Yup, this particular character makes a Body + Armor test to resist damage (he has a body of 11), after his 15+ points of ballistic armor (Mystic Armor 5 + Armor Vest / Armor whatever) reduce any small/medium arms fire to Stun.

Then he gets to make - every turn - a Body + Magic (total of 16 dice) test to heal the damage. So in order to really challenge him, I have to either do damage that he can't resist (magic really... not counting the aforementioned hits to brain or spinal cord) or just overwhelm his healing, which isn't really realistic in a lot of situations.

Add to that - one of the characters is a semi-pacifist healing mage. Yikes.

And no, I am not looking to kill him. I just want to be able to challenge the party in combat. Out of combat, that's easy. But if every fight devolves to "send in the bear and wait 15 seconds" then its not going to be a lot of fun. Well, maybe the first couple of times it will be.

Thanks for all the ideas here folks. I am very, very glad that I found this board. Great ideas all round!

Hey, Good Luck
Let us know how it turns out won't you?

Keep the Faith

whats the target number for regen?

Well, don't fall into the trap of thinking the only measure of challenging the PC's is by damaging them. There's lots of ways to fail in SR and never take a box of damage. The bear looks pretty sick, but on the bright side he looks like the only combat monster you have to deal with (although I imagine at some point the rigger will be laying down some impressive firepower as well).

I think your group is going to roll over most mundane, basic security types, but guess what? Every group of runners pretty much rolls over the mundane, basic security types. In fact, given the number of dice the bear is throwing on damage tests, I don't think Regen is going to come up all that much. He'll take a few boxes of damage every now and again that will quickly disappear, but even if it didn't the mage would heal him on his next action anyway.

The things that make your group sweat are going to be the things that make every group sweat-- powerful spirits, toxics, bugs, high-level corporate black ops. Threats like that and magic like that is rare in the world of SR, but it's less rare for the shadowrunners. If they're at the top of their game, they'll be going up against the people that are at the top of their game.

As far as basic security types go, probably the best weapons for the money for them are shock and taser weapons. Because of the way electricity damage works, these tend to (ironically) be a little scarier than guns to most PC's, and since they're nonlethal, pretty much any sec company can use them.

Target number? Its a Body + Magic test. Each hit equals one box of Physical or Stun damage healed.

Unless you were asking about the base rule? Its SR4, so any 5 or 6 is a hit. Which means that on average, he's going to heal 5 boxes of damage, per combat round.

ah ok. yea, sounds like you'd really flip if you came across them in Sr3. and I must agree with mercer, the red shirts never challenge anyone. Also, challenging players is not synonomous with putting them in the hospital. I know the best games for me have always a complex run that doesnt go to shit.

Something more interesting to consider instead of how to sock it to em would be how to put em in a situation where they have to show off their stuff. Easy example for a shapeshifer is have the team on top a X storybuilding and someone notices the punk they are looking for is leaving the building they are in at a fast pace; does the shapeshifter jump off and painfully survive the jump or be a sissy and they loose the guy?

Yeah, in previous editions Regen damage simply disappeared at the end of the round unless you did Deadly damage and they rolled a 1 (sometimes a 1 or 2) on a single d6. I houseruled Regen in my SR3 game (vamps paid a point of essence to heal one wound level, back when there were wound levels; shapeshifters healed Physical at the Stun rate). If I had it to do over, I would probably include some sort of BOD test mechanic, like SR4 uses.

When it comes to basic security types, I think the way to challenge runners is to have the security work on a theory of containment. They're not there to directly intervene against heavily armed intruders. They're there to observe and contain threats until the HTR teams arrive. They wouldn't generally actively pursue dangerous criminals throughout a compound, but rather stay at more easily defended checkpoints and try to delay the intruders or channel them into other areas of the facility.

They'll still be ice cream for most runner groups, particularly if the group's hacker or rigger takes over the building security, or the group's mage and spirits run roughshod over them.

I would say that when it comes to HTR teams, most probably don't carry silver ammo, but most HTR teams probably have a paranormal threat assessment team protocol and silver ammo would probably be in that toolkit. Shapeshifters are rare, but its not like no one has ever heard of them before.

