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Nightfalke
So one of the characters in the game I'm running has a Reaction of 10, and is pretty much rolling 14-16 dice to react whenever anyone attacks him. I think I've hit him once with a bullet in the 3 sessions we've played, and that was with a wide long burst with an SMG.

I don't have a problem with his character whatsoever. He's the street sam, and he should be hard to hit. While I applaud his mastery of character generation, I really want to make things at least slightly difficult for him in a combat situation, preferably without turning the other characters into ground beef...

Thoughts? Ideas?

Thanks!
Synner667
Since no-one lives on a run...
...Just take 'em out, later.

Rocket to their apartment is completely appropriate...
...See one of the William Gibson Sprawl novels [took out the floor of a building] or Hardwired [rockets to the room].

Regardless what characters want to believe, or what they tell you, almost all of them have to sleep and eat and have downtime - all times a good opponent uses against them.
Nightfalke
QUOTE (Synner667 @ Nov 30 2009, 09:29 AM) *
Since no-one lives on a run...
...Just take 'em out, later.

Rocket to their apartment is completely appropriate...
...See one of the William Gibson Sprawl novels [took out the floor of a building] or Hardwired [rockets to the room].

Regardless what characters want to believe, or what they tell you, almost all of them have to sleep and eat and have downtime - all times a good opponent uses against them.


Ok...perhaps my intent with this post was a little misunderstood.

I don't want to kill the character (unless he does something monumentally stupid) I just want to make things a bit more challenging for him. As it stands, I need to roll godlike just to have a chance to hit him...and I think he knows it. I just want to be able to make him keep his head down, and give my corp sec/KE/Lone Star a chance to survive more than 2 IPs.
SincereAgape
Magic or try and place the street samurai in melee combat.
Sixgun_Sage
Area effect weapons are your friend, if he's that elite in his abilities he should be sent on runs with an elite opfor, grenade launchers, scatter guns and that sort of thing are NOT mr. uber-reaction-sammy's friends.
Blade
Wide burst fire
Spells
Defender unaware of the attack = no dodging
Synner667
QUOTE (Blade @ Nov 30 2009, 03:44 PM) *
Defender unaware of the attack = no dodging

Totally.

It's why snipers are so dangerous.

If the character is so fast, he must be one of the best of the best...
...And an obvious target, to reduce the capability of whatever team he's on.
DreadHam
and Ingram White Knight on wide burst and 10 dices , maybe put ex-ex as ammo, then just hurt him abit to show him he is not immortal smile.gif

Petrify spell could also be a fun thing to hit him with
Synner667
QUOTE (Sixgun_Sage @ Nov 30 2009, 03:44 PM) *
Area effect weapons are your friend, if he's that elite in his abilities he should be sent on runs with an elite opfor, grenade launchers, scatter guns and that sort of thing are NOT mr. uber-reaction-sammy's friends.

Totally.

If he's that good, he should have a reputation, which means he'll be recognised and people will have plans to disable him..
JoelHalpern
Wouldn't having 4 gangers all take their shots at him also cause him to think? By the last shot, he is at -7 to defense.

Yours,
Joel
Jericho Alar
direct combat spells would put a pretty bad dent in his day.

so would firing multiple times per round at him.
Wiggles Von Beerchuggin'
You could also have a sniper with a capsule round either full of Zen or Red Mescaline pop the sam.

Zen: -2 Reaction, +1 Willpower, -1 to all physical actions. Mild hallucinations. 10 x 1d6 minutes duration.
Red Mesc: +1 Charisma, -1 Reaction, +2 Perception, +1 Willpower, disorientation. (18-body) HOURS for duration.

Zen would be the more common way to do this - it drops his reaction and his physical dice pool, taking an effective 3 dice off his ability to react. Red Mescaline is the unusual way to do this - while it does drop reaction, it also increases perception. The key thing to remember is that it also causes "disorientation" which in this context I interpret as "HOLY SHIT, I'M TRIPPING." So the character might be more perceptive, but as for what he's seeing - that is up for debate. Or Willpower tests.

