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MrOramri
Okay on my last run my shadowruners were in a car chase driving away a stolen car followed by two sedans with bad guys. Near the end of the chase I had a Pilot groundcraft test for both cars to avoid a pedestian crosing that was filled with pedestrians. Both cars failed the test hurdling them into a mob of girl scouts and sending the girls flying into the air then fall back to earth with a loud "THUD". Also later the fighter ran over and stole multipal boxes of girl scout cookies from the dead scouts in question.

Does that deserve a notoriety?
ravensoracle
rotfl.gif Only if it ended up on youtube and they could be identified by others from the shadows.
Summerstorm
They stole the cookies? FIENDS.

Ah well, if they are clearly in connection with that "incident" and can be identified... sure, why not? (Wait did they ran the scouts over, or the two following cars?)
MrOramri
Every car ran over the scouts. lol
Aaron
Short answer? Yes.

Long answer:
[ Spoiler ]
kzt
QUOTE (Aaron @ Dec 26 2009, 02:01 PM) *
Short answer? Yes.

Long answer:
[ Spoiler ]

I have to agree with Aaron. It pains me to do this, but he's right.

This is actually the kind of thing that gets a task force organized. It's amazing what 40 guys with 10-12 dice of investigation and data search can do to your alibis. Not to mention the 200 agents looking for video/gridguide and 20 spirits with search.

If you are confused what the spirits do, the pieces of the car knocked off in the collision make most excellent material links. And you can use the pieces of the car to create a symbolic link to the driver.
betterwatchit
If they can be linked to it, yeah. Absolutely.
Ascalaphus
IIRC, you get Notoriety for killing innocent bystanders..
AngelisStorm
Yes, even if they can't be identified. If they can't be IDed (yet), then the notoriety gets attached to "Girl scout murdering John Does," and the characters get Dark Secret (or whichever is the negative quality that, if found out, gives you a notoriety point).
ravensoracle
This may actually be a good time to add a adversary NPC. I am seeing a TM/hacker that is appalled by the carnage of killing innocent little girls, maybe he has a little sister or something, and he decides to start looking for possible cameras that could have recorded the footage. Maybe he backtracked the car chase until he found a traffic camera that recorded the faces of those occupying a car running the light. It would take a few days but suddenly the PC's find that their faces are being posted all over the shadow community as "the ones that make us all look bad." It may be fun to have the teams hacker run into this guy while trying to clean up all the evidence.
hahnsoo
The "good news" is that once they get a point of Notoriety for killing an innocent, they can't get another Notoriety point for killing more innocents unless you take it to the "next level" (blowing up a mall during a holiday or something). They'll just be known as folks who slaughter innocents on occasion: "Those bozos kill innocents... it was all over the news. Are you sure you want hire them?" "It is because of their callousness to individual lives that I am hiring them... we are, after all, Horizon, and would never involve ourselves in such dirty work, right?"
AngelisStorm
QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Dec 26 2009, 08:19 PM) *
The "good news" is that once they get a point of Notoriety for killing an innocent, they can't get another Notoriety point for killing more innocents unless you take it to the "next level" (blowing up a mall during a holiday or something). They'll just be known as folks who slaughter innocents on occasion: "Those bozos kill innocents... it was all over the news. Are you sure you want hire them?" "It is because of their callousness to individual lives that I am hiring them... we are, after all, Horizon, and would never involve ourselves in such dirty work, right?"


Is that official?

Because my take isn't -just- that Notoriety is your negative street cred (which is what it sounds like you are describing), it is also your public awareness. People don't get desensitized to someone who does something big; they go "what the hell? He hasn't been caught!?" when they do it again. (Two buildings, two planes, two schools, another group of police, whatever.)
hahnsoo
SR4A, p 265:
"Note that a character should never earn a Notoriety point for something he’s already earned a Notoriety point for, unless he has
somehow gone about it in an innovative way."

It's right there along with all the other Street Cred and Notoriety rules. Public Awareness is Street Cred + Notoriety divided by 3, so it IS part of your public awareness. Notoriety SUBTRACTS from your Street Cred bonus and ADDS to your Public Awareness, which means it's bad on all accounts (unless you want to be notorious and well-known).

