A spirit that possesses a vehicle can "drive" it by turning its wheels. Do you think it can make a drone fly by turning its rotors?

And how do you think the signature of a possessed vehicle is affected? The vehicle doesn't have a motor running, but it is possessed by a spirit.

What's the minimum horse power needed to move the vehicles and can the spirit's strength match?

I can't answer that question exactly, but that's a good way to look at it. General horsepower.

I keep looking through the book, at all this possession stuff, and coming up with more questions. When a spirit possesses a device, does that preclude a person (or program) from operating that device? Is there a test for control?

Does a spirit's type have any bearing on what it can do, while possessing? Will I burn if possessed by a fire spirit? Or have a flaming aura? Can a plant spirit possess a plasteel golem, and engulf someone with its thorny vines? Can my '58 Plymouth Fury give a paralyzing howl (great form beast)? Noxious breath? Venom?

yes, a possessed drone can fly (if the regular drone could fly), provided it's a physical mechanism (something like maglev, i would be inclined to say no if it's controlled electrically, but yes if it was controlled by physically changing the position of magnets or something like that). also, signature (assuming you mean the rating used in sensor tests) would remain the same.


the spirit controls the device's physical elements totally. electrical elements could be controlled by someone else however, and the spirit would not be able to prevent it (for example; a spirit could point a camera at a given location, but could not make it record. a person could control whether the camera records or not from the matrix, but if the camera was possessed or in a drone that is possessed, could not aim the camera anywhere)


a fire spirit possessing a vessel (any vessel) will have the same powers as the fire spirit. as i recall, that automatically includes energy aura, so yes you will have a flaming aura most likely (although if you're using fire spirits to represent, say, desert spirits, it could be a sand aura or something like that). you will burn in the context that you will make other things burn, but not in the context of you yourself taking fire damage (though you will almost certainly appear to be on fire or whatever other energy aura). in the event that you are possessed by a spirit that does not have an energy aura, it will still likely be visible that you are possessed, or at least that you aren't an ordinary person. only spirits with realistic form can conceal themselves as being normal people/critters/objects/etc. a plant spirit can possess a plasteel golem, which will likely appear to grow all kinds of plants out of itself. it can engulf someone with it's thorny vines. and yes, your '58 plymouth fury can give a paralyzing howl, noxious breath, or inflict venom if it has those powers. they will likely be adapted somewhat to the nature of the beast (sorry, couldn't resist the pun), so the paralyzing howl may be screeching tires or the engine revving powerfully. the noxious breath may be represented as fumes from the tailpipe or engine. the venom would be... err... well, that's pretty much dependant on the spirit modifying the appearance of the vehicle. but somehow-or-other, it would be usable, and quite likely would have some form of physical manifestation to represent it.

now, that being said... in general, while any given possession spirit can possess danged near anything, that doesn't mean the plant spirit will *like* possessing a plasteel homunculus. if you consistently force your spirits to inhabit vessels they don't like (forcing a fire spirit to possess an ice sculpture, for example), you may find your spirits subtly taking petty forms of vengeance on you (such as taking it literally when you make a comment, performing a service when you sarcastically say something and counting it as a service, etc...) though unless you're being a major douche about it i don't see spirit bane or spirits spending edge to resist binding or anything (i mean, obviously, if you get kicks out of making fire spirits possess sunken ocean liners, that's another thing, but if you're just asking a plant spirit to inhabit a convenient rag doll instead of supplying it with that nice wicker homunculus that it wants, you're not likely to have any major problems. note that only ally spirits should be willing to possess dikoted ares viper silverguns (if you don't get that last bit, don't worry... it's nothing important)

Thanks for the detailed and creative response, Jaid!

Out of curiosity, is it possible to turn Energy Aura off if you want to go incognito?

Yes, but it would probably cost a service.

As an addendum to Jaid's piece, electronics/electrics aren't necessarily an impediment for spirits. For vehicles with internal combustion engines, once the spirit physically cranks the drive shaft and pistons a few times, the automatic electrics take over and the engine will run on its own. Fuel can be controlled by manipulating the gas pedal physically. Turn signals can be operated with the signal lever. Etc.

Thanks for the quick reply.