I had a game with a sniper who took Red Mescaline occasionally. He failed his Willpower test before the run (a slash and burn) started so he dosed up, and got into position. He killed five people before the rest of the team breached the perimeter. The sixth person he aimed at was a mirror image of himself, standing in a guard tower. He freaked for a second and pulled the trigger anyways, killing "himself" and suffered complete ego-death (combat paralysis for the next couple rounds).
BRodda
QUOTE (Nightfalke @ Nov 30 2009, 10:24 AM) *
So one of the characters in the game I'm running has a Reaction of 10, and is pretty much rolling 14-16 dice to react whenever anyone attacks him. I think I've hit him once with a bullet in the 3 sessions we've played, and that was with a wide long burst with an SMG.

I don't have a problem with his character whatsoever. He's the street sam, and he should be hard to hit. While I applaud his mastery of character generation, I really want to make things at least slightly difficult for him in a combat situation, preferably without turning the other characters into ground beef...

Thoughts? Ideas?

Thanks!


Area of effect is your friend on this one. Sleep gas with a DMSO component flooding an area is a common (in my games) part of security. Capture foam sprayers, grenades in narrow confines, flamethrowers if you want to get nasty.

With reaction jacked up that high I assume that they have to have some sort of MbW or something like that. You can always tag the cyber with EMP and if they are an adept you can have background count slow them down.

Sounds like you are just trying to slow him down enough to let things have the ability to hurt him, not just off him. Keep in mind that corp sec has to deal with guys like him every month, and there should be a procedure on how to take him out.
Octopiii
QUOTE (Nightfalke @ Nov 30 2009, 07:24 AM) *
So one of the characters in the game I'm running has a Reaction of 10, and is pretty much rolling 14-16 dice to react whenever anyone attacks him. I think I've hit him once with a bullet in the 3 sessions we've played, and that was with a wide long burst with an SMG.

I don't have a problem with his character whatsoever. He's the street sam, and he should be hard to hit. While I applaud his mastery of character generation, I really want to make things at least slightly difficult for him in a combat situation, preferably without turning the other characters into ground beef...

Thoughts? Ideas?

Thanks!


As has been said before, wide bursts are your friend; in fact, it should be SOP for any corp sec. With the advantage of time (after all, they just need to pin the opposition down until the HTR arrives), your day-to-day security's first job is to keep the opposition pinned down. Take cover, fire wide bursts, bust out with grenades, send out the trained hellhounds, etc.

Here are some tactics to reduce his defense pool: Area attack weapons provide for a flat -2 dp penalty for the defender. For every attack he's defended against that pass past the 1st, he get's a -1 dp penalty. For fun, try doing wide bursts with gel rounds; unless your guy has a super high body, 1 net hit from an assault rifle or SMG should knock him down. Then send in the hell hounds/dogs/whatever: -2 dp penalty for prone, +3 to attacker for opponent prone, +2 to attacker for charging.

Alternatively, a mage will FUBAR your sammy up, but you don't want to be pulling full mages against your team regularly; it's just not realistic.

Also, is he regularly dodging? 14-16 is pretty high for ranged attacks.
kzt
QUOTE (BRodda @ Nov 30 2009, 09:22 AM) *
Area of effect is your friend on this one. Sleep gas with a DMSO component flooding an area is a common (in my games) part of security.

Neurostun has a contact vector by RAW.
Nightfalke
QUOTE (Octopiii @ Nov 30 2009, 10:39 AM) *
Also, is he regularly dodging? 14-16 is pretty high for ranged attacks.


10 reaction + the Reakt protien thing from RC. So, "only" 12 dice when he's not actively dodging. My bad. Just feels like more when he's telling me "7 hits to dodge" eek.gif
Tymire
*shrug* he still needs to be aware of the attack.....
Orcus Blackweather
I saw a number of good replies, but they were mostly mechanical replies. What I suggest is that you rethink the issue. The problem is not how many dice he gets for this skill or that skill, but in the gaming outlook. Shadowrun is basically Rock-Paper-Scissors. If a player is balanced heavily in a particular direction, he will tend to be weak in another, a well balanced character is not particularly strong in any area, but suffers no glaring weaknesses either. No one is all powerful (not without thousands of Karma). Regardless of how good the character gets, there is always someone or something that is tougher. It may be periodically necessary to have your group meet an ares firewatch team, or a coven of mages, or a group of drakes (possible containing magic use), or any of a dozen other high threat items. It is important to remember why the group is playing, and stay non-adversarial. I liked your statement that you applaud his character gen-fu. Next you need to challenge the roleplaying skill. Sometimes the dice are a crutch. Gently remind the characters why they stay in the shadows (the dragon sitting on them is a nice gentle reminder), and then go entirely diceless for part of the session.

