Right, the ones from augmentation...
I don't remember where I read it, I think it was on Runner's Companion saying how certain wares could be explained to authorities if your SIN presented a certain medical history, like wired reflexes if you have a neural condition like Parkson, or muscle replacement/toner/augmentation if you have muscle degeneration, etc...
Apparently Bone density augmentation can be taken by anyone... Which is a little odd.
I also don't understand why Suprathyroid gland is forbiden, except maybe for being a risky surgery and all... Any one here has an idea why?

Suprathyroid is almost certainly banned on grounds of aggression and the detrimental effect on the recipients health. But even then you can probably justify it for certain Athletes. I"ve always looked at the illegality or otherwise of gear as a contextual thing. If your an Urban Brawl athlete its entirely possible you've got some 'illegal' ware: whereas, what you've done is pay a fortune to have somebody grant you an exceptional permit.

So I tend to read:
Restricted as: Illegal for the man on the street to have without a permit.
Illegal as: Illegal for the man on the street to have, permits are possible but very rare.

By very rare, I mean for all practical purposes a Shadowrunner is not going to get one. Take Praetor's for example, they are availability 11F but obviously somebody is allowed to manufacture, carry and use them: just, in the normal course of events, not whoever the Shadowrunner is pretending to be.

Quite agree here. Somebody has a right to use that weapon/mod/chem, or it wouldn't exist. Remember that corps get to set the laws on their property, so you can bet that the corpsec forces will have every edge in the book, legally. There's also some legal wiggleroom for legitimate citizens (read: NPCs) whose business requires them to have certain gear - my party was in for a nasty surprise when they tried to take on a retired Rigger who owned a shipping company, because all of his rides were armed to the teeth to protect them from raiders. With his money and connections, he just got licenses for milspec gear - he had good reason to have it.

Exactly, Illegal for the average citizen. Its illegal for me to own high explosives today. But licensed demolitions experts can own and buy it.

Carrying a concealed weapon is illegal unless you have a license. Although not the weapon its self just the use of it in that way.

And I totally agree that on corp land its really up to that corp what will be allowed. Guarantee if a corp has a contract to make milspec gear for sale to governments. You will find that Corps internal security sporting a fair amount of that gear.

I actually think this would be a good reward for a run. What if Mr. Johnson was willing to pay in normally illegal gear rather than But then I like to be very restrictive with illegal or hard to find gear. Sure its out there, But will cost you an arm and a leg. Mr. Johnson will be happy to tell you who's arm or leg he wants in trade.

But the 'it's illegal to the normal man' answer doesn't answer for the difference between Bone Lacing being Illegal and Bone Density being completely Unrestricted. They do almost exactly the same thing (with the exception of the additional armor rating that comes with the Bone Lacing) including making your punches lethal, but have very different legality ratings.

If in doubt and humanity is involved - somebody f'd up, is a good standby explanation.

You are right... They are, for the most part, exactly the same. But bone lacing has been around longer. People have seen its effects. People have committed, intentional or unintentional, crimes with it. Bioware has not been around as long. People have not seen its effects or since it is harder to spot have not connected it to any crimes. Just because they do the same thing does not make them the same in the eyes of the law. Also, because it is an emerging technology I would see it in the best interest of the corporations involved to "pay off" the politicians to keep it legal so they can sell more product.

I would also expect Bone Density Augmentation to be the preferred method of correcting developed osteoporosis. Lacing isn't as good for that, since the alien material may leech out of the lacing into the body, to some kind of negative consequence (since we don't know how lacing is actually performed, it may "leech" out in large chunks). This risk is only exacerbated when your bone density is falling.

Bone lacing may be illegal because it poses undue risk to the person receiving it.

That could be a factor. But I doubt it. The technology has been around for over 3 decades if not longer. that would be sufficient to work the bugs out or study long term effects. However, it could have been declared illegal very early on for those reasons. Anyone have the SR1/SR2 book it is in to check its legality.