How do they know that they are dealing with heavily armed intruders and not the usual riff-raff - how good is their Perception checks? How good are they at security/tactics in order to make use of those easily defended checkpoints - are they defaulting to Int/Logic (even at Threshold 1 for general knowledge, defaulting from a low Intuition/Logic makes it nearly impossible to reach that Threshold)?

Also for the HTRs, how good is their intel? Do they know that they are dealing with the "unusual"? Remember unless they are really well-trained/veteran, they can get complacent and leave the "extras" back in HQ. Also the issues that the corp sec has to deal with are applicable here, the HTR probably have better skills and attributes so those issues may not be as great a concern.

No Targert number per se, standard rules apply... Hits are scored on a 5 or 6 on a d6... roll your dice pool and count the successes, that is what you healed that turn...

Keep the Faith

Because the first guy treated them like the usual riff-raff and he's now lying face-down bleeding from several large new holes. Now if the 'runners don't kill him but incapacitate him some other way, then it might take security longer to work it out. Beat him up and knock him unconscious and it may still look like a committed gang of street punks when his back-up arrives to find out why he's not answering his comm anymore.

And why are security guards defaulting on security tactics, surely they have a Professional Knowledge Skill: Security Tactics (X Facility) 1 (+2) where X is the facility they work at. So they're rolling 5-6 DP agaisnt a basic threshold. Oh and there's 5 of them so lets run it as a teamwork test, because chances are one of them will remember protocol and tell the others about it, so thats a DP of 9-10.

I'm not too sure and since I am AFB I can't check but if you have your books with you, could you see if the ganger grunts in SR4A have any firearms?

And given 2 or more to 1 odds, would the sec guard have confronted the gangers anyway? If the street punks have guns, the usual riff-raff are likely to have caused those large new holes anyway.

Why are they defaulting? I don't know but do the corp sec grunts in the book have such a skill? The GM could give them such, but do those standard grunts in the book have such a skill? Yes, we've been through this before and you can say all you want about the grunts not having ammo. But the fact is the standard corpsec does not have any such related security skill. About that one guy reminding the others, does he have the Leadership skill? Can he convince the others that protocol should be followed?

Those guards could have been trained, but did they put in effort to actually learn and acquired the skill? Where they motivated to do so? Or did they simply view it as just some training/waste of time they had to clock time on? Maybe they could simply pass a written test that they could memorise the answers to, they didn't need real understanding or knowledge of the subject.

I think for low level security guards, probably not. There will be sites with incompetent security, but those don't seem like the sites people are going to pay runners to hit, because those aren't the sites that house anything valuable. So unless the runners are hitting the local mall (and some days they will be), the sec guards will probably have some base level of competency. This means, yeah, they'll know basically what to do when they spot a break-in. They'll know where the security checkpoints are, and they'll know what they're supposed to do.

For the basic guys on-site, the protocols aren't going to be terribly complicated and they're not going to ask the guards to unduly risk their lives, because there's no point in making a protocol people can't or won't follow.

The other thing is if the guards detect intruders, the general assumption will probably be they're armed and dangerous. If they make their Perception tests they'll spot the weapons, which given what a lot of SR groups carry will probably be enough for them to hit the "Oh Shit" button. If they fail their Perception tests, they have no idea what sort of weapons the intruders have. The unknown is pretty scary, particularly when it's in a darkened corporate facility and may well have an auto shotgun. It's not like the 6th World has less things to be scared of than our own, and our own has plenty of things to be scared of.

Aren't there really 2 types of guards? Rent-a-cops and CorpSec? What is a rent-a-cop going to be guarding that you really want (unless the corp is hiding something in an unlikely place, or a similar reason)? And CorpSec are professionals. It wouldn't make sense for them not to have several ranks in security procedures and tactics. It's their job, they have been doing it for years, and it's not cost effective to have incompetents guarding things. They don't have to be "experts" in the field, but a "Joe Smo on the street" level of knowledge? Isn't that like a programmer who doesn't know about code? (And why doesn't the boss have leadership?)

Given the grunts in the SR4A, I would go with the Rating 3 grunts (going by memory here) to be Corporate Security of the level of Rent-A-Cop and the Rating 5 grunts to be the professionals. While Mr Rent-A-Cop might not be smart enough to know tactics, Mr Professional has the intelligence(high base attribute) to know some general tactics.