This limit is good, in my opinion, because it prevents certain types of players of trying to game the Notoriety system for free Intimidation dice. Notoriety can actually help you in certain situations, although the negatives certainly outweigh the positives.
Jaid
@ angelisstorm:

if it troubles you that much, i would suggest just adding it as a direct modifier to their public awareness stat. notoriety is intended to reflect what kind of negative view people have of them. it's not so much that people don't care when it's repeated, it's simply that people already know they kill innocents. the characters are already known for killing innocents, so it shouldn't change people's views on them if they kill innocents. now, on the other hand, if they kill innocents through carelessness, and then later are spotted killing innocents just for the heck of it, then that would probably be worth another point of notoriety.

@ the OP: well, up until someone got out of the car to loot the girl scouts, i was leaning towards no (unless they had a really distinctive vehicle), because it's listed as an assumed feature of vehicles that the windows cannot be seen through from the outside somewhere (it's discussing the fact that you can't target spells at people inside vehicles normally because of this feature). however, once they got out of the vehicle and could be identified (unless the character who stole the cookies was taking extreme precautions to conceal identity; it doesn't sound like it), any hope of anonymity was basically gone, and it definitely became worth a point of notoriety.
Saint Sithney
@Jaid
Besides the problem of identifying them, the headline "Car Chase Turns Deadly" is way more generic than "Terrorists Flatten Girlscout Troop, Come Back for Cookies." That's a story which turns some heads.
Tsuul
Which corp indoctrinates .... er ah .... sponsors the Girl Scouts again? I sense a Black Ops badge is about to be earned.
Jaid
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Dec 26 2009, 09:42 PM) *
@Jaid
Besides the problem of identifying them, the headline "Car Chase Turns Deadly" is way more generic than "Terrorists Flatten Girlscout Troop, Come Back for Cookies." That's a story which turns some heads.


it doesn't much matter which headline it is if nobody can attach a name or face to it. but yes, running over girlscouts, and then coming back for the cookies, is indeed much more memorable than just getting into a car accident that injures innocents.

(that being said, the other cars that ran over the girlscouts are probably also in trouble)
kzt
It's high enough profile to get a KE, LS or FBI ritual sorcery team involved. KE has mages who can do serious magic in a -9 mana void....

If the PCs don't leave town and hide in a honking big ward they are going to have a very serious problem in the near future. If they do leave town and hide in a honking big ward they are still likely to have a serious problem in the near future.
kzt
double post....
Mercer
The weird part (and I bring this up every so often) is that if the runners were cool, professional types who had earned enough Street Cred to get their Public Awareness up and then ran over the Girl Scout's, then they could buy down their Street Cred with the point of Notoriety they gained. Their Public Awareness would drop because they ran the kids over.

That's why every runner who has made a career playing it smart and low key has to take a break and throw the mayor under a bus on live 3v, otherwise they get too well known.
kzt
The idea behind street cred and notoriety isn't bad, but the mechanics suck.
Jaid
QUOTE (Mercer @ Dec 26 2009, 11:08 PM) *
The weird part (and I bring this up every so often) is that if the runners were cool, professional types who had earned enough Street Cred to get their Public Awareness up and then ran over the Girl Scout's, then they could buy down their Street Cred with the point of Notoriety they gained. Their Public Awareness would drop because they ran the kids over.

That's why every runner who has made a career playing it smart and low key has to take a break and throw the mayor under a bus on live 3v, otherwise they get too well known.


there is no rule preventing you from having negative notoriety. the runner who burns street cred to go into the negatives for notoriety will therefore have a lower public awareness rating than a runner who threw the mayor under a bus and then burned street cred to remove the added notoriety. indeed, if the runner goes far enough into the negatives, eventually he will have a negative public awareness...
tagz
QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Dec 27 2009, 02:02 AM) *
SR4A, p 265:
"Note that a character should never earn a Notoriety point for something he’s already earned a Notoriety point for, unless he has
somehow gone about it in an innovative way."

That leaves a whole lot of interpretation wiggle room if you ask me. The word "something" is very general so depending on what the GM considers that something to be it could vary greatly.

Could see that as only 1 point for killing innocents ever unless they afterwards do something insane like dress the bodies as clowns and line them up on Main Street

1 for each MANNER of killing innocents (ie the something is "Killing innocents BY _____": running over, shooting, caught in an explosion, etc) so only 1 for blowing up innocents no matter how many times you blow up innocents, but shoot some and you get another point since it's not the same something

1 for each level of intent (ie the something is "Killing innocents due to _____": manslaughter, heat of the moment, premeditated, etc).

