Hey all,

Our playing group started playing a SR4 campaign a while back and we've been struggling with some questions regarding Magicians and most notably when they are able to cast which spells, so I'm coming here for some insight from other players/GMs.

When a mage is active on the physical plane, it's a no-brainer. He can cast both M(ana) and P(hysical) spells at any physical target he can see.

When that mage is still active on the physical plane, but using Astral Perception, it seems he can cast only M spells at targets he can see and affect on the astral plane (but has a chance to be alerted to anything happening on the physical plane around his body).

Then, when the mage is actually leaving his body behind on the physical plane and using Astral projection, we think he can again only cast M spells at targets he can see and affect on the astral plane.

But, and here is our real puzzle, what happens when that astrally projecting mage is Manifesting itself from the astral plane into the physical plane. Which spells can he cast then (on targets in the physical plane) ? Our opinions vary from all spells to none at all.

Several of us have scanned the rulebook over and over, but we've been unable to come up with hard rules on this. May I ask for your opinions and the way this is handled in your playing groups ?

Thanks in advance for any feedback you can give !

- P -

When you are astrally perceiving you are dual natured and can target (and be targeted from) both the astral and physical. When you are astrally projecting you are ONLY on the astral. Manifesting doesn't change this, you are still on the astral and can only attack and be attacked from the astral.

Only something that has the power of materialization can appear on the physical from the astral. And then it's not projecting, it's astrally traveling.

manifestation is not the same as materialization, the power spirits use to become a physical being.

iirc, a manifesting magican cant even be picked up by cameras or other technological gear, as its a purely psychic effect.

think of it as a kind of magical "hologram".

heh, ninja-ed

Luke... Luke! You will go to the Dagobah system. There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me.

Oi Chums,

PG. 193 4th Ed A is the paragraph on Manifesting. PG. 184 BBB if you don't have Aniversery. It says that unlike the Materialization Powers of pirits manifesting does not create a physical form. So you can't do squat except make scary ghost sounds and float around.

Here's a chart of how spells interact with the Physical & Astral.

Enjoy.


Physical:
- Cast Mana spells on Physical Targets
- Cast Physical spells on Physical Targets

Astral Perception:
- Cast Mana spells on Physical Targets
- Cast Mana spells on Astral Targets
- Cast Physical spells on Physical Targets

Astral Projection:
- Cast Mana spells on Astral Targets

No it does not say that. Go read it again.

"Unlike the Materialization power of spirits" (bolding added for emphasis)

Materialization is the power spirits use to have a solid presence in meatspace.

Manifestation is what spirits and astral projecting beings use if they want to communicate with a living being in meatspace without actually being there.

These are two different concepts, with two different names that happen to share the same first two letters. Take care when reading about them or talking about them, because if you mix the two up, confusion reigns.

(However, everything else in your post about astrally projecting mages not being able to do squat in meatspace is an accurate description of any being using Manifestation.)

i do wonder if those two words walk into the trap of having the same first and last letter, and so triggers much the same function as what makes us able to read a word even when all but first and last letter are in scrambled positions...

Oi Chums,

I did put down the wrong word. Sorry will check my posts more thouroughly next time.

This came up in my game, and I did all the research exhaustively, and came to the same conclusion. Manifesting gains an astrally projecting mage NOTHING. People on the Physical Plane can see and hear you now. That's it, period. I like the "Magic Hologram" idea, it sums it up perfectly!
CONCEPT STOLEN FOR MY PLAYERS!

That's how it's always been, unless I've been running it wrong. SR2 might be a partial exception if manifestation allows for "grounding."

I wish there was a freakin sidebar to clarify this in SR4A.

Maybe next reprint... ?

- J.