Full Version: Swag
So, my gaming group was going over buying some stuff and thought, "Hey, a cheap, low availability gun - my armorer should have that." We go through the rules and apparently it's still a rolling matter. So we're wondering if we missed something in one of the rulebooks or if this is the kind'f area that a GM would normally say, "Of course she has a Ruger Super Warhawk and normal ammo for it on hand."?
QUOTE (Falar @ Dec 29 2009, 07:08 PM) 
So, my gaming group was going over buying some stuff and thought, "Hey, a cheap, low availability gun - my armorer should have that." We go through the rules and apparently it's still a rolling matter. So we're wondering if we missed something in one of the rulebooks or if this is the kind'f area that a GM would normally say, "Of course she has a Ruger Super Warhawk and normal ammo for it on hand."?
Both. It depends on what you are most interested in:
If you want a fast gameflow and the players just want to obtain standard stuff, then by all means, forego the rolling.
If you want to play it by the books, a roll is nescessary.
Keep in mind that it does not nescessariyl have to be the char that rolls, but the connection. A good fixer easily rolls 11+dice on that roll, so having a ruger at hand should not be an issue.
Also, a fixer is not going to carry your goods around at all times. He'll have to fetch the goods and get them t you. That alone can account for most of the "delivery time". Also, keep in mind that you are not legally purchasing products, but you are aquiring goods that are "off the radar". That in itself can justify delays on even regular merchandise.
Hope that helped.
That's more or less what I assumed. And more or less what I debated as a counter ... but given the response of "oh, it's common sense that it shouldn't be that way" means I wanted to dig for more.
Basically, there's a player in my group who really doesn't dig that for his Armorer. And, given that an Armorer should logically have a fair number of guns, but also tends to have sub-fixer Negotiation, Connections and Charisma ... it can seem that you might as well go to a Fixer for everything. And he thinks that makes no sense at all.
Basically, there's a player in my group who really doesn't dig that for his Armorer. And, given that an Armorer should logically have a fair number of guns, but also tends to have sub-fixer Negotiation, Connections and Charisma ... it can seem that you might as well go to a Fixer for everything. And he thinks that makes no sense at all.
QUOTE (Falar @ Dec 29 2009, 07:17 PM)
That's more or less what I assumed. And more or less what I debated as a counter ... but given the response of "oh, it's common sense that it shouldn't be that way" means I wanted to dig for more.
Basically, there's a player in my group who really doesn't dig that for his Armorer. And, given that an Armorer should logically have a fair number of guns, but also tends to have sub-fixer Negotiation, Connections and Charisma ... it can seem that you might as well go to a Fixer for everything. And he thinks that makes no sense at all.
Basically, there's a player in my group who really doesn't dig that for his Armorer. And, given that an Armorer should logically have a fair number of guns, but also tends to have sub-fixer Negotiation, Connections and Charisma ... it can seem that you might as well go to a Fixer for everything. And he thinks that makes no sense at all.
Actually, it makes perfect sense, as you don't want your weapon registered officialy. The armorer will be less likely to store "illegal" weaponry, so he would have to account for any and all of his weapons that went "missing" just to turn uup as evidence in a murder investigation, 2 weeks down the road.
A fixer on the other hand, specializes in such "registrational transitions".
The armorer woulod be the better source, once you need weapons or armor repaired or modified, though...
My group is having this same problem about wares, because we must use Street Docs for geting this stuff and they don't have the best of charisma+negotiation.
I'm still trying to convince my GM to give bonus dice to some of the more common stuff (although in the case of some wares I get that it can't be out of shelf ware and some customization is necessary before surgery, mainly cultured bioware and cyberlimbs)
I'm still trying to convince my GM to give bonus dice to some of the more common stuff (although in the case of some wares I get that it can't be out of shelf ware and some customization is necessary before surgery, mainly cultured bioware and cyberlimbs)
What the other player and I have worked out is a combination sort'f system. Instead of rolling the interval normally, you roll first and that's how much availability the contact has on hand. Finding other stuff is a normal interval roll adding to what you go in the first roll...
So, for a Ruger Super Warhawk, you'd roll your Charisma+Negotiation+Connections and get 6 hits. Congratulations, they have it on hand. Now, if you were looking for APDS rounds, they'd have to search in 12 hour intervals until they got a total of 10 more hits.
We were thinking of a combination with that where you could specify that the contact got free hits in their specialty. Like an armorer could get +4 hits on Firearms and Armor. Or something along those lines. And then take a dice pool modifier on finding anything else. Or use the normal interval system. Something to make them not just straight-up better.
EDIT: We haven't actually convinced our GM to use this ...
So, for a Ruger Super Warhawk, you'd roll your Charisma+Negotiation+Connections and get 6 hits. Congratulations, they have it on hand. Now, if you were looking for APDS rounds, they'd have to search in 12 hour intervals until they got a total of 10 more hits.
We were thinking of a combination with that where you could specify that the contact got free hits in their specialty. Like an armorer could get +4 hits on Firearms and Armor. Or something along those lines. And then take a dice pool modifier on finding anything else. Or use the normal interval system. Something to make them not just straight-up better.
EDIT: We haven't actually convinced our GM to use this ...
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Dec 29 2009, 07:29 PM)
My group is having this same problem about wares, because we must use Street Docs for geting this stuff and they don't have the best of charisma+negotiation.