Hope that helps.
Vertaxis
Try a boobie trap of some kind. Reaction should mean diddly if this guy falls in a pit trap.
LurkerOutThere
My first question is you are remembering the cumulative penalty for dodging multiple attacks in a round right? I both play this build and run for some that do and numbers and wide burst are what keeps my ass behind cover with the rest of the mundanes.

As others have said, snipers, spell casters, and just things that don't allow a reaction roll to avoid are good picks.
StealthSigma
People have stated snipers... here's my question...

How many shots does the sniper get before sammy will be considered "aware" of the sniper? Just the single IP for the ambush, or will it continue until until the sammy locates where the sniper is shooting from?

Let's face it, any sammy is going to have a decent armor + body score. So even using the Barrett it's questionable whether the sniper can put him down. Injure, sure, but put him down, no. The sammy will probably walk away with a -3 damage penalty though....
pbangarth
I like Orcus Blackweather's response. To amplify that, a series of sessions should allow for different characters to shine. In the process of providing a situation that highlights another character, this character may find that he needs to take a back seat, as his skills, including Neo-level Bullet Dodge, are secondary.
Sengir
Just just some reasonable GM adjustment in cases where the huge number of dice would lead to unrealistic results. For example in a confined corridor that muzzle-loaded shotgun from Arsenal or a SMG in spray 'n pray mode WILL hit something, and no ammount of reaction dice will convince me otherwise.

Be careful not to overdo this kind of intervention, however. Just remind him of his mortality sometimes...
Mr. Unpronounceable
Meh - you can always throw a grenade at the guy next to him. No dodge test there.
BishopMcQ
If you use Security Animals, Barghests with a Paralyzing Howl or any critter/spirit with Paralyzing Touch can reduce Reaction. It won't kill him, but could slow him down quite a bit.
djinni
QUOTE (Sengir @ Nov 30 2009, 03:28 PM) *
Just just some reasonable GM adjustment in cases where the huge number of dice would lead to unrealistic results. For example in a confined corridor that muzzle-loaded shotgun from Arsenal or a SMG in spray 'n pray mode WILL hit something, and no ammount of reaction dice will convince me otherwise.

due to the attack test not generating enough hits to score a hit, the shooter didn't cover any of the floor, the reaction test deems the character dropped prone.
sometimes before chanting ultimatums people need to think a little
Sengir
Just look at the pic of the Street Sweeper in Arsenal and tell me again that it does not cover the gound wink.gif
Lorgoth
Are you sure he's getting seven hits per dodge with just 12 dice everytime? If so, you might want to check his dice. It's no unusual to see that many on occasion, but if it is a regular basis, he's not just bending the propability curve, he's using it for a yard stick.

Beyond that, my suggestion is the same as others I've seen here. put him up (and the team) against multiple enimies. With three or four guys shooting with burst fire, two attacks each, he should be into the negatives on his rolls and looking for cover pretty quick.
Karoline
So many ways to get around this, most of which have already been mentioned. Reaction is useless in melee and against magic.

One guy with a wide burst can likely put a few holes in him.

Make good use of the '-1 to dodge per previous dodge attempt since last action' In other words if he is fighting 5 basic guard types, and each one fires 2 shots from a pistol in SA mode, then he has to make 10 dodge rolls. If his reaction is 10, then the rolls go 10, 9, 8...3, 2, 1. Some of those should hit. This makes it really easy to do a bit of damage without rolling out any kind of big guns, just a couple mall cops could pull this off.
McCummhail
QUOTE (Karoline @ Nov 30 2009, 04:20 PM) *
So many ways to get around this, most of which have already been mentioned. Reaction is useless in melee and against magic.