While your basic corp sec does it for a living and probably has been doing it for a few years, it does not necessarily translate to have several ranks in security procedures and tactics. Is he good enough to keep away those riff-raff who are equally if not more incompetent that try to break into the facility? He probably is and that is your cost effectiveness right there. He probably more invested in keeping the executives that come through his gate happy so he doesn't get a complain. He may vaguely remember that he should do certain things when an intruder is spotted, but he may not recall exactly what, especially in the heat of the moment.

Well, we're not talking about doing complicated things. We're talking about fairly simple things like alerting other guards (and their supervisor) when they see evidence of a break-in, or more likely, responding as directed when some other security measure is tripped. These things probably don't require a high level of tactical skill, and probably don't involve a roll at all. (I mean, these are things so basic I can't imagine a scenario where a GM would forbid a player from doing it because they lacked an appropriate knowledge or professional skill, or would require a roll at all.)

I think that most sec guards in the world of SR probably know they're pretty low on the scale. I mean, in the fluff even gang members can be seriously armed. And it seems like from a security design standpoint, you have to assume anyone breaking into a secure facility is probably going to be better trained, equipped and motivated than the rank-and-file sec guards you have manning the guard stations. (This will not always be the case, but planning only for the eventuality of being burgled by people more incompetent than your minimum-wage-plus guards seems like poor sec design. Also, the OP is looking for ways to challenge his players. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the best way to challenge his players is not to make the security guards wildly incompetent.)

Street punks - didn't say gangers. I meant 'the type of person the security guard would usually be able to deterr/detain without back-up'. Pretty much even if it is just street punks causing those holes - shots have been fired, a guy is dead/dying you call in the HTR. Those guys arrive on scene and take out the gangers, or walk into a wall of lead because its actually shadowrunners, at which point they (the more professionals) call in more backup with better intel based off their professional assessment. This last group might actually have something that can help. (By which time the 'runners will hopefully be gone).

Basically its the Security Guard -> Police -> SWAT progression, just on a corporate level.

Didn't know they'd made smaller versions specifically for joints. Nice.

They are listed as having Knowledge:
[Corporate] History 3, [Installalation] Layout 3, Corporate Law 2, Matrix Games 3, Psychology 2, Security Systems 3, Tactics 4.

The Rent-a-Cop on the same page has Knowledge:
Police Procedure 2, Security Procedures 2, Security Systems 2, Simporn Trivia 4.


One of my personal pet-peeves is how the power-levels of common folks, like CorpSec and Lonestat, go up and down depending on what book your looking at (and that's within an edition, heaven-forbid let alone between editions). The Police Officer mook in SR4 versus the Street Cop from the Lone Star book, for example. Or our friends listed above.

Just throwing this info out there, in case it's useful to the conversation.

And I said the usual riff-raff and like you I had meant 'the type of person the security guard would usually be able to deterr/detain without back-up' which I had took it to be gangers. Basically, the way I see it, there are 2 levels of corporate grunt opposition - corp sec and Red Sam level security. Police only counts as corp in that police function had been outsourced to corporate entities. If a corp wanted to deal with it in-house, I'd skip the police level and go straight to Red Sam level if regular corp sec can't handle it. Of course, this does not include those corps that are the police like LS or Ares(KE).

Mercer - I'd grant you that calling for help would be instinctual, but responding as directed may require the director to have the appropriate skillset like Leadership and some security tactics and this is what I am talking about. Calling for help and ducking for cover is instinctive enough, but what about containment or "observe and monitor"? Would the sec guard know how to set up containment? Does he know how to observe or is all he is telling the HTR "I think they are still in there, I've not seen them come out"?

The OP is looking to challenge his players. Good, but I don't think corp sec is supposed to be any challenge. I see his party make up and I see his players wanting corp sec to a non-issue. I'd go out on a limb and say that making corp sec competent isn't the best way for his players to have fun or to pose a challenge to his players. Measured against the PCs, corp sec is supposed to be incompetent.

I agree that in SR3, corporate security had a different meaning. But while power level of a certain sub-set varied within an edition, it didn't do so much.

Between editions however, I tend to think that the social upheavals and the societal changes that form the backdrop of the changeover meant that old paradigms and power levels of common folk had changed.

On a side note, I had liked that by the end of SR3, there were SR3 stats for most of the characters a GM would need to populate his world, instead of the nebulous "Inferior/Equal/Superior/Superhuman" classifications.