I'm still trying to convince my GM to give bonus dice to some of the more common stuff (although in the case of some wares I get that it can't be out of shelf ware and some customization is necessary before surgery, mainly cultured bioware and cyberlimbs)
I'm still trying to convince my GM to give bonus dice to some of the more common stuff (although in the case of some wares I get that it can't be out of shelf ware and some customization is necessary before surgery, mainly cultured bioware and cyberlimbs)
You need to keep a few things in mind:
1) Your contact adds his/her connection rating as a dice pool modifier to the availability test. So, even if their C+Neg pool is low, your conection level can offset that by up to +6. Not bad, if you ask me.
2) You can have your fixer look for the ware and then have your street doc implant it, once your fixer aquired it for you.
3) At least one member of your group should have a connection 4+ fixer as contact (or you need a really good Face in your group)
The only thing that I can see are the interval brackets for the availability test that could prove to be a problem, as it would mean that even in Lagos, at the Dúdú Dúdú Ôjá it would take you at least 12 hours to find a used AK-97, which (considering the fact that you are at an arms market that prides itself with selling everying, including nuclear weapons and that you are looking for the single most common weapon in this area) is absurd, to say the least. But that's where common sense and the GM overrule SR rules, in my opinion.
As a general guideline, I find the availability rules of SR4 quite okay and their outcome plausible.
QUOTE (D2F @ Dec 29 2009, 04:16 PM)
You need to keep a few things in mind:
1) Your contact adds his/her connection rating as a dice pool modifier to the availability test. So, even if their C+Neg pool is low, your conection level can offset that by up to +6. Not bad, if you ask me.
2) You can have your fixer look for the ware and then have your street doc implant it, once your fixer aquired it for you.
3) At least one member of your group should have a connection 4+ fixer as contact (or you need a really good Face in your group)
1) Your contact adds his/her connection rating as a dice pool modifier to the availability test. So, even if their C+Neg pool is low, your conection level can offset that by up to +6. Not bad, if you ask me.
2) You can have your fixer look for the ware and then have your street doc implant it, once your fixer aquired it for you.
3) At least one member of your group should have a connection 4+ fixer as contact (or you need a really good Face in your group)
1 & 2) I'm well aware of that, but our GM (Garou) is pretty strict on which contacts can get what. The only contacts that can find ware for you are Street docs, Tamanous people and related.
3) Our Face has a UCAS Senate as contact with connection 6 even so, the contact can only do one swag for a time and use a queue system. If I order some equipment with an Arms Dealer and later our Street Samurai orders equipment with the same arms dealer, then his request will be on hold until our contact delivers my stuff.
Now, I'll agree with on using common sense. I'll even suggest Falar's ruling to Garou.
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Dec 29 2009, 08:33 PM)
1 & 2) I'm well aware of that, but our GM (Garou) is pretty strict on which contacts can get what. The only contacts that can find ware for you are Street docs, Tamanous people and related.
The he's an idiot. Fixers broker in contacts and goods alike. They are the definition of the "I know a guy that knows a guy" networking principle. If a fixer can't find it for you, it's doubtful anyone else can.
Keep in mind that Armorers and Street Docs are not nescessarily in the business of aquisition.
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Dec 29 2009, 08:33 PM)
3) Our Face has a UCAS Senate as contact with connection 6 even so, the contact can only do one swag for a time and use a queue system. If I order some equipment with an Arms Dealer and later our Street Samurai orders equipment with the same arms dealer, then his request will be on hold until our contact delivers my stuff.
Now, I'll agree with on using common sense. I'll even suggest Falar's ruling to Garou.
Now, I'll agree with on using common sense. I'll even suggest Falar's ruling to Garou.
What's the logic behind the queue? I seriously don't get it. The only possible explanation is that he wants to annoy you on purpose, which further reinforces my opinion on him, above.
QUOTE (D2F @ Dec 29 2009, 03:02 PM)
The he's an idiot. Fixers broker in contacts and goods alike. They are the definition of the "I know a guy that knows a guy" networking principle. If a fixer can't find it for you, it's doubtful anyone else can.
This is a fixer, why:
"Yeah, I know a guy who knows a guy who knows about that kind of stuff. Want me to fix you up with him?"
He says the contact is already busy with other stuffs and can only handle one requisition from the entire group. This has not becoming an issue yet (although it will become now that we are asking for stuff that gets 4+ weeks to arrive).
Also, his argument is that fixers are used to get information, licenses, SIN's and stuff like that.
Also, his argument is that fixers are used to get information, licenses, SIN's and stuff like that.
Brazillian Shinobi--I'd point your GM to SR4A p. 287 and p. 312
Fixers would be used when you want to acquire something via the black market.
You can get anything that doesn't have an F immediately, assuming you have proper identification to acquire said good.
Basically, you can get your good right away (if it isn't forbidden) if you're willing to run your fake SINs against the system for the good. So for things like 'ware or weapons that may not always be the best idea.
You can get anything that doesn't have an F immediately, assuming you have proper identification to acquire said good.
Basically, you can get your good right away (if it isn't forbidden) if you're willing to run your fake SINs against the system for the good. So for things like 'ware or weapons that may not always be the best idea.
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Dec 29 2009, 09:16 PM)
He says the contact is already busy with other stuffs and can only handle one requisition from the entire group. This has not becoming an issue yet (although it will become now that we are asking for stuff that gets 4+ weeks to arrive).
Also, his argument is that fixers are used to get information, licenses, SIN's and stuff like that.
Also, his argument is that fixers are used to get information, licenses, SIN's and stuff like that.
That reasoning doesn't even make sense. The average day of a fixer would consist of many different requisitions from different clients that he would have to manage. If he could only manage one request per day, he'd be out of business. Period.
How old is your GM, exactly? Has he ever spent a single day working in the real economy?