And these are just examples off the top of my head... I wish they gave an example.

I just try to go by what makes sense for the situation.
Cardul
QUOTE (Mercer @ Dec 27 2009, 12:08 AM) *
That's why every runner who has made a career playing it smart and low key has to take a break and throw the mayor under a bus on live 3v, otherwise they get too well known.


Amusingly, I could see throwing the current in-game governor of Seattle under a Bus on live 3V, shooting him with an assault cannon, and then stuffing a grenade in his mouth, arming, and walking away could give one Street Cred *AND*
Notoriety! Too bad there is no "Street Cred among certain groups" type thing...
Nows7
QUOTE (Cardul @ Dec 27 2009, 09:58 AM) *
Amusingly, I could see throwing the current in-game governor of Seattle under a Bus on live 3V, shooting him with an assault cannon, and then stuffing a grenade in his mouth, arming, and walking away could give one Street Cred *AND*
Notoriety! Too bad there is no "Street Cred among certain groups" type thing...


My team just got framed for blowing up Josephine D. and Brockhaven at their inauguration.... I think we'll be getting ALOT of notoriety for that...

Seriously, no one on their security staff assensed the doves? Fucking exploding dove bullshit...
Cardul
QUOTE (Nows7 @ Dec 27 2009, 05:33 AM) *
My team just got framed for blowing up Josephine D. and Brockhaven at their inauguration.... I think we'll be getting ALOT of notoriety for that...

Seriously, no one on their security staff assensed the doves? Fucking exploding dove bullshit...


No, you see, now, your team gets to clear your names...Exploding Doves? Really? Sounds like an inside
job...
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (kzt @ Dec 27 2009, 06:37 AM) *
The idea behind street cred and notoriety isn't bad, but the mechanics suck.

That's a gross understatement. The only way to actually keep public awareness playable is to spend two street cred reducing notoriety - which isn't limited to positive values.
Ascalaphus
My players seem reduced to Intimidation Through Incompetence.
Mercer
QUOTE (Jaid @ Dec 27 2009, 07:01 AM) *
there is no rule preventing you from having negative notoriety.


That's an interesting intepretation Jaid, and I quite like it since it fixes the "mayor under the bus" problem. That said, it can get weird. Notoriety is a bonus to some tests (Intimidation) and a penalty to others (Negotiation), so if I have a negative Notoriety does that mean I'm penalized on Intimidation tests ("You wouldn't kill me!") and get dice for Negotiation? Buying the Notoriety down means you wouldn't get the Street Cred bonus for the Negotiation, but if having negative Notoriety means you have a bonus, it functions the same. At that point, there's no point in having Street Cred, because the bonuses work out the same (except for Intimidation tests) and your Public Awareness would never go up.

Personally, I think Public Awareness should be based primarily off Notoriety instead, so that characters have buy off Notoriety with Street Cred to lower their Public Awareness. (Outside of Rocker/'Punk/Mohawk games, having a high Public Awareness is usually considered to be a bad thing.)
Ascalaphus
You'd want to split Notoriety into Fail Points and Bastard Points. The latter intimidate, the former mostly hinder your attempts to negotiate a good fee.
AngelisStorm
QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Dec 26 2009, 09:02 PM) *
SR4A, p 265:
"Note that a character should never earn a Notoriety point for something he’s already earned a Notoriety point for, unless he has
somehow gone about it in an innovative way."


Except that the way that sentense is written, a valid interpretation is that you cannot gain another point of Notoriety for the exact same act (ex: the girl scouts, if the news happens to run a "follow up" special on an especially slow news day a month later).

Otherwise a serial killer cannot gain additional points of Notoriety if he follows the same MO, no matter how many people he kills, because people go "ho hum, seen that already *click, change of channel*."
hobgoblin
if one go for negative notoriety, it sounds like one have to go saint, or something.

end result is that public awareness hits rock bottom as noone will go "its him, call the cops!" when seen. tho one could claim that anyone in that position would be a celebrity, altho that depends on the readers bleak view of the press in SR, as it could be that they only bother to report anything other then bad news if its a very slow day (where do i have the concept of a daily death toll lottery from?)...

and iirc, burning street cred to reduce notoriety is said to be a act of abandoning old connections and handles, basically starting a new life. Given that, i am unsure if any of the values can ever go below zero, as at that point your just another gray man in the crowd of gray men.
Rotbart van Dainig
Street Cred and Public Awareness can't be less than 0 - only Notoriety can.