Why is reaction useless in melee?
QUOTE (SR4A: Defending Against Melee Attacks, p.156)
...or they can simply dodge out of the way using Dodge + Reaction.

I think this kind of character poses the same challenge as a walking tank, a stealth-maxed technomancer, or any other over specialized character. They are really good at what they do, but it is a very narrow field.

A walking tank that posed a problem for me was so over-specialized in defense that his offense was lacking. The opposition eventually labeled him as a waste of time to shoot at and geeked the mage instead (which they should have done first anyways, but the tank looked so big and scary!). Then the player had to adjust his game accordingly. He was still a nigh unkillable beast, but he did not break the game.
Karoline
Oops, right you are McC. I was only thinking of block and parry.
CanadianWolverine
Er, not sure if anyone has covered this, but don't characters not get to even roll reaction in general defense if they are less on their surprise test than the person attacking? Sorry if I am mistaken, but I would take this as meaning Mr(s) Stealth/Sniper (Ambush) could do away with Mr(s) Reaction? And the ammo used doesn't have to be lethal, so that takes care of not wanting kill Mr(s) Reaction.

Its why IMHO I think if a shadowrunner has to get into combat, they should do everything possible to make it a ambush, surprise test to start the fight off and either drop em or stack the negatives.

Incidentally, I am thinking this makes Perception (Intuition) in all the six senses possible and knowledge skills related to your enviroment, strategy, tactics, security, and security procedures pretty important to make sure you don't get ambushed.
pbangarth
QUOTE (CanadianWolverine @ Nov 30 2009, 05:46 PM) *
Incidentally, I am thinking this makes Perception (Intuition) in all the six senses possible and knowledge skills related to your enviroment, strategy, tactics, security, and security procedures pretty important to make sure you don't get ambushed.

Someone on DS a while ago pointed out that long-time players tend to have characters with better Perception Skill than new players.
Karoline
QUOTE (CanadianWolverine @ Nov 30 2009, 07:46 PM) *
Incidentally, I am thinking this makes Perception (Intuition) in all the six senses possible and knowledge skills related to your enviroment, strategy, tactics, security, and security procedures pretty important to make sure you don't get ambushed.


"Do you taste that? I think we're about to be ambushed."
"I told you to take a freaking shower before we did this!"
Draco18s
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Dec 1 2009, 12:30 AM) *
Someone on DS a while ago pointed out that long-time players tend to have characters with better Perception Skill than new players.


Its true too. New players are typically coming from games like D&D where the fighter wasn't expected to have a high Spot (or listen, search, or...).
Karoline
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Dec 1 2009, 06:41 AM) *
Its true too. New players are typically coming from games like D&D where the fighter wasn't expected to have a high Spot (or listen, search, or...).


Anything except HP AC FS TH Dmg wink.gif

I've noticed this in myself as well. My early characters weren't much concerned with perception, and would often not even take a single rank in it. More recently I generally try and get it soft maxed, and always make sure to have at least a rank or two in it (Unless I'm playing a highly oblivious character for some reason)
StealthSigma
QUOTE (CanadianWolverine @ Nov 30 2009, 08:46 PM) *
Incidentally, I am thinking this makes Perception (Intuition) in all the six senses possible and knowledge skills related to your enviroment, strategy, tactics, security, and security procedures pretty important to make sure you don't get ambushed.


QUOTE (Karoline @ Dec 1 2009, 07:09 AM) *
"Do you taste that? I think we're about to be ambushed."
"I told you to take a freaking shower before we did this!"


You missed the perfect quote response. =(

"Listen, do you smell something?"

--

QUOTE (pbangarth @ Dec 1 2009, 01:30 AM) *
Someone on DS a while ago pointed out that long-time players tend to have characters with better Perception Skill than new players.


But... my first character has a 4 perception and 5 intuition. =(
Draco18s
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Dec 1 2009, 07:19 AM) *
"Listen, do you smell something?"


I actually did smell something in a game once. Of course, I was playing a character who had a better nose than ears or eyes...