Besides, I could see bone density augmentation to have similar problems with side effects. Arthritis in the joints. Too much deposits on the inside of the skull compressing the brain. Changing the bone marrow in unforeseen ways. Complex life forms can be very finicky when it comes to changes in its DNA. Minor changes could effect things on a major scale. I would see bioware and geneware being more illegal than their tech counterparts for the simple reason that you should be able to remove the cyber/nano tech more easily if it becomes problematic.

Basically, coating your bones with anything would kill you, as the bone marrow can not live without oxygen and your body cannot live without the blood being produced in there either.
which is why it's a lacing, not a coating, which means nanomachines actually weave the fibres into the bone structure itself.

Well, in SR3 you could get Plastic and Aluminum Bone Lacing with a permit, but not the Titanium (which is more understandable). So, I don't know why the first two became illegal during the edition change.

Well, in the early 2000's there was a scare about every day used plastics in kids toys and water bottles where leaching dangerous chemicals into kids mouths or the water in the bottles. And as early as the 1980's aluminum was linked to Alzheimer disease. So who knows what was going on...

The point is that there's something quite fundamentally more risky about putting bits of inorganic material into your bones that isn't present when adding more bone. Even if the lacing doesn't cause any leeching, the other possibility is that the lacing may causing internal laceration when damaged or unset from the surrounding bone. Adding something harder than bone can cause a lot of problems when it can form a sharper edge than bone, and the bone is wasting or breaks (which the harder material will shortly do when the bone around it wastes away to the point that the lacing is supporting the majority of the stress).

But that's all smokescreen, really. A veneer of plausibility that gets used to provide pretext for passing a bill motivated entirely by the bottom line of a politician. Rich folk, who can afford to quick-fix osteoporosis (even avoiding the bother of drug regimens and dietary changes by repeatedly performing the quick-fix) will prefer bone density augmentation. They will pay the nicer kind of augmentation clinic, which will in turn "invest" in corrupt politicians that will render the competing, cheaper, products illegal should the means and opprtunity present themselves.


Bioware doesn't do any kind of gene modification. The implants are genome independant. Bone density augmentation, in particular, involves no biologically active components. It's as easy to remove as the cyber equivalent in that regard.

Nanotech requires waiting for weeks, to months, to completely remove. You can't flush it out without inserting more nanotech (namely blue nano programmed to hunt down the target nano).


Progress!

And lobbying by larger augmentation clinic franchises. Bone Density Augmentation has a higher profit margin than lacing - you're paying the same surgery team to implant the same kind of off-the-shelf augmentation, just at a higher price.

Bone density may not require any active genetic manipulation but it can still be accidental implanted in the wrong spots crating the conditions I mentioned. And you should be able to shut down (fry) "hard" nano with a directed EMP. So called "soft" nano would be a different story but may just require a virus that targets the soft nano genetic code.

Personally, while I normally shy away from house rules, I would change the legality to R for both bone lacing and bone density augmentation. It's easier than coming up with a bunch of convoluted explanations to try and make sense of an illogical rule.

No more so than bone lacing, though.

As to hard nano being EMP vulnerable? It depends quite heavily on what the nano actually is. Some of it might be completely electrically inactive - merely nanoscale structure dumped into the bloodstream. In fact, simple mechanical structures would be the most reliable nano since they don't have room for that damned quantum jumping to cause problems.

Soft nano being vulnerable to virus infection has a major problem; the same thing hunting down the soft nano will hunt down the virus. Immune system, remember? Furthermore, you're assuming that the soft nano isn't a manufactured protein. Even ignoring the fact that some soft nano are going to share surface proteins with important cells (like neurons).


Remind me how they're going to identify subjects of Bone Density Augmentation over someone who just have bones that are naturally more dense?

A simple X-ray would easily determine if someone had Bone Density Augmentation. Once people hit an adult age, there is a certain density that their bones should be (and even in a child, a radiologist today can determine someone's age within 6 months of accuracy based on X-rays of their bones). Any deviation from this norm is considered a sign of disease, from osteoporosis to a sentinel sign of cancer or genetic disease, and would be flagged as such. Even in an Awakened world, I'd bargain that an X-ray could easily determine if someone has undergone Bone Density Augmentation unless they have custom Deltaware installed or other GM-determined mitigating factor. Humans don't "naturally have denser bones" throughout their skeletal system (maybe in specific areas, after repeated trauma and stress, but these would be easily viewable outliers).