Where (if anyplace) is it spelled out that you can turn off critter powers with "Action: Auto" and "Duration: Always"? It seems eminently reasonable, but I can't find text supporting that.

It isn't 'written', but my GM and I worked this out for my possession mage, who didn't want to set fire to his teammates and their vehicles. Let me rephrase. If it is doable in your game, then it should cost a service for the spirit to turn it off. You could also try Cold Aura, which at least wouldn't burn the things you sit on.

As an aside, Energy Aura makes a great insect repellent! If you can work a good argument, you may convince your GM that Energy Aura of the appropriate type can affect the immediate environment around the possessed vessel. So, for example, in a hot jungle, a Cold Aura may keep you a bit cooler, as the air immediately around you is continually being cooled. This probably would work better if you stood still.

Thanks. I was hoping for it to actually be in the book, but that's good advice.



The spirits Force is added to some of the vehicle's Physical ratings. None of its Physical ratings are reduced, and the vehicle can move itself, so the spirit must necessarily have enough strength to move the vehicle.

In earlier editions, a spirit in astral space could be spotted on the physical plane. There was a perception test. You could go with that, to spot a possessing spirit. The bigger the spirit, the lower the threshold.

you could use that, but as it stands, spirits are immediately obvious for what they are, regardless of their force. it's not a completely bad houserule, but it also doesn't need to be put in at all; there isn't a "problem" with the rule that spirits are always obvious as being spirits unless they have a specific power, at least not a problem in the general sense; i suppose it could be a problem for a given specific gaming group with arbitrary expectations that a possession spirit should somehow be less immediately obvious than a manifested spirit.

That's one heck of a horn.

You mean the paralyzing horn? That is blown when the victim is in the middle of the street?

Jaid, I just found page 95 of Street Magic, which says, "Spirits that are possessing a vessel are harder to spot, though powerful spirits tend to be quite noticeable. To notice a spirit possessing a vessel, an observer must make a perception test, and beat threshold of 6 minus the spirit's force."

<ponders having an ally spirit with the Fly ability possess a heavy pistol>




-karma

One of the limitations of Possession is that the vessel's capabilities (or limitations) supersede in most cases. If the vessel can't fly (wings or whatever) then the possessing spirit's Flight capability is wasted. So a pistol could not be made to fly, or move on its own in any fashion, for that matter. It could still fire, though.

Now, if the spirit had the Levitate spell, then it could make the pistol fly, and then the Flight capability would allow it to move the vessel at a faster rate. Same with the Movement critter power.

hmmmm... odd. every example they use in the digital grimoire (and in other places iirc, when i checked) makes it *really* obvious that it's spirit-possessed in the description of what happens. i guess someone either didn't remember or didn't agree with that rule...

regardless, if it had the energy aura power, it would still be quite obvious. apparently, it wouldn't be obvious that it was a spirit if it's low-force, but it would be really obvious that it was on fire, dripping acid, crackling with electricity, emanating a wave of frost, or whatever.

More questions...

Can I order a spirit that is possessing a car, to let me get in and drive the car? Under the car's power? With the car+spirit's attributes?

Are there limits on the size of object that can be possessed? Should there be? Can a F3 task spirit move a semi?

Would a spirit firing an LMG mounted on a drone that it's possessing, require the heavy weapons skill, or gunnery? I say HW, because the gun is part of it, not mounted to a vehicle other than itself.

Fortunately, this can be avoided if the spirit has the Realistic Form power.

Yes you could drive the car... also note the car would have it's armor increased by +force, it's body, etc. It explicitly says what the spirit modifies in the description. You could have the car possessed simply to it's toughness increase (provided you can get the hits... or have the spirit possess it and augment it with it's movement power).

Object resistance here... the force3 is very unlikely to get the 5 hits necessary to possess the semi.

No, gunnery. Even a RIGGER (who 'becomes' the drone)... uses gunnery. Even passneger using a pintle mounted HMG in the back of a pickup would use gunnery and not his heavy weapons skill. ALL vehicle mounted weapons use gunnery... (which interestingly is a vehicle skill... not a combat skill... so it's not on task or guardian spirits list of combat or technical skills). EG: a spirit will always be defaulting on this roll... (which make ssense, it can't use the smartgun or other sensors which the gunnery autosofts use for targeting such as rangefinders, camera sights... etc.). IIRC: for a vehicle that means you're defaulting on the vehicles handling score.