(Because the game system actually had 5 perception scores: sight, smell, sound, touch, and chemical; IIRC my "chemical" was the highest--allowed you to detect and identify chemical substances through various senses, again, IIRC).
Karoline
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Dec 1 2009, 07:19 AM) *
"Listen, do you smell something?"


Or as I often hear people say "Look/see, do you hear that?"
AKWeaponsSpecialist
How about having him chase a Parkour practitioner (or other courier/fast little bugger) with Spell Knack (Physical Barrier)....with orders to take him alive. He should survive a fall from a couple stories up, and if the target throws up the PB at the edge of a roof as the sammy jumps.....since he doesn't move any faster from those extra IP's (I'm assuming the IP's, here, but with that high a REA, it seems likely), it could certainly provide a challenge without being particularly lethal. As a side note, could Physical Barrier theoretically be used as a surface to run on?
McCummhail
QUOTE (AKWeaponsSpecialist @ Dec 1 2009, 04:39 PM) *
As a side note, could Physical Barrier theoretically be used as a surface to run on?
I would say why not? It's magic.
Even better, sliding through the air on ice walls being continually cast!
Karoline
QUOTE (AKWeaponsSpecialist @ Dec 1 2009, 04:39 PM) *
As a side note, could Physical Barrier theoretically be used as a surface to run on?


What makes you think the laws of magic allow for creation of barriers in a not vertical position? Angles require complex math, and I'm fairly sure that going all the way to 90 degrees gets you a divide by zero error and would break the universe if you ever tried it.

Who needs levitate when you have instafloor!
Stahlseele
A Barrier is a magical Contruct of X strength in a form to your liking.
From wall to Spherical, everything can be done.
Instant-Ramps for instant Crash-Tests come to mind.
djinni
QUOTE (Sengir @ Nov 30 2009, 05:14 PM) *
Just look at the pic of the Street Sweeper in Arsenal and tell me again that it does not cover the gound wink.gif

a basic understanding of ballistics coupled with the description I already gave would explain how.
but that's fine if you don't play with dice in your game, a detailed description of an action is usually more cinematic than someone just rolling dice, we tend to do both, using the dice to determine how or what happens.
Karoline
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Dec 1 2009, 04:49 PM) *
A Barrier is a magical Contruct of X strength in a form to your liking.
From wall to Spherical, everything can be done.
Instant-Ramps for instant Crash-Tests come to mind.


I wonder if you could make more complex forms. Make shape it like a person and throw some clothing on it as a decoy. Other spells out there that work better maybe, but good for if you don't have those spells.
Traul
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Dec 1 2009, 10:49 PM) *
A Barrier is a magical Contruct of X strength in a form to your liking.
From wall to Spherical, everything can be done.
Instant-Ramps for instant Crash-Tests come to mind.

Not with the base spell: Wall and spherical are the only possibilities accepted, nothing fancier. The only question is whether a wall has to be vertical or not. I would tend to say yes: the only reason we have always built vertical walls is to prevent them from collapsing on themselves, and the spell construct has no reason to be affected by gravity.
Karoline
QUOTE (Traul @ Dec 1 2009, 05:22 PM) *
The only question is whether a wall has to be vertical or not. I would tend to say yes: the only reason we have always built vertical walls is to prevent them from collapsing on themselves, and the spell construct has no reason to be affected by gravity.


I think you left out an 't or a negative somewhere.

You asked: Does a wall have to be vertical? Yes. Because the wall is not affected by gravity.

That is basically a contradiction.

It is an interesting question though: Are barrier spells affected by gravity?
tagz
Well to be technical, when a wall becomes horizontal it's no longer a wall. It's more of a floor or ceiling now. spin.gif
AKWeaponsSpecialist
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the "yes" was to using it as a surface, as it isn't affected by gravity....and he was talking about *natural* walls being built the way they are to prevent them from collapsing on themselves.
LurkerOutThere
I'm at work right now. Does the text of the spell say that it can levitate or can float freely? Otherwise i'd have to determine both from a GM perspective and a legal on that unless specifically stated otherwise the barriers will still obey physics and therefore cannot just float free.

This also prevents people from brining down aircraft just by casting barrier.
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