Of course, who's to say what's normal for a Troll or an Ork? But after 60 years, there would be easy ways to cross-reference normal standard radiographs. Heck, they probably have computer programs to spit out a number which compares to a normal range.

And you are forgetting bone lacing has several decades worth of trial and error improvements that bone density augmentation has not had.


I am not going to speculate the real life design of either type of nano. The research papers I have read do not coincide fully with what is in the book so it is irrelevant.
However, going by their description in the book, hard nano would be as vulnerable to EMP as standard drones are since the book says they are basically really small drones. And soft nano are described as micro-organisms like bacteria or viruses. The book also states that their cell walls contain proteins that are the same as the host cells so they are not attacked by the host system. Honestly, I don't know how one would remove soft nano as described in the book without sending in other nano, I was merely offering how it might be done.

The simple fact is the cyberware has been around (in the SR universe) for many decades. It is tried and true time tested technology. It is known and predicable. Bioware is written as an old but still emergent technology with geneware and nanoware cutting edge. Heck, it was not that long ago in SR terms that they still "grew" entire clones to harvest a single bioware organ. Cybeware has had more public scrutiny and more time for judicial rulings. Whether or not it deserves such rules and regulations is irrelevant. In fact, I could see corporations using the fact that some cyberware has become illegal to use as a marketing ploy to sell bio/gene/nanoware product. Cyberware is also now considered old fashioned and out of date so people will embrace the new (less regulated) products. That much is even written into the fluff of the books.

To be honest, if this all of this tech where around now and for the duration each has been around as per SR, I would trust cyberware more than any of the other 3. In fact I am surprised that cyber costs so much essence with the amount of long-term research into the holistic repercussions on the body. The first cyberhand was installed to a violinist some time in 2025 or so. (I don't recall when exactly) That is what, 40 to 50 years of research, you would think that it would be much less invasive than it is in 2070. That is the true question, not legality, since runners are going to acquire it anyway. I would rather see an add-on that you could get to cyber to disguise it as something else so as to not fall under scrutiny and with lower essence costs than what they are now. Legality can be circumvented, essence not so much. And don't count grades... All of the above technologies benefit from grades so it should not be taken into account.

I thought hahnsoo's answer was good, but my personal attitude is that wired reflexes are easier to spot than synaptic boosters, but both are legality R. Same for muscle toner and augmentation vs. muscle replacement. I feel that bone lacing and bone density augmentation should also be treated similarly.

It would be one of those things that could be detected with a cyberware scanner or UWBR - those things see density. In fact, the UWBR is a nice way of keeping skeleton reference of people, or looking at broken bones.

Of course, there should be a Threshold modifier of at least +1 to detect BDA compared to the normal implant level.

This. I consider the legality code of bone lacing a simple mistake by the devs.

repeated use and impact increases bone denisty, someone who routinely strikes hard surfaces with their fists, or jumps off high places, gets the same effect. they hit harder get injured less, etc... they also weigh more simply by virtue of being sturdy
being able to judge density by age is only accurate when the person leads a "normal" lifestyle. once you become abnormal it isn't any more accurate.

Bone density is measured in terms of the number of standard deviations above or below the mean for the ethnicity and gender of a particular person. Bone density is naturally variable and probably follows a normal distribution. In other words, you have a trade-off between false-positives and false-negatives. If you set the cutoff higher, then you will see fewer mistaken identifications of normal people as having dangerous combat augmentations, but you will also miss people who have had said augmentation whilst having a lower than normal bone density to begin with. Furthermore, there is little to say that BDA is, by necessity, a universal treatment. It is likely that one could tailor the profile of the augmentation to mimic the kind of natural response to trauma.

