort of stuff hurts their bottom dollar. No one wants entertainment when their house is on fire. And Insect Spirits? Seems like the people fronting this business are way too out in the open for that to be the case. Bugs run away when the lights get turned on them, they don't break out the hat and cane. It doesn't fit. Great Dragons and IEs fit alright since their objectives match pretty well with the whole "maintaining the status quo" thing. In fact, the real scary thing about Horizon's meme works is when they try to cut their costs by just recycling culture and ideas ad infinitum, thereby keeping the majority of human civilization stagnant and mentally lazy. You know, sort of like how Michael Bay does it. Hell, the whole music and movie industry of today is pretty damn evil, without having to resort to a totalitarian grip in order to exploit, con and control. Sure, they're not making nerve gas, but they're still bastards.

And I was considering bringing up the comparison that Horizon was essentially the Templars and Abstergo from Assassin's Creed. I'd be surprised if, from the first one anyone would classify the Templars as a good thing. Generally destroying free-will is considered a -bad- thing.

Also, Assassin's Creed II is better than the first in just about every way.

--



If it wasn't for some of the nicer areas of Michigan, I'd hazard to guess that Michigan is better off in the sixth world than it is right now.

--



Horizon is the benevolent dictator. The benevolent dictator is no less evil than any other dictator, they're all tyranny and I find tyranny to be evil. It suppresses freedoms and liberty. They just happen to appear more good because they do things that are misconstrued as good, such as providing A, B, or C for everyone. It creates complacency and dependency.

Is Horizon really all that different from Fiona's company in Josie and the Pussy Cats?

If PCs tend to follow their player's point-of-view, it looks like Horizon is well on their way to establishing themselves in a very positive light in the world of the 2070s. And at this point, my guess is that any dirty Horizon secrets that come to light could easily be glossed over with a "Rogue Manager" defense (ie. Nick Leeson & Jérôme Kerviel).

<Old-time lurker here>

IMHO, Horizon's evil. As in flesh-crawling, childhood nursery-rhyme recited in a dark and bloody room evil.


Not from what it's done - ignoring at the moment that they are avowed experts in "Putting a good face" on things - but their MO indicates a need of control that rivals the Big A.

Land and biologicals/Pharma.
Who here played Queen Ephoria? One of the interesting hooks (That was subsequently ignored) was that Invae nectar was delicious and a brilliant stuffer. Ok, get a queen (as Ares have done, it's old hat now) and keep her amused and supplied enough to produce delicious all natural, non-toxic, healthy junk food. That is comparible in addiction to that of the Stuffer Shack Nukeit's..?
And maybe a few little additions that aren't excreted by the body very fast and, say, accumulate, the end compund adding to a feeling of well-being and compliance? People think with their stomach.
Yeah....Don't like that one fraggin' bit.

Education:
God, data-mining, mind-moulding, demographic disposition, "new history"(Propaganda) and most importantly, psychological conditioning/exploration. They're not Horizon Corp, they're the guys that supplied your school books and took you on that boring class excursion, but then you got to go on a better one..Kids remember that stuff. And it's bypasses the "Good/Bad" filters because it is so pervasive. They make some mean munchies too. Hmm....yeah, one sec....gotta get me something....
Horizon's a company about levers.
And discovering/using more of them.
It's just that a lot of these are in your head and they're actively trying to make more.


Media:
The tip of the iceberg...and if anything's lacking substance, this is it.
Media is image, style and saleable "product" to demographics that will do return business. Yes, glittering glamstars and action-heavy scenes attract the crowds, but they are a hook. You want to see Susie Sammy, Street Machine for Hire? Check out her new sitcom/romcom/acticom with a few familiar friends ("Whoa, Trogmaster?! Where'd they find the cash to get him on as a reoccuring character?!")...it's all hooks and glamour. (As in the spell).