And, yeah - you'll have quite a problem intimidating people that know you: While the bonus from Street Cred is capped to your Charisma, the one from Notoriety isn't...
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Mercer @ Dec 27 2009, 08:19 AM) *
That's an interesting intepretation Jaid, and I quite like it since it fixes the "mayor under the bus" problem. That said, it can get weird. Notoriety is a bonus to some tests (Intimidation) and a penalty to others (Negotiation), so if I have a negative Notoriety does that mean I'm penalized on Intimidation tests ("You wouldn't kill me!") and get dice for Negotiation? Buying the Notoriety down means you wouldn't get the Street Cred bonus for the Negotiation, but if having negative Notoriety means you have a bonus, it functions the same. At that point, there's no point in having Street Cred, because the bonuses work out the same (except for Intimidation tests) and your Public Awareness would never go up.

Personally, I think Public Awareness should be based primarily off Notoriety instead, so that characters have buy off Notoriety with Street Cred to lower their Public Awareness. (Outside of Rocker/'Punk/Mohawk games, having a high Public Awareness is usually considered to be a bad thing.)


The way that we handle this is to completely disappear off of the grid, get a complete new Identity (complete with cosmetic mods and possible DNA reworking, Phenotype readjustments) and then re-appear back on the streets as a completely different runner... this sucks in that all of your contacts are no longer valid, unless you clue them into the switch, which is sort of counter-productive... in effect, you are treated as a new runner with a 0 Karma, 0 Contacts, 0 Pulic Awareness and 0 Notoriety... you get to start all over again, from the ground up... except that you are a highly expereinced character... I have managed to do this twice in game...it works out pretty well...

Note: you should probably change your style and methods for this approach, or some enterprising detective is going to eventually tie the 2 identities together...
hahnsoo
QUOTE (AngelisStorm @ Dec 27 2009, 11:03 AM) *
Except that the way that sentense is written, a valid interpretation is that you cannot gain another point of Notoriety for the exact same act (ex: the girl scouts, if the news happens to run a "follow up" special on an especially slow news day a month later).

Otherwise a serial killer cannot gain additional points of Notoriety if he follows the same MO, no matter how many people he kills, because people go "ho hum, seen that already *click, change of channel*."
It is quoted within the context of "here's an example list of things that you can gain a point of Notoriety for". Then the sentence follows that list, and composition-wise, it refers back to that list. An element in that list is "Killing an innocent". You can divorce the meaning from the context and come up with all sorts of crazy stuff, I guess. But most rules in most RPGs are placed within a context that is important to their meaning.

Sorry for not listing the entire entry, but I get antsy when I quote more than my "fair use" allotment. That's what page numbers references are for, anyway. Notoriety isn't a great rule, but it's functional (more functional than Bad Karma from previous editions, anyway).

The idea is that a serial killer should not gain additional points of Notoriety if he follows the same MO. Everyone already knows that the serial killer kills through a certain method. This is not new information, even if done repeatedly. It's not a linear scale of bad-assery.

Note that Notoriety also includes flaws that are detrimental to running the shadows in general (like Scorched and Infirm). Some of these flaws definitely shouldn't add to an Intimidation check, but by RAW, they do.
Aaron
I'm thinking that Notoriety is less about a list of what you've done in the past and more about what "people" think you're capable of. Think, well, reputation.
kzt
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Dec 27 2009, 11:59 AM) *
The way that we handle this is to completely disappear off of the grid, get a complete new Identity (complete with cosmetic mods and possible DNA reworking, Phenotype readjustments) and then re-appear back on the streets as a completely different runner... this sucks in that all of your contacts are no longer valid, unless you clue them into the switch, which is sort of counter-productive... in effect, you are treated as a new runner with a 0 Karma, 0 Contacts, 0 Pulic Awareness and 0 Notoriety... you get to start all over again, from the ground up...