The fact is that BDA is fundamentally different from lacing because it introduces no inorganic material and it is therefore undetectable. It serves a perfectly valid role in the treatment of osteopenia and osteoporosis. It's also politically indefensible to tell people who have been born with abnormally dense bones that they are now illegal through no fault of their own.


The degree of commonality between BDA and Lacing (both add material to the bones) leads me to believe that any technique improvements developed for lacing could easily be adapted for BDA.

This deviation from the mean that you describe is a standard deviation from normal. In order to give the benefits listed in SR literature, bone density augmentation would have to be a density far above normal (an outlier). While one can argue that a higher bone density achieves a higher augmented Body attribute and thus can be analogous to people with higher Body attributes in Shadowrun (in simple terms, a person with a 3 Body with 3 points of BDA similar to a bone density of a person with a 6 Body, for example), being able to punch as hard as someone whose bones are laced with plastic or titanium is NOT normal, and the density would be an outlier above normal to achieve that (to the point where the bones would be less plastic and more brittle*, unless reinforced... and this reinforcement would be seen on an X-ray).

Most radiologists are fairly good at identifying changes in the bone specifically, whether from artificial or natural causes. According to most journal articles, they are especially good at detecting small changes (within 10% of mean) and large changes (greater than 60% of mean), and are better than bone density scans at determining artificial anomalies. The common radiograph is a remarkably good tool for this, and although it depends on the skill of the viewer, a radiologist sees hundreds of X-rays (if not more) a week.

I can see your point, and in your game, you may wish to enforce that point. We can argue over the numbers until we are blue in the face (right now, we are being very civil and I don't feel that we are arguing), and it wouldn't really answer anything (being a fictional game and all, and a poorly thought-out piece of bioware, biologically speaking). I've had a lot of personal experience with radiologists, so I know how good they can be at pointing out bone disease on seemingly innocuous X-rays. I don't see that the ability to punch people with a force harder than a baseball bat as being within the standards of normal for bone structure.

Still, if the standard for determining bone density remains the typical bone density scan, there are ways that you can trick and fool those scans biologically (inserting certain inert compounds into the bone to increase structural integrity while fooling the scan, for example), all of which could be the realm of deltaware or other high grade bioware.

* While it may seem counter-intuitive that increased bone density would cause more fractures without reinforcement, this is actually one of the concerns with the current regimen of bisphosphonate drugs on the market today.

Not really, it is the bones ability to bend under pressure is what keeps it from breaking. Shearing and high shock loads can and do overcome the bones ability to absorb impacts and increasing the bone density could (if done improperly or to densely) would weaken the bones ability to flex and cause more traumatic injuries than just a broke bone.

the first part is an opinion, Density to strength ratio does not "have" to be increased mass, the name of th procedure could be called BDA but actually reflect stronger materials.
yes being able to punch as hard is not normal, however "not normal" does not mean "super human" look at real life a single punch can kill, these people have both the knowledge of how to hit, and the strength to do it, both in bone and muscle.

for each argument a counter argument can be formed and supported, you have alot of experience with most likely good technicians who are apt in their field I have the opposite. the bottom line for this type of discussion is as you have stated simply go with what your group likes, go with what makes sense to you.

Radiologists aren't technicians. They are doctors. They have MDs. They have over 12 years of schooling for the privilege of becoming a radiologists, along with 4 years of residency. These are the people who look at your radiographs, and the people who will determine in the future whether or not someone has had bone density augmentation.

I just had a "moment": Welcome to Dumpshock, where we argue pointlessly about fictional bone augmentations/shapeshifter adepts/insert nonsensical subject here. *grin* It's good to be back. I think.

I was speaking of the Technicians those individuals who are the minimum wage no training, no experience, know's a guy who know's a guy to get the job, nobody's who actually perform the function of getting the X-ray to the radiologist.

in addition a radiologist who is a moron but squeaked by on the minimum grade level required to pass, or bribed his way into the degree, has the same level of weight and "authority" as the ones who actually know what they are doing, and there are far more of the former practicing than the latter.