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Dec 29 2009, 09:33 PM)
Fixers would be used when you want to acquire something via the black market.
You can get anything that doesn't have an F immediately, assuming you have proper identification to acquire said good.
Basically, you can get your good right away (if it isn't forbidden) if you're willing to run your fake SINs against the system for the good. So for things like 'ware or weapons that may not always be the best idea.
You can get anything that doesn't have an F immediately, assuming you have proper identification to acquire said good.
Basically, you can get your good right away (if it isn't forbidden) if you're willing to run your fake SINs against the system for the good. So for things like 'ware or weapons that may not always be the best idea.
First off, that doesn't count for "restricted" items, so may want to take those off the list along with the "forbidden" items.
Secondly, just because you'd be legally allowed to buy a particular item does not nescessarily mean it's available right out of the bat. It might still be rare, or sold out, or just delayed.
Usually you'd have a pretty realistic outcome with the existing availability rules.
QUOTE (D2F @ Dec 29 2009, 03:39 PM)
That reasoning doesn't even make sense. The average day of a fixer would consist of many different requisitions from different clients that he would have to manage. If he could only manage one request per day, he'd be out of business. Period.
How old is your GM, exactly? Has he ever spent a single day working in the real economy?
How old is your GM, exactly? Has he ever spent a single day working in the real economy?
Perhaps the GM in question is using the one request per team as an artificial adjustment to keep the power level in his game down...
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Dec 29 2009, 03:16 PM)
He says the contact is already busy with other stuffs and can only handle one requisition from the entire group. This has not becoming an issue yet (although it will become now that we are asking for stuff that gets 4+ weeks to arrive).
Also, his argument is that fixers are used to get information, licenses, SIN's and stuff like that.
Also, his argument is that fixers are used to get information, licenses, SIN's and stuff like that.
He said nothing about the fixer not helping other clients (teams) just that he treats the team as a single client and will do one thing at a time.
Now, I will agree that it is a bit silly... but it is his game.
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Dec 29 2009, 01:16 PM)
He says the contact is already busy with other stuffs and can only handle one requisition from the entire group. This has not becoming an issue yet (although it will become now that we are asking for stuff that gets 4+ weeks to arrive).
Also, his argument is that fixers are used to get information, licenses, SIN's and stuff like that.
Also, his argument is that fixers are used to get information, licenses, SIN's and stuff like that.
Fixers do a hell of a lot more than that. Anything they don't deal in directly, they "subcontract" to their own contacts. Fixers are spiders in webs of favors and information.
QUOTE (D2F @ Dec 29 2009, 04:42 PM)
First off, that doesn't count for "restricted" items, so may want to take those off the list along with the "forbidden" items.
Secondly, just because you'd be legally allowed to buy a particular item does not nescessarily mean it's available right out of the bat. It might still be rare, or sold out, or just delayed.
Usually you'd have a pretty realistic outcome with the existing availability rules.
Secondly, just because you'd be legally allowed to buy a particular item does not nescessarily mean it's available right out of the bat. It might still be rare, or sold out, or just delayed.
Usually you'd have a pretty realistic outcome with the existing availability rules.
Yes it does. Rolling and availability only are used when purchasing controlled goods off the black market.
If you're buying a restricted item through a legal channel they will run a SIN check and verify that you have a license to purchase the good in question.
Any limitations on buying restricted and other goods through legal channels beyond SIN/License limitations is purely GM fiat.
QUOTE (Mikado @ Dec 29 2009, 09:48 PM)
Perhaps the GM in question is using the one request per team as an artificial adjustment to keep the power level in his game down...
It would still be a silly way to go about it. It would be much easier for him to rule that the contacts were simply unable to procure items he deems unbalancing or interfering with his campaign. That way, the situation would at least remain plausible. A fixer than can't handle more than one customer a day is beyond silly.
QUOTE (Mikado @ Dec 29 2009, 09:48 PM)
He said nothing about the fixer not helping other clients (teams) just that he treats the team as a single client and will do one thing at a time.
Now, I will agree that it is a bit silly... but it is his game.
Now, I will agree that it is a bit silly... but it is his game.
Sure it is his game, but obviously his players are not too thrilled about it and it is absurd at best. He should consider a different approach IMO.
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Dec 29 2009, 09:58 PM)
Yes it does. Rolling and availability only are used when purchasing controlled goods off the black market.
If you're buying a restricted item through a legal channel they will run a SIN check and verify that you have a license to purchase the good in question.
Any limitations on buying restricted and other goods through legal channels beyond SIN/License limitations is purely GM fiat.
If you're buying a restricted item through a legal channel they will run a SIN check and verify that you have a license to purchase the good in question.
Any limitations on buying restricted and other goods through legal channels beyond SIN/License limitations is purely GM fiat.
After reading through SR4A again, you are right. However, the free availability 24/7 only goes for items without an availability rating.
The problem now is: We lack rules for "legal" goods with an availability rating, purchased on the free market, rather than the black market.
Personaly, I would recommend using the same rules for the availability test for those items.
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Dec 29 2009, 03:58 PM)
Yes it does. Rolling and availability only are used when purchasing controlled goods off the black market.
Soooo, why do legal things have availability? Like, say, ANFO. If I can just go get it anywhere and it doesn't need a license ... why am I rolling availability to get it?
QUOTE (Falar @ Dec 29 2009, 05:10 PM)
Soooo, why do legal things have availability? Like, say, ANFO. If I can just go get it anywhere and it doesn't need a license ... why am I rolling availability to get it?