Emy:
True, however realistic form isn't common. Only specially crafted allies, free spirits, and toxics have the realistic form power. Generally the possessed item exhibiting some kind of shamanic mask is a good way to do it.

Hehe... reading this did anyone else think of Futurama and 'Werecar, *honk* *honk*' when paralyzing howl or fear power on the car came up :).

Sure, but that's irrelevant. It's also not going to get the ten hits needed to possess an Aztech Crawler.


I'm not convinced. A tripod-mounted HMG? Gunnery or weapon skill? A plasteel golem with a pistol duct taped to the end of its arm? A tripod mounted LMG stuck on a plasteel golem? A tripod mounted LMG stuck on an armored wagon?

Good catch about Gunnery not being a combat skill. Good thing I can give my spirit of man Analyze Device. Too bad he gets a sustaining penalty...


Sorry. Unfamiliar.

And just in case anybody's wondering... yes, I'm aware that all these things I'm talking about, are nearly impossible. A force 6 spirit is not going to get ten hits on its possession test.

I can still address that...

Tripod... would use heavy weapons. (technically the tripod is an attachment to the weapon... and you're possessing the weapon... so no reason the spirit couldn't use the mechanical T&E mechanism).

Smart firing platform (which is just a tripod with drone addiitions, allowing either A. remote control, or B. autonomous operation). Heavy weapons if being manually fired... gunnery if firing it as a drone remotely. Though again, spirit would have no access to smartgun functionality (which the SFP requires for guns mounted in it). (see edit... this now strikes me as incorrect).

Edit: actually rethink here... technically a SFP turns the relationship around... a SFP is an immobile drone w/ a reinforced weapons mount (it can mount HMG's and the like)... In which case, the gun is in the weapons mount... so if the gun is possessed it couldn't move the mount. But if the mount was possessed, it could move and use the gun the same as a possessed drone could use a gun in it's mount... but it would do so as a drone and use Gunnery.


Again, IF it was mounted on a pickup truck or other vehicle on a pintle mount... then it switches to gunnery for all uses. But it must be permanently mounted as a weapons mount. You can't just duct tape a weapon on. (well you could... then have the spirit possess the gun, but not the vehicle... but that's a different can of worms).


Duct taping anything to the golem or vehicle DOESN"T make it part of it... for example one trick I like is outfitting a vehicle w/ a drone rack. Then sticking a smart firing platform in the drone rack... (instant weapons mount which I can quickly remove and avoid problems w/ the fuzz). However, even if I possessed the 'carrier' vehicle.. the drones in the mounts (even though attached) would not be possessed (and the spirit would be unable to use them).


On the other hand, if you had a guardian spirit inhabit a golem, I would see zero issues with it picking up and using a normal gun especially if it had the proper skill from it's power and the golem had functional hands. (granted no smartlink or other such bonuses). This would be no different whatsoever from a materialized guardian being handed an assault rifle and using it.

Object Resistance doesn't apply to critter powers, right? Except the ones that specifically mention it, like Possession?

Possession power specifically says to roll double the spirit's force against a threshold of the object resistance.

Hmm. I'm glad you asked that. It made me reread it. I thought it was double the object resistance. It is possible for a F6 spirit to roll five hits on a possession test. Still kind of a long shot, though.

I agree with you about a golem needing proper hands to fire a gun. But with spirits possessing drones, I see the gun as being part of the possessed object, and therefore not mounted in a vehicle. It's part of the spirit, just like its wheels. But now that I think about it, that shouldn't matter. The only true parallel skill for people is the implanted cyber-weapon skill.

Well the spirit can always use edge or try again until it works. The service is to possess the object not try to possess the object.

A spirit's edge is not a player's edge. Only GM's should be deciding when a spirit does or does not use edge. (generally I'd say a spirit would only do this when it feels it's 'life' is on the line... and then only for defensive tests).

Abusive mage should occasionally (not always) have spirits using edge to resist the caster.