The fact that an ex-star is the CEO undermines all credibility that he's actually not a puppet. Dragons, yes, chance-in-a-billion longshots, yes, scary and evil old men, oh yes (I'm looking at you Miles) family, yes, cutthroat competition, yes....but a movie star? Even if he ponied up the working capital along with various spin machines and producers, it'd take a strategic genius to even get it to AA, let alone AAA status. This isn't Simstar rent-a-shoots, this is "Can sit at the table with Ares and the rest without being slapped and told to go outside".

Ok, a Puppet, but to whom?
AI, well, maybe, but they've got cred now. Boooor-ing.
Insects? Possible, and frankly, considering some of the directions they're going in, Insects MAY be used.
Dragons: Sheesh. By now, it's obvious that the big L is the only Megacorp Dragon. Other's have "interests" but seem to lack the sheer wheels-within-wheels of the big red meanie. That, and he seems to sort to slap around another Dragon for sniffing about his plans. (Dragon butt-sniffing & Dominance display, you should remember Dunkie kept out of the Lofer's schemes, and vice-versa (to a degree))
Special-interest groups: Oh, come now. Seriously. MOM/Greenwar/Immortal elves taking over the world? I'd vote BatBoy first.

How about something other. Something not really dealt with but brushed on previously.
Not a single point of "yeah, that's wrong" but a combination of things that all combine into something wrong. A big gumbo of Evil. Evil that get's bigger from it's own gravity.
Aggregate Evil.

So, name the players, skeptic!
1: SK's, not AI's. These SK's are able to collect, sort and find info. And as of Sr3, there are reports of SK's in the wild, repairing and recoding...how horrible to think that LOLCats is responsible for another megacorp. And the meme collection/refinement...that's getting a little weird...
2: Winternight: The god chips and amazing advances in weapon technology didn't spring whole from someone's head. And their psychological stuff was top-notch. Not all of it could have been lifted from the Men in Grey, DEUS and <handy plot device here>
3: Sprits: Some have agendas alien to all of which we know. And that start-up cash.....
4:Horrors. Ick, ok, mana-spike and elves immortal aside...unlikely. They (mostly) lack the nouse to humanity that makes Horizon so creepy. But the slow infiltration does smack of something with a different time frame, these damn humans though, trying to speed things up...
5: Non-human intelligence. Uh....merrow and dolphins...hmmm, no. Aliens? Don't make me come over there. Echos in the machine....maybe, but only as an influence. The Dissonance? Too focussed. The Resonance? Same.


To sum up, at this point, not much has been said...and says a lot.
Horizon remains unholy whispers in the dark, wrapped in a toothpaste commercial with a gameshow host.

Look out for your next world-bashing event soon!
Brought to you via Horizon. (Replay at 11pm MST, TIVO "Doom")

Tir.

Hestaby is a perfect choice to head up the Liberal Conspiracy. She's based out of Portland, just like Horizon's PR branch, (which apparently failed to protect the princes from being overthrown and the Tir opened to a new, inclusive democracy. Oops.) She, herself, is all about image and managing PR, so there's a good fit there. Finally, she had her own Otaku tribe, so horizon's interest in Technomancy mirrors her own.
Also, she's proven that she's not scared of Lofwyr as much as the rest. She had him ousted from the Tir council and took his place with no backlash or open display of tribute.

Hehehe, you just reminded me of "Back to the Future", when Marty goes back to the 50's and meet past Doc Brown, and when he starts asking about the future and who the USA's president is on 1985, Marty answers Reagan, and Doc goes "Reagan the actor? HA!"

Or the Governator.

"No wonder it's broken. This part was made in Jap-an".

The fluff indicates that Charisma Associates (Horizon's PR machine) was called into the Tir AFTER the elven princes were deposed and the sole ork Zincan was left in charge of the mess. The shadowtalk in that section indicates that Hestaby called in Charisma Associates.

Honestly, Horizon's CEO position seems to be more of a public face and figure-head than a corporate position of power, magnified by the (lack of) corporate hierarchy in Horizon. It even says in Corporate Enclaves: "Mr. Cline is a test-marketed proven commodity designed to have a broad base appeal in a number of key demographics. "

Well then. She calls their PR department in to help with the entire reorganizing of the Tir's society and they relocate their headquarters to her doorstep. That's a major commitment. You know, acting as her hand to help build her liberal nation. I'd say that implies a foundation of trust or at least a level of intimacy with their inner workings..