Because you can still get them on the black market. Buying any good on a legal channel creates a lot of data for corps and others to mine that can be traced to your activities.
QUOTE (Falar @ Dec 29 2009, 04:10 PM)
Soooo, why do legal things have availability? Like, say, ANFO. If I can just go get it anywhere and it doesn't need a license ... why am I rolling availability to get it?
How long it takes to find the specialty shop that sells the stuff.
Reminds me that there was a cheap liquid cooling kit (like $50 new) made by the same company that made my mother board (offhand I'm not recalling the company name), and despite my best efforts I was unable to locate a place that actually sold it (for less than $200). Took me two days before I figured out why: they stopped producing them 3 years ago, so the ones that were still floating around had 300% markup on them.
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Dec 29 2009, 10:16 PM)
Because you can still get them on the black market. Buying any good on a legal channel creates a lot of data for corps and others to mine that can be traced to your activities.
They are still not available 24/7, if they have an availability rating. Only items without one are freely available (according to the SR4A description):
QUOTE ("Shadowrun 20th Anniversary edition p.312")
Most standard items have no Availability rating, which means that they can be purchased normally from a retail vendor—either an actual physical location or an online Matrix store
QUOTE (D2F @ Dec 29 2009, 05:23 PM)
They are still not available 24/7, if they have an availability rating. Only items without one are freely available (according to the SR4A description):
QUOTE
If a character wishes to purchased a controlled item on the black market, make a Negotiation + Charisma Extended Test with a threshold equal to the Availability and an interval based on the item's cost.
The rules only dictate that one uses availability rolling when purchasing controlled items on the black market. That would mean only for Restricted and Forbidden items.
Further, if you read under legality...
QUOTE
A restricted item may be purchased, owned, and transported under special circumstances.
The book gives examples of special circumstances for items, specifically that you need a license to purchase an own a gun, but gives no indicator whether availability needs to be rolled if purchased through a legal channel. Considering the ubiquitous nature of the Matrix as well as the large data stores corps, law enforcement, and governments have on people, it is not unreasonable that you can walk into a store, flash your SIN/license and walk out with a gun. Most of what prevent people from doing that in the United States right now is laws that require stores to do a check on the employees, which takes time, or other arbitrary legal ruling such as "wait at least 3 days".
As I said, it is GM fiat how to handle purchasing goods through legal channels, and any ability to not get the product right away is purely GM fiat on scarcity without any rules basis (that I've found) to support that proposition.
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Dec 29 2009, 10:50 PM)
The rules only dictate that one uses availability rolling when purchasing controlled items on the black market. That would mean only for Restricted and Forbidden items.
That is not correct. The rules require you to roll for availability every time you buy anything on the black market.
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Dec 29 2009, 10:50 PM)
The book gives examples of special circumstances for items, specifically that you need a license to purchase an own a gun, but gives no indicator whether availability needs to be rolled if purchased through a legal channel.
That is the problem I mentioned earlier: We know that we don't have to roll for items without an availability rating, if purchased legally (available 24/7, pretty much). We also know we have to roll for all items purchased on the black market.
What we don't know is how to translate an availability code into actual availability for any item with an availability rating purchased legally on the open market.
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Dec 29 2009, 10:50 PM)
Considering the ubiquitous nature of the Matrix as well as the large data stores corps, law enforcement, and governments have on people, it is not unreasonable that you can walk into a store, flash your SIN/license and walk out with a gun. Most of what prevent people from doing that in the United States right now is laws that require stores to do a check on the employees, which takes time, or other arbitrary legal ruling such as "wait at least 3 days".
As I said, it is GM fiat how to handle purchasing goods through legal channels, and any ability to not get the product right away is purely GM fiat on scarcity without any rules basis (that I've found) to support that proposition.
As I said, it is GM fiat how to handle purchasing goods through legal channels, and any ability to not get the product right away is purely GM fiat on scarcity without any rules basis (that I've found) to support that proposition.
I completely agree with you here.
QUOTE (D2F @ Dec 29 2009, 03:23 PM)
They are still not available 24/7, if they have an availability rating. Only items without one are freely available (according to the SR4A description):
Try again.
If you are using legal means to purchase the item (aka going down to the local gun shop / ordering online), the Availability system is bypassed entirely - the item's availability rating means shit. In it's place, a SIN check is used. If you are using a fake SIN, you roll to see if it is identified as a fake. If it passes, the purchase is made without issue. If it fails, the SIN is flagged as a fake & you probably need to wipe it or deal with law enforcement. If the item is Restricted, you also check against the fake License rating.
If you are a SINner, you can always purchase any unrestricted item you want on demand. If you happen to possess legitimate licensing for restricted gear, the same applies there.
If you go through black market channels for some reason (no data trail, your SIN's not good enough, forbidden item, etc.), then you use the Availability rules, which are generally good but can easily break down, such as in circumstances described in this thread.
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Dec 29 2009, 11:07 PM)
Try again.
As you wish, happy reading (relevant passage bolded for emphasis):
QUOTE ("Shadowrun 20th Anniversary Edition p.312")
Availability and buying Gear
The Availability rating represents how easy (or hard) it is to acquire a piece of equipment. Availability represents a range of factors: scarcity, legality, distribution issues, and so on.
Standard Goods
Most standard items have no Availability rating, which means that they can be purchased normally from a retail vendor—either an actual physical location or an online Matrix store. In this case, the character merely has to pay the listed cost for the item. The gamemaster should feel free to adjust the cost according to local market fluctuations.