In the types of places runners break into (that is, with a level of security appropriate to the value of what is being guarded), yes. Containment doesn't take any special skillset, all the protocols should be set up well in advance. Containment basically means go where you are supposed to go, lock the door, defend yourself or fall back as necessary and wait for HTR. Now, this assumes the guards are already a cut above Rent-a-Cop in terms of general competence. If the runners are breaking into a low-priority warehouse guarded by a doorknob-rattler, then this goes out the window, but that to me is the exception, not the rule.



This is where you and I part ways. Competent Corp Sec doesn't mean that the security guards are as good as the PC's at almost anything. What it means is the corporate security makes sound tactical decisions within their limited purview. That's pretty much what corp sec is designed to do.

If the PC's prevail because they outsmarted the opposition, the players will generally have a feeling of accomplishment and take enjoyment in that. If the PC's win because the opposition basically doesn't do anything to stop them, that gets old fast.

This.

The campaign I am plotting now (based on some of the suggestions in this very thread) will not be heavily focused on combat. The party composition being what it is (rather than the two sammies, one adept and one rigger that were originally posed by the players), a combat focused game would quickly bore these characters. That said, the adept is a combat specialist. His powers are all combat focused. He has the Uncouth quality. A purely social game would fail to address this character's needs just as badly as a combat game will fail the needs of the rest of the party. So, in an effort to give the adept some spotlight time (which is very important to me - i.e. that all characters be given opportunities to shine) I needed to come up with ways to challenge him in combat. That does not mean kill him, nor does it mean overwhelming him every time. He should maul the opponents in the vast majority of situations. Corp sec is not going to have the capacity to stop him nine times out of ten. But when I want to make things interesting for him, the suggestions that I have received here are going to help a lot.

Thanks again for the great suggestions all, as well as some interesting discussion. I can see that I am going to like spending time here.

I don't know about you, but if I'm guarding a place and my buddy dies from being shot up, I wouldn't really care if the shooters were 'runners' (Because runners have special tattoos to distinguish themselves from gangers), gangers, children, or trained monkeys, I'd be calling in reinforcements (And an ambulance).

And leadership or not, if someone says "Hey, protocol is to all gather up here and defend ourselves till support comes in." I'm not really going to argue with him unless 'here' is in the middle of the room with no cover or something. I would expect that the corp procedure has my best chance of survival in mind (Which it may not) and generally follow the procedure, even if it is only 'joe that no one really likes' that remembers it. (And the idea that even a rent-a-cop wouldn't know basic procedure of what to do when under attack is fairly retarded. A freaking note on their comm IN CASE OF EMERGENCY would be plenty even if the cop is near brain dead.)

I don't know, personally I think it could be alot of fun to RP an uncouth character in social situations... I'd need to learn how to belch and fart on command though

Oh, don't get me wrong, I am looking forward to seeing this character in social situations, and I know he's going to have a lot of fun with them. He took the Uncouth trait and then asked me about body odour. But while those will be great RP challenges for him, I still want him to be able to shine a bit at what he does... tear things into small pieces and walk away without a scratch on him.

Well, just let him at anything that doesn't have a mage, sniper, or silver weapons and he'll shine plenty

I think it generally would, not because the corp cares one way or the other but because medical bills and death benefits are expensive. It's cheaper if the guards live. Further, asking basic guards to risk their lives is pretty pointless, because most of them won't. Having a protocol people can't or won't follow defeats the purpose of the protocol.

The other thing is that if the guards have a protocol to follow, even if the protocol if basically sound, it can still make it easier for clever runners to circumvent them. Because once you know what the enemy is going to do (either because you have Security Protocols at a high rank, or you hack the sec company's database to figure out their SOP), you can use that to your advantage.

In either case they are acting like Shadowrunning professionals and I would let them get away with it. If they know that security acts one way for an intruder and another for a fire I'll let them sneak through the holes they find in the procedure while running a fake fire alarm (or if a fire alarm takes precedence over an intruder alert).

Damn, it would actully make me proud

Yeah, they generally will, but depending on what you're guarding, they may want to put you in a chokepoint that the runners will have to go through, which isn't very good for your health, but might buy enough time for reinforcements to show up before the runners get away. Of course if that is the case, then they'll likely just hire better guards in the first place.