If you are going to use the idiocy that is RAW on this you need to use ALL the rules and not just make shit up to penalize a successful player.
kzt
QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Dec 27 2009, 12:24 PM) *
The idea is that a serial killer should not gain additional points of Notoriety if he follows the same MO. Everyone already knows that the serial killer kills through a certain method. This is not new information, even if done repeatedly. It's not a linear scale of bad-assery.

So if you send out videos of yourself unmasked murdering little kids every week nobody has a better chance of recognizing you at the end of week 52 than they do at week 1......
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Aaron @ Dec 27 2009, 09:31 PM) *
I'm thinking that Notoriety is less about a list of what you've done in the past and more about what "people" think you're capable of.

So that's why the Incompetency Quality adds into Notoriety? grinbig.gif
QUOTE (kzt @ Dec 27 2009, 09:36 PM) *
So if you send out videos of yourself unmasked murdering little kids every week nobody has a better chance of recognizing you at the end of week 52 than they do at week 1......

Of course, if those later videos aren't providing something new, you'll get downranked at youtube.
Aaron
Fair enough, Rotty: or not capable of. =i)
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (kzt @ Dec 27 2009, 12:32 PM) *
If you are going to use the idiocy that is RAW on this you need to use ALL the rules and not just make shit up to penalize a successful player.


What idiocy are you talking about? I must have missed something... I am curious...what part of this is made up and outside of RAW?... this sort of thing (sans the Phenotype and DNA changes) happens today IRL; can't be all that hard in the 2070's... especially with massively invasive cosmetic surgery and gene-tweaking available...

And besides... I was the player, ands the only player that has doene so in more than 5 years of playing in this group, and I initiated it voluntarily so that I could disappear from teh Corp that I used to work for, and to eliminate the traces of my former persona... so your point is really moot. If you actually had a point, I am still trying to figure it out...

Keep the Faith
Jaid
QUOTE (kzt @ Dec 27 2009, 02:36 PM) *
So if you send out videos of yourself unmasked murdering little kids every week nobody has a better chance of recognizing you at the end of week 52 than they do at week 1......

no, it simply won't add to your notoriety. i am unaware of any rule stating your public awareness cannot be directly modified. in point of fact, in the section about public awareness, it says:

QUOTE (SR4A p 265 @ "Public Awareness")
At the gamemaster’s discretion, any exceptional efforts
the character has made to keep her profile low and activities secret can
be used to reduce this score. Likewise, if anything the character does
is intentionally or inadvertently splashed on the news, the gamemaster
should increase the score accordingly.


public awareness goes up, notoriety stays the same; people who will deal with you after you murder 1 child will generally still deal with you after you murder 52, from a moral perspective (though from a perspective of you being too much of a public figure, that is likely not the case). people who will be intimidated because you are a known child murderer will not be more intimidated because you've done it more than once. they already knew you were a horrible person who murders children. they probably already assumed the first one wasn't your first.

did anyone actually read this section before making comments about how you couldn't do anything to reduce your public awareness using a great deal of caution and laying low? because it looks awfully clear to me that public awareness is influenced by street cred and notoriety, but can also be directly modified without changing either of the other two stats.
hahnsoo
QUOTE (Jaid @ Dec 27 2009, 11:54 PM) *
did anyone actually read this section before making comments about how you couldn't do anything to reduce your public awareness using a great deal of caution and laying low? because it looks awfully clear to me that public awareness is influenced by street cred and notoriety, but can also be directly modified without changing either of the other two stats.
The answer, as always, is no. Except for me. But I'm the one who's directly quoting from the book, giving the page numbers. *grin* Just kidding.

It works better than Bad Karma. It's not awesome, but honestly, this is one of the many nebulous things that SHOULD be arbitrated by a GM, regardless of what ruleset or campaign you are running. Unlike the hundred other nebulous things that the designers of SR4 were too lazy to create good and solid rules for (like every section that says "For simplicity", of which the content that follows is most certainly not simple or creates more complicated problems down the line). *grin*
kzt
At the gamemaster's discretion PCs are immune to bullets too. And at the gamemasters discretion nobody notices them strolling down the street downtown in full armor leaving bloody footprints while carrying assault cannons. If the best argument you can come up for the rules is "the GM should feel free to ignore our crappy rules when they are too obviously stupid to be followed" I don't see that as a strong support for how great the rules are.
Generico
Who was arguing the rules are great?
Mercer
The weird thing about buying down Notoriety... okay, okay, one of the weird things about buying down Notoriety to reduce Public Awareness is that if Lone Star (now KE) has a file on you, they're always going to have a file on you (unless you hack them, ha ha).