Though standard goods are easy to buy, there are drawbacks. Data mining is 2072 has advanced to the point where records of legal purchases are almost always kept, shared, and cross-indexed, creating a potential datatrail back to the character. Likewise, purchasing habits are valuable information to marketing companies, so that they may tailor AR advertisements according to your specific history. It may be embarrassing to a street samurai to have a rival hacker invade his PAN and pinpoint his favorite convenience store as a place to stake out to ambush him, but it’s even more embarrassing for the samurai’s rep if that hacker spreads around the fact that he has a long purchasing history of buying used women’s toe socks. Fake IDs (p. 267) may of course be used to sidetrack the construction of any data profiles, but keep in mind that such IDs may accumulate profiles of their own after
long-term use, whether or not they are real. Note that many standard goods can also be purchased on the black market. An Availability Test is usually not necessary, but the gamemaster should adjust the price as noted under Street Values
Black Market Goods
When it comes to the interesting stuff, the higher the Availability rating is, the harder it is to acquire the item.
The Availability Test
If a character wishes to purchase a controlled item on the black market, make a Negotiation + Charisma Extended Test with a threshold equal to the Availability and an interval based on the item’s cost (see the Availability Interval table, below).
If a character is willing to expend a little bit more cash, she can increase her chances of finding a willing seller and expediting the purchase. For every additional 25% of the item’s value, the character gains an additional die on the Availability Test (maximum 10 extra dice). The character must declare her intention to spend more before making the Availability Test.
Glitches: If a character rolls a glitch on an Availability Test, her inquiries may have attracted some unwanted attention: Lone Star, a criminal syndicate, rivals or enemies, or something similar. If the character rolls a critical glitch, she may have somehow insulted someone important (cutting off that purchasing contact until amends are made) or may find herself caught in a black market sting operation.
Fixers and Availability
A character may choose to have a fixer or other contact find the gear she’s looking for. See Swag, p. 287, for details.
The Availability rating represents how easy (or hard) it is to acquire a piece of equipment. Availability represents a range of factors: scarcity, legality, distribution issues, and so on.
Standard Goods
Most standard items have no Availability rating, which means that they can be purchased normally from a retail vendor—either an actual physical location or an online Matrix store. In this case, the character merely has to pay the listed cost for the item. The gamemaster should feel free to adjust the cost according to local market fluctuations.
Though standard goods are easy to buy, there are drawbacks. Data mining is 2072 has advanced to the point where records of legal purchases are almost always kept, shared, and cross-indexed, creating a potential datatrail back to the character. Likewise, purchasing habits are valuable information to marketing companies, so that they may tailor AR advertisements according to your specific history. It may be embarrassing to a street samurai to have a rival hacker invade his PAN and pinpoint his favorite convenience store as a place to stake out to ambush him, but it’s even more embarrassing for the samurai’s rep if that hacker spreads around the fact that he has a long purchasing history of buying used women’s toe socks. Fake IDs (p. 267) may of course be used to sidetrack the construction of any data profiles, but keep in mind that such IDs may accumulate profiles of their own after
long-term use, whether or not they are real. Note that many standard goods can also be purchased on the black market. An Availability Test is usually not necessary, but the gamemaster should adjust the price as noted under Street Values
Black Market Goods
When it comes to the interesting stuff, the higher the Availability rating is, the harder it is to acquire the item.
The Availability Test
If a character wishes to purchase a controlled item on the black market, make a Negotiation + Charisma Extended Test with a threshold equal to the Availability and an interval based on the item’s cost (see the Availability Interval table, below).
If a character is willing to expend a little bit more cash, she can increase her chances of finding a willing seller and expediting the purchase. For every additional 25% of the item’s value, the character gains an additional die on the Availability Test (maximum 10 extra dice). The character must declare her intention to spend more before making the Availability Test.
Glitches: If a character rolls a glitch on an Availability Test, her inquiries may have attracted some unwanted attention: Lone Star, a criminal syndicate, rivals or enemies, or something similar. If the character rolls a critical glitch, she may have somehow insulted someone important (cutting off that purchasing contact until amends are made) or may find herself caught in a black market sting operation.
Fixers and Availability
A character may choose to have a fixer or other contact find the gear she’s looking for. See Swag, p. 287, for details.
I skipped street values as that paragraph is irrelevant to the question at hand.
As you can see above, the only specific mentions are unrestricted items without an availability rating (which you don't roll for) and controlled items on the black market (which you roll for).
There are no rules for unrestricted gear with an availability rating. Keep in mind, that the availability rating also represents scarcity and distribution difficulties. To assume an item with an availability rating is available 24/7 (as you seem to propagate) is not only absurd, it is in direct contrast with the wording of the rulebook.
Yes. However I must point out that what you have quoted regarding legal purchases is purely fluff. There is absolutely no mechanics or rules for availability restrictions on legal purchases. Thus, anything of the sort is a House Rule.
Rules as Written, legal purchases are handled precisely as I have described above.
Rules as Written, legal purchases are handled precisely as I have described above.
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Dec 29 2009, 11:33 PM)
Yes. However I must point out that what you have quoted regarding legal purchases is purely fluff. There is absolutely no mechanics or rules for availability restrictions on legal purchases. Thus, anything of the sort is a House Rule.
Rules as Written, legal purchases are handled precisely as I have described above.
Rules as Written, legal purchases are handled precisely as I have described above.
How can you so blatantly lie in the face of the original wording?
What you consider fluff is completely irrelevant to the point. The very REASON for availability ratings are to differentiate freely available gear from scarce, illegal, or troubled gear. That's not my interpretation, that what's actually literally written there in the rulebook:
QUOTE ("Shadowrun 20th Anniversary Edition p.312")
The Availability rating represents how easy (or hard) it is to acquire a piece of equipment. Availability represents a range of factors: scarcity, legality, distribution issues, and so on.