Or it could be she threw a ton of money at them and offered them extra-territoriality or at least as clsoe as one comes within the Tir. Don't forget, for some unknown reason every single Great Dragon has more or less unlimited fiscal resources.

This has always bothered me, how do the GD's get all those resources, I mean I know that with their level of magical ability summoning some spirits with the wealth power isn't out of the question but still....

dragons == hoards...

Didn't Lofwyr buy SK with a brick of orichalcum? Or something like that?

iirc, it was a massive lump of gold...

btw, it comes to mind that dragons, especially greats, loves to play mindgames.

so moves like lofwyr's could be a kind of FUD, in that one starts to wonder how deep dragon pockets really are, making one worry if one can take them on, and may hold resources in reserve that could basically mess up a dragons plans if deployed.

Oi Chums,

If there is one thing that sticks out in these post is that people are saying Horizon is "Good" or Horizon is "Bad" with all the usual suspects behind the curtain. Chip truth Omaes...all the AAA's bottom line is the almighty . The whole Horizon Group reminds me a bit of the Pacific Prosperity Group with a little more cohesion creating one entity. All this fuzzy stuff about employees encouraged to develop their talents and the Corp sharing in the fruits of their labor, just another carrot at the end of a big stick for the poor slags working for them. Horizon is a AAA just like the others not good or bad just in it for profit and willing to scratch a back or put a knife in one just the same.

Most dragons would have a collection of relatively 'worthless' knick knacks left over from a bygone pre-prehistory. Sell a couple dozen of those to museums and you're good.

Previous Editions also occasionally mention in passing that dragons had agents who took care of business for them in the downtime - even a modest investment portfolio looks pretty good if you run it from the invention of banking to today...

...combine the two with the fact that the dragon's talons, scales, and waste are all very valuable ritual materials and the dragon is likely a walking, talking cash machine.

That's sort of beside the point though. Even as an organization hired to her purposes, she would have to trust them. A Great Dragon wouldn't throw that kind of scratch at a group it hadn't infiltrated enough to guarantee certain safeguards. The implication of intimacy is still there. Not to say, "Hestaby made Horizon" but there's little sense to the idea that she doesn't own enough of their voting stock by proxy to have access to their board's minutes and their financial data. A GD is cautious and controlling by nature.

The Orange Marm has got hooks in Horizon, without doubt.

Horizon is secretly run by Saeletra.

You know....that could be. Since, you know, no-one knows who or what Saeletra is/was...

That is one of the mysteries that is still unrevealed..

My sentiments exactly.

The more I think about it, the more I lean towards someone like Hestaby -- or a new, unknown force (an "aggregate evil" perhaps, as someone mentioned earlier).

I would actually be disappointed if it was the bugs behind Horizon.

- J.

... right after beating him and a bunch of other great dragons in a Rite of Succession and still leaving the Jewel of Memory and the Loremaster position (which was AFAIR the canon ending for Survival of the Fittest).

If Hestaby is backing Horizon, it should also be remembered that Corporate Download strongly suggested Arthur Vogel bought Leonard Aurelius shares in Ares Macrotechnology with funding from both Hestaby and the Pueblo.

Hello, Google?

I think the issue is that a lot of people unconsciously are correlating Google with Horizon. Google has been getting into all this stuff and has, for now, remained "good". Google is also still ran by its founders. Eventually the founders will leave the company and new people will lead Google and who knows where it will go with all that it has its tendrils poking into. Like with anything, a company can go from good to evil just by changing the people at the helm.

The comment about a puppet with an actor.... I figured someone would have brought up Reagan....