Reviewing my files, it occurs to me that my position has not changed significantly since I posted this:

Reputation, Notoriety and Public Awareness: Or How the Shadows Are Like High School
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Mercer @ Dec 28 2009, 03:05 PM) *
The weird thing about buying down Notoriety... okay, okay, one of the weird things about buying down Notoriety to reduce Public Awareness is that if Lone Star (now KE) has a file on you, they're always going to have a file on you (unless you hack them, ha ha).

See the Erased Quality, suggestions for getting rid of unwanted data in Unwired and Vice, and Chaos Engine in the latter... specifically Resonance Realm Searches, Goals, Erase Data in the former.
Mercer
I don't have those books, but I'm going to guess those things are separate from the Notoriety rules in the BBB.
Rotbart van Dainig
Sure they are, as is a Record on File from Public Awareness.

And it means it's possible to remove both.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Dec 26 2009, 04:55 PM) *
They stole the cookies? FIENDS.


You haven't tasted the goodness that is girl scout cookies, have you? If you have, you wouldn't fault them for stealing the cookies. They're pretty expensive. =(

--

QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Dec 26 2009, 10:02 PM) *
SR4A, p 265:
"Note that a character should never earn a Notoriety point for something he’s already earned a Notoriety point for, unless he has
somehow gone about it in an innovative way."

It's right there along with all the other Street Cred and Notoriety rules. Public Awareness is Street Cred + Notoriety divided by 3, so it IS part of your public awareness. Notoriety SUBTRACTS from your Street Cred bonus and ADDS to your Public Awareness, which means it's bad on all accounts (unless you want to be notorious and well-known).

This limit is good, in my opinion, because it prevents certain types of players of trying to game the Notoriety system for free Intimidation dice. Notoriety can actually help you in certain situations, although the negatives certainly outweigh the positives.


I think that falls under the lines of double jeopardy. OJ Simpson can't be tried again for the murder of Nicole Simpson, but he could be tried in another murder case if he were to murder someone else, say Kanye West.

If OJ Simpson killed Kanye West, would he become more notorious even though he's already murdered someone? I would say yes. This is a new murder, a different murder, regardless if the method is similar or vastly different.

--

QUOTE (hahnsoo @ Dec 27 2009, 03:24 PM) *
It is quoted within the context of "here's an example list of things that you can gain a point of Notoriety for". Then the sentence follows that list, and composition-wise, it refers back to that list. An element in that list is "Killing an innocent". You can divorce the meaning from the context and come up with all sorts of crazy stuff, I guess. But most rules in most RPGs are placed within a context that is important to their meaning.

Sorry for not listing the entire entry, but I get antsy when I quote more than my "fair use" allotment. That's what page numbers references are for, anyway. Notoriety isn't a great rule, but it's functional (more functional than Bad Karma from previous editions, anyway).

The idea is that a serial killer should not gain additional points of Notoriety if he follows the same MO. Everyone already knows that the serial killer kills through a certain method. This is not new information, even if done repeatedly. It's not a linear scale of bad-assery.


Look at the serial killer archetype, and follow the public perception. The serial killer makes his first murder. The public doesn't really care, he's still not a serial killer with just one murder. He's no difference than any other murdering scum. The serial killer makes his second murder following the MO. Law enforcement will admit that the murders are similar, but it's still too early for the media to classify it as a serial killer. At this point, he's even more notorious with law enforcement. They suspect it's the same individual, and will be working harder to catch him. Then the SK makes his third murder. Law enforcement indicates that all three murders are the same suspect, media latches on and starts the serial killer story. This guy starts becoming known to the public at large. He continues to make murders, uncaught. For each additional murder, the media reports it and dedicates more time on the story. More people find out, more people want him caught, especially if they or someone they know may fit the MO. At some point, law enforcement will set up a temporary division specifically dedicated to finding and prosecuting the serial killer.

Notoriety, if we follow any proper definition of the word, is an indicator of of infamy. Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, and Jeffery Dahmer would not be as well known as they were if it weren't for the volume of kills they performed.
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