To completely dismiss that vital aspect of the avilability rating because you just don't happen to like it is massive feat of dishonesty.
But you don't stop there. No, you also have to add your very own interpretation of the rules, adding aspects not in the rules and the having the audacity to claim it the "rightful ruling" when not a single letter to that extend can be found ANYWHERE within the rules.
Now, how you set up your house rules is none of my business, but you are claiming rules to be true that quite frankly don't even exist.
- If a section of text has no mechanical support, it is fluff, not mechanics.
- The mechanics (or Crunch) of the game system account for the systems rules
Fluff indicates that Availability is a representation of how difficult it is to locate & acquire a given item.
Crunch provides no use for Availability outside of Black Market purchases.
Rules as Written, Crunch overrides Fluff - always has, always will.
Now, a little bit you need to know about me. In debates of the rules, I am rarely wrong (it has happened, but not often). Further, I always argue the Rules as Written. I also frequently make it well known that, quite often, I do not like nor use said rules. My personal House Errata documents are at least as large as the full Official Errata for 1st printings.
Unless you can provide mechanical rules quotes to contradict me, I suggest you concede the point, as any other ruling is, as I said, a House Rule.
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Dec 29 2009, 11:59 PM)
- If a section of text has no mechanical support, it is fluff, not mechanics.
- The mechanics (or Crunch) of the game system account for the systems rules
Fluff indicates that Availability is a representation of how difficult it is to locate & acquire a given item.
Crunch provides no use for Availability outside of Black Market purchases.
Rules as Written, Crunch overrides Fluff - always has, always will.
Your definition of fluff is rather arbitrary in this aspect. I would consider the purpose of the availability rating anything but fluff.
But let's just stick with "rules as written":
1) We have a ruling on what to do with legally purchased goods without an availability rating
2) We have a ruling on illegally obtained goods with an availability rating
Now for the things we don't have:
3) We don't have a ruling on legally obtained goods with an availability rating
You can try to weasel out of this one as much as you want, but you can't add text where there is none. The ruling is pretty specific about the entry on "Standard Goods" (SR4A p.312). It mentions only goods without an availability rating in respect to their accessability.
It specifically mentions both in regards to black market purchases.
Trust me, if you wanna get down to semantics I'm up for the challenge. I'm just not sure what purpose that will serve, when the outcome will most definitely be "up to the GM to decide due to a lack of specific rules".
QUOTE (D2F @ Dec 29 2009, 05:31 PM)
but you can't add text where there is none
Precisely what you are trying to do.
You are saying because there are no rules written for Availability affecting legally purchased gear, we must derive such rules from a similar rule - Availability in regards to Black Market purchasing.
I am saying because there are no rules written for Availability affecting legally purchased gear, there are no rules for it. In other words, Availability has no effect on such purchases.
Now, yes. There are rules for the lack of Availability. However, it does not clearly indicate if this is for legal purchases, black market, or both. Additionally, omitting to state something is false does not make it true. The same applies here.
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Dec 30 2009, 12:42 AM)
You are saying because there are no rules written for Availability affecting legally purchased gear, we must derive such rules from a similar rule - Availability in regards to Black Market purchasing.
Incorrect. I am saying we lack a ruling on legaly obtained, unrestricted goods with an availability rating. Period.
As to how we should deal with that situation is a suggestion at best and since you wanted to debate semantics is of no concern here.
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Dec 30 2009, 12:42 AM)
I am saying because there are no rules written for Availability affecting legally purchased gear, there are no rules for it. In other words, Availability has no effect on such purchases.
"No rules" does not mean "no effect", especially if such an effect has been stated in the text before. It simply means "no rules".
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Dec 30 2009, 12:42 AM)
Now, yes. There are rules for the lack of Availability. However, it does not clearly indicate if this is for legal purchases, black market, or both.
Incorrect. The rules for goods without an availability rating are mentioned seperately for both entries, the legal purchase as well as the black market one. Your assessment of uncertainty in regard to that fact is quite obviously erroneous.
Good Luck D2F...
Keep the Faith
Keep the Faith
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Dec 29 2009, 03:33 PM)
3) Our Face has a UCAS Senate as contact with connection 6 even so, the contact can only do one swag for a time and use a queue system. If I order some equipment with an Arms Dealer and later our Street Samurai orders equipment with the same arms dealer, then his request will be on hold until our contact delivers my stuff.
Now, I'll agree with on using common sense.
Now, I'll agree with on using common sense.
Your GM just wants to slow you down. There's not even a common sense reason for the queue. He'd be better off with just raising the availability test thresholds, or just plain adding 20% onto the time results.
But the better question would be why he wants to slow down gear acquisition. And why he also restricts what kind of contacts can get what kind of gear. Is karma coming in too slowly to balance? Too much cash? Street Samurais much more powerful than mages?
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Dec 29 2009, 06:07 PM)
If you go through black market channels for some reason (no data trail, your SIN's not good enough, forbidden item, etc.), then you use the Availability rules, which are generally good but can easily break down, such as in circumstances described in this thread.
Technically, by RAW you only use availability rules for purchasing forbidden and restricted gear on the black market. At least in the original BBB it states that when attempting to purchase controlled goods on the black market you use availability rules. Though this could mostly be due to a lack of definition, but I find controlled should mean restricted and forbidden.