The difference between Reagan and Gary Cline is as follows.... Reagan wasn't thrust from acting into President. He had a political career previous to prove himself. Gary Cline, well I see nothing about him owning any business. To go from just being a star to the CEO of a triple A means he's likely a puppet, even if it is just his advisers that are puppetting him. Gary is a face for the company, I doubt he really makes any of its important decisions beyond being a rubber stamp.

Horizon is run by Them. The people who decide if hems are going to be higher or lower this year, draw up the borders, control the currency, decide all the matters that happen transparently around us. They work together, same people, different department.

It wouldn't be real surprising if that was the case, but there is a bit of flawed logic there. Think about it, for horizon to be the "people who decide if hems are going to be higher or lower this year, draw up the borders, control the currency, decide all the matters that happen transparently around us" they would have to be but a tiny, itty bitty part of it, meaning that all the Corps would have to be in the proverbial "Them"'s pocket. I find it hard to believe that such an intricate and complicated organization could exist in the Sixth World, there's too much chaos, even between corporations that there's no way they could function effectively as a community of movers and shakers. Companies that hire criminals to take out other companies, or steal research, or kill CEO's don't really seem like they'd do to well working together. and if they were part of a whole then why all the animosity? All they'd be doing to each other is hindering progress and innovation. However, that could all be a front for whats really happening, maybe the corps are all one big happy family... who knows?

Then again it would explain how they sort of materialized as a tripA out of thin air, and how they can function so well with a simstar at the helm, and why there's been no Corporate court backlash. Still that would all be in a a "perfect world:. in my opinion there's too much politics and too much hate for any such collective to be feasible. I mean it's not like this "Them" can tell Aztechnology where to set their prices if Aztechnology isn't involved right? Nice idea, in my mind a little bit out there, thanks for sharing though.

I was quoting the character that I linked. It's from Babylon 5, talking about the Shadows...not really a viable solution for Horizon, but an interesting plot hook for GMs to dangle in front of characters who were trying to figure out who actually is behind Horizon.

I know, i went to the link, i was just commenting on the flaws odf the possibility that something like "Them" was in charge of Horizon, i understand your referencve, and it makes a little bit of sense that something that intricate and involved would be in Horizon, i was just poking holes in the theory. I can see it's definite potential from a GM's perspective, but i started the thread in an attempt to draw people out of their shells and make them comment on their ideas of the origins and inner working of the corporation. Ergo i took took your comment as a theory as to who was running Horizon and poked holes in it, because thats what i'm good at. I appreciate your contribution.

McQ has way too much insider information... you should ignore what he says. Really. All of it. (Now, McQ, weren't you supposed to be writing and not reading these forums???)

You people are always so cryptic... i hope the answers to the big mystery that has been plagueing me for the past couple months are in the Corporate Guide. Here i was thinking this guy was a simple fan like me but now i am enthralled by the possibility that i may be able to milk him for his so called "insider information"

Thanks all for your theories, keep 'em coming. Oh and Ms. Tiger Eyes do you have anything you'd like to contribute?

McQ will probably correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure he's the current Missions director. so - he's got heaps of insider info if you can find a way to get him to divulge it

(of course, I'm sure Tiger Eyes does too... maybe you can pump them *both*)

Yes, Aaron and I are the co-coordinators for Missions. Incidentally, we are also both Freelancers and under NDAs. That said, we are allowed to point to material and draw connections between published sources. A lot of times, we just speculate.

To get me to divulge it, would require a fifth of Jack, and a lot of time. Tiger Eyes can be swayed by chocolate and jewelry. She is sometimes privvy to more info than I am...

More Jack = Less time? Jewelry can be faked too....

Doesn't sound too expensive, just time consuming.

Believe me, I have a high enough Jewelry Knowledge skill to spot the fakes.

I've heard a lot of women say that..... most took the negative quality. Incompetent (Jewelry Knowledge)

Now guys play nice, No need to try and pry info out of the Catalyst Employees. It's a fairly fruitless endeavor. We do welcome their theories however (HINT HINT) Otherwise let's focus on the task at hand and not de-rail the thread.

Do you have enough technical knowledge skill to join us in IRC some time? ^^