Those people don't exist. Even the person who mans the front desk at a hospital is a trained nurse.

we can get into a "yes! no!" argument all day, so I'll just leave with this. they exist and they work in the medical field, as well as many fields that require specialty training. people who don't speak, or read english took a test written in english and "passed" to be accepted at a job that requires a certain number of specific types of people to be hired regardless of whether or not they are able or certified, or trained to do the job. most because they know somebody.
and again "trained" doesn't mean "good."

this applies to all aspects of the game, when using the Idea that the clerk, or doctor, or technician, or security guy, are the "average" or "good" at their job just remember unless you are specifically noting as the GM that this NPC is good at their job most people, are less than average at being able to perform their duties. whether because they just can't do it, or they are new, or sick, or just don't care. they miss things, ALL the time, there are managers who specifically hire less than capable individuals in order to simply have someone to "throw under the bus" whenever they need to save their job.
a quick MAD scan by a security going into the club might notice you have BDA, or bonelacing, they might not. but just because they DO notice, doesn't mean they know what it is, and cause commotion because they think you might be packing.

Remember... 50% of all Doctors were in the lower half of their class...

And Draco18, these people do indeed exist in the real world (The receptionist at the front desk of my hospital is not a Nurse, to counter your specific example, she is a Receptionist, nothing more), so why would you not expect them to exist in the Dystopian world of Shadowrun...

Keep the Faith

Of course. Someone has to come in last, just like someone has to come in first. In a bad class, #1 will suck. In a good class, #100 will rock. Straight "bottom half of their class" doesn't really mean much.

Of course, the people at the bottom probably didn't pass, so they aren't actually (legal) doctors.

My point was that half the Doctors are at your average level of competency or lower (of the 100% that actually become Doctors, half of them are at the bottom of their class)... it sucks to get the Doctor that barely passed his exams and certification... but that Doctor performs the same functions as the Doctor that aced his exams at University/Residency etc.

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

Conversely, if you are in a location where you have an incompetent radiologist looking at your X-ray, you are far more likely to be in a location where the local government or corporations doesn't care that you have augmentations. If the target location cares about your permits or the legal code of your augmentations, you'd likely have a trained and competent scanner. Governments and corporations may hire corrupt, incompetent, or lazy folks to do these scans, but then you wouldn't be worrying about the legality of your cyberware/bioware in your game, if this was the case. When your shadowrunners break into a corporate facility and want to get past the medical/legal aspects of a forged identity, they would do their homework and make sure the person doing the scan is compromised or that it doesn't matter. Otherwise, they are screwed.

And even a poor radiologist would be able to find simple bone density markers, at the epiphyseal plates. Non-radiologist doctors can do this (and are expected to, during their residency).

I'm not surprised if legal ratings have loopoholes or inconstencies - they happen in real life too. And in the specific case of the bone lacing/bone density augmentation debate, it's perfectly possible :

Bone lacing is an older and cheaper method. Which means it will have filtered at street level far more than it's bioware relative. Toss in a few mediatized incidents of some bone-lace ganger or crazed vet beating a suitable target to a pulp, toss in a few anecdotes of titanium-laced trolls shrugging enough bullets to trash the cops and voila. Instant public pressure to regulate more tightly that horrible technology.

Then comes the bioware equivalent, without that history, and the lawmaker turn a blind eye... Until some mediatized case pop up, it's still under the radar.

Maybe BDA's legal because it's new, and maybe BL is illegal because it was targeted for political reasons.
All of this is interpretation, which is the realm of the GM. And if the GM wants to he can rule whatever he wants, so it's a moot point.


As to needing 12 years of schooling to read an x-ray, that's outdated thinking when a guy can slot a chip and become a surgeon.

This is quite true. An average (Intuition 3, assuming we are going for the equivalent of a Perception test here, only with medical knowledge rather than detecting a ninja. It could be a Logic 3, too. Average, either way.) person with a Rating 4 Medicine skillsoft (or possibly Radiology skillsoft, if you want to get more specialized) can gear up 7 dice to read an X-ray, which should be sufficient to detect Basic or Alpha grade bioware (even with a Threshold of 2). With better scanners (bonus dice of 1 to 6), you can probably go higher without a lick of training.