I think the crunch vs. fluff argument is rather ridiculous. Writing a book in which every piece of fluff is covered by crunch creates a book that's horrible to read, and likely still doesn't do what you want to. Unambiguous, totally explicit rules are for computer programs, not anything supposed to be pleasant reading.
Rather, fluff is also meant to illustrate the reasoning behind the crunch, so that you'll understand what it's for, and so that you can easily improvise any holes you should find in the rules.
That said, let's see where crunch-extreme takes us:
- You can buy stuff without an Availability rating
- You can buy anything on the black market if you meet the hits needed for the Availability rating
Since there is no rule on legally buying things with an Availability rating.. you CAN'T.
Unless you want an absurd dystopia a la Paranoia or Brazil, you probably want to use common sense and patch this with a house rule then. Because RAW just isn't good here.
I personally like to work it like this: anything legal with an Availability of 12 or lower is instantly available. (Adjust the numbe 12 if you allow a different maximum on chargen). Anything else still requires working the market, but since it's legal, glitches won't cause as much trouble.
Rather, fluff is also meant to illustrate the reasoning behind the crunch, so that you'll understand what it's for, and so that you can easily improvise any holes you should find in the rules.
That said, let's see where crunch-extreme takes us:
- You can buy stuff without an Availability rating
- You can buy anything on the black market if you meet the hits needed for the Availability rating
Since there is no rule on legally buying things with an Availability rating.. you CAN'T.
Unless you want an absurd dystopia a la Paranoia or Brazil, you probably want to use common sense and patch this with a house rule then. Because RAW just isn't good here.
I personally like to work it like this: anything legal with an Availability of 12 or lower is instantly available. (Adjust the numbe 12 if you allow a different maximum on chargen). Anything else still requires working the market, but since it's legal, glitches won't cause as much trouble.
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Dec 30 2009, 08:34 AM)
I personally like to work it like this: anything legal with an Availability of 12 or lower is instantly available. (Adjust the numbe 12 if you allow a different maximum on chargen). Anything else still requires working the market, but since it's legal, glitches won't cause as much trouble.
I generally figure it is: anything legal with a availbility equal to the Dice Pool/2 of the shop owner is AUTOMATICALLY
available, for stuff up to 12, roll the dice if it is from 1/2 his dice pool to his dice pool and he might just have it in stock,
anything else, he has to special order. Since he is getting it legally, though, I give some bonus dice to the roll. Why?
Because a shop keeper is not going to have everything on hand..and Availability also represents scarcity.
QUOTE (D2F @ Dec 29 2009, 05:39 PM)
That reasoning doesn't even make sense. The average day of a fixer would consist of many different requisitions from different clients that he would have to manage. If he could only manage one request per day, he'd be out of business. Period.
How old is your GM, exactly? Has he ever spent a single day working in the real economy?
How old is your GM, exactly? Has he ever spent a single day working in the real economy?
QUOTE (Mikado @ Dec 29 2009, 05:48 PM)
Perhaps the GM in question is using the one request per team as an artificial adjustment to keep the power level in his game down...
He said nothing about the fixer not helping other clients (teams) just that he treats the team as a single client and will do one thing at a time.
Now, I will agree that it is a bit silly... but it is his game.
He said nothing about the fixer not helping other clients (teams) just that he treats the team as a single client and will do one thing at a time.
Now, I will agree that it is a bit silly... but it is his game.
QUOTE (Tyro @ Dec 29 2009, 05:48 PM)
Fixers do a hell of a lot more than that. Anything they don't deal in directly, they "subcontract" to their own contacts. Fixers are spiders in webs of favors and information.
What Mikado said. His argument is: "Look, I'm busy as hell right now taking care of 20 other things other people asked me, you are not the only fish in the sea". And yes, I think he is using this to keep the power level to something he can manage, it is the first time he is GMing SR4 (although we did play a lot of SR2 some ten years ago).
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Dec 30 2009, 02:36 PM)
[...]it is the first time he is GMing SR4
That explains a lot and lets me be a tad bit more lenient with him. I can understand that he wants to control the power level. All GMs want to do that. But there are better ways and he should explore some of them. Simply prohibitng items he deems to powerful, or limitng the amount of items of a particular type that can be aquisitioned at once, is a lot more plausible than "nah, you already ordered something, I'm not going to allow you to place another order since I don't want your money as a customer".
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Dec 30 2009, 08:34 AM)
I personally like to work it like this: anything legal with an Availability of 12 or lower is instantly available. (Adjust the numbe 12 if you allow a different maximum on chargen). Anything else still requires working the market, but since it's legal, glitches won't cause as much trouble.
Like I've said, the book only states that availability rules are used when buying a controlled product on the black market. Then it goes into talking about the availability rules. It is very clear on this. The book only tells you where you -must- use those rules. Beyond that is left up to GM discretion. Here's my rules of thumb.
#1 - Availability is an indicator of the odds of a purchaser of a product being data mined for purchases. A product with no availability is not going to have an personal information tagged with the purchase and is unlikely to face any real SIN checks. A product that isn't controlled, but has availability rating may personal information stored about the buyer, akin to what Amazon.com does to recommend products to you.
#2 - Any product purchased on the black market uses availability rolling.
#3 - Any product purchased through legal channels may face a SIN check.
#4 - Any restricted product purchased through legal channels will face a SIN check and a license verification.
These rules of thumbs fall right in line with my assumptions.
#1 - The manufacturing and distribution process (combined with the amount of data mining) has yielded great results in making sure brick and mortar stores always have a good on hand and that a company is never out of stock of a good and has to wait for the next production run.
#2 - The Matrix and data searches have improved to the point that ordering online, or locating a brick and mortar that sells the product is trivial.
#3 - Since Standard and Alpha grade 'ware fits anyone, it will be mass produced and fall under products in #1/#2.
#4 - Cultured bioware and Betaware is also easy to get, locate a clinic that produces it go in and give them a sample of DNA (or get sized up for the chrome) so they can grow/build it.
#5 - All the really good stuff is forbidden anyway.
#6 - I'm not going to triple to quad penalize characters for using a legal means rather than black market by also imposing availability rolls on the character for buying illegally.
To explain #6. Buying on the black market has one penalty and that is time it takes to acquire the good due to availability. There's no risks, just time. Buying through legal channels imposes a data trail on the character (and possibly a SIN check), and for restricted items forces the character go through a SIN and license check. That means that for buying a gun, the character creates a data trail on that SIN, goes through a SIN check (if it's illegal), and goes through a license check (if it's illegal). If it's not illegal, then they're already penalized for having a legal SIN/license anyway. I just can't justify also tacking availability on top of all those penalties UNLESS I don't want my players buying through legal means at all. I prefer them to have to weigh the consequences of purchasing through legal channels and getting the product right away against using the black market and having to wait to locate a vendor.
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Dec 30 2009, 03:01 PM)
To explain #6. Buying on the black market has one penalty and that is time it takes to acquire the good due to availability. There's no risks, just time.
While there may be no additional risk, there is another penalty to pruchasing from the black market: prices. Sometimes they can be lower, but often times they can and will be higher than normal.
Other than that, I agree with you.
I have one character [Kovu] that has almost a first name relationship with his fixer. He usually has no problems with her.
1] When I get the call for a meet I giver her a ring and tell her I might be needing some gear and will give her more details later. [This will get everything started and may knock off an hour or so for basic stuff]
2] I usually call her after the meet with a parliamentary list of they type of gear we need. [This gives up another hour or two for her to locate what we are looking for]
3] When we meet with her, we usually have a very detailed list of what we need. [If she can not get what we want we ask if she has anything else that could work]
3] If we need specialized gear, we are willing to spend the cash to get it. [
greases the wheels real well.]
4] We Tip if she get our stuff together quickly. [This can increase loyalty, she has in the past given me the wrong ammo as a clue that she was forced to set us up]
5] If she has a job for us and we are not to busy with a current job, we take it, sometimes for cheaper than we would do it normally. [This also increases loyalty]
6] After the mission, we meet up again to sell off anything we happen to pick up and we don’t haggle to much, we have even given here unwanted stuff we did not want. We also tell here when the item is “Hot”. [Once more Increases Loyalty]
7] Kovu also buys a new barrel for every weapon he has fired, the old barrels are either sold to her or end up in the bay and he has convinced most of the team to do the same. [The GM now has here carry an ammo box with all of “Barrels” in it so it is always available.]
8] If we found that we were lacking in any special gear for this mission, we pick it up for the next time. [I once took me almost took me 3 months to get an item, but it was worth it, I love my Full Armor for those “Special Jobs”
]
1] When I get the call for a meet I giver her a ring and tell her I might be needing some gear and will give her more details later. [This will get everything started and may knock off an hour or so for basic stuff]
2] I usually call her after the meet with a parliamentary list of they type of gear we need. [This gives up another hour or two for her to locate what we are looking for]
3] When we meet with her, we usually have a very detailed list of what we need. [If she can not get what we want we ask if she has anything else that could work]
3] If we need specialized gear, we are willing to spend the cash to get it. [
greases the wheels real well.]4] We Tip if she get our stuff together quickly. [This can increase loyalty, she has in the past given me the wrong ammo as a clue that she was forced to set us up]
5] If she has a job for us and we are not to busy with a current job, we take it, sometimes for cheaper than we would do it normally. [This also increases loyalty]
6] After the mission, we meet up again to sell off anything we happen to pick up and we don’t haggle to much, we have even given here unwanted stuff we did not want. We also tell here when the item is “Hot”. [Once more Increases Loyalty]
7] Kovu also buys a new barrel for every weapon he has fired, the old barrels are either sold to her or end up in the bay and he has convinced most of the team to do the same. [The GM now has here carry an ammo box with all of “Barrels” in it so it is always available.]
8] If we found that we were lacking in any special gear for this mission, we pick it up for the next time. [I once took me almost took me 3 months to get an item, but it was worth it, I love my Full Armor for those “Special Jobs”
]QUOTE (D2F @ Dec 30 2009, 10:24 AM)
While there may be no additional risk, there is another penalty to pruchasing from the black market: prices. Sometimes they can be lower, but often times they can and will be higher than normal.
Those are all variable factors subject to a GM's whim and subject on a product by product basis rather than the market as a whole. I would say that most black market sales fall within +/-20% and a majority fall within +/-10% of book value. On the whole, the pricing between the black market and legal channels is probably not that far from different, maybe +2-4% for the black market. That is a paltry pittance compared to the risks of running an ID check.
As I said, I'm talking about the market as a whole. The less likely the good is to be purchased (read vehicles) the more likely it will yield a higher than book value price, but the vast volume of products sold (guns & ammunition) will likely track near or under book value dragging down the influence of the low volume high priced goods.
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Dec 30 2009, 03:55 PM)
As I said, I'm talking about the market as a whole. The less likely the good is to be purchased (read vehicles) the more likely it will yield a higher than book value price, but the vast volume of products sold (guns & ammunition) will likely track near or under book value dragging down the influence of the low volume high priced goods.
And as I said, other than that minor difference, I agree with you =)
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