Also remember that spirits don't get to make repeated tests to possess something in a short time frame. If their first attempt fails, generally they won't do another check (in combat at least, as it takes too long). Though in this case, generally you would use a more generalized order... possess one of the gaurds. (make one check against each one, until one fails... even if you don't get any of them, it still eats up a service. (possession is a little wierd since the act of possessing is technically also an attack power on par w/ the mental manipulation attack spells). IIRC, timeframe is a day.

This is one reason having prepared vessels helps a lot.



Wind:
Incorrect... guns in weapons mounts are not fixed. They're not special in any way (though I often wish they were). There's no difference between an ares alpha in the street sams hands, and in the weapon mount. The gun could be removed from the mount and used by another character in a reasonable period of time.

Think of it this way... a vehicular weapon mount is more like specialized vehicle hands/arms which can only hold and use a weapon. What you're saying, is if the spirit possesses the 18wheeler, it also posseses the cargo in the back, even though it's only held and not technically part of the truck.

The spirit will follow the orders to the best of its abilities. If it can only succeed at the task with edge, it will have to spend it.

This, of course, is the risk a mage runs if he forces spirits to possess unsuitable vessels or do tasks beyond their abilities.


Possession is a complex action and only if the spirit is banished after successfully possessing the vessel he cannot possess this vessel until the next sunrise/set. Unsuccessful attempts have no time limit.

Wow, I'm off my mark today... you're right on the possession timer. Note to self... don't post while half asleep... I had those two paragraphs combined into one in my head for some reason. Banishing ejects w/ timer, possessing goes until it succeeds.


However, I strongly disagree on the use of edge. A spirit will use it's skills, but it WON"T spend it's limited edge. A player should never have control of anythings edge but his own. This is a taskmaster/slave relationship... not a partnership. A spirit is an NPC which can be quite grudging about doing anything it's ordered to do. (comedy gold is when I glitched a summoning check on a spirit... it was hilarious it'd do what I told it to, but it would twist the words like a wish spell... it would verbally disabuse me constantly. Try it out sometime, give your spirits some character of their own).

If you look at primary reasons people have problems w/ mages and spirits and the like. And players spending spirits edge as if it were free candy is a PRIMARY reason mages take so much flak. Yet nowhere in the rules does it state this is to be done.

From Street Magic, page 101:
(emphasis mine)

Good call, Peter.

Spirits can, technically, use edge on possession tests. Edge for a reroll is not for a second attempt.

>>>generally I'd say a spirit would only do this when it feels it's 'life' is on the line... and then only for defensive tests

Generally, I agree with that. But would a spirit spend edge if there was no other way to complete its assigned task? Or would it be perfectly happy staying in nice, warm astral space? "Sorry, boss. No can do. Uh, I'm gonna hang out here in astral space until an idea hits me. Don't worry about it. I'll think of something."

On a tangent, what orders do you give to the spirit? Do you order it to possess a vessel (and stay there all day), and then assign it tasks? Or do you tell it to "kill that guy using this vessel"?

Okay, so you're of the opinion that weapons are separate from the vehicles. Simply bolting something to the structure, does not make it part of that structure. They can use the weapon mount (which is part of the vehicle) to aim the weapon, but they can't pull the trigger, because they don't possess the weapon itself.

You misunderstand... for turreted weapons like guns. I don't see an issue. Provided the gun hasn't had a trigger removal mod.

Remember, a weapon mount is not limited to smartlinked weapons... (you can stuff a cheapo special AK-97 in the mount). So the mount has some mechanical means to pull a trigger.


Just the spirit can't electronically fire or target weapons. It can point them at things... and a spirit with access to a vertical launch missile system would be hopeless... it couldn't target and fire the missiles. (the missiles are programmed, so that they fire up vertically then turn towards their targets).

How 'bout an ally spirit inhabiting a vehicle? When inhabitation happens to a person, the spirit gains the ability to access the cyberware of the person as well as being able to use a data jack. If it inhabited a vehicle, would it be able to electronically target?

Hmmmm... Christine, with a .50 cal.

Only if the vehicle paid for the guns with essence.

Then you mean a fully integrated weapon, like in a turret, but not a simple pintle mount? There must be a mechanism for aiming the gun (and for firing it). That makes sense.

No, inhabitation allows it to access DNI interfaces it doesn't allow it to use any computer system w/o it's living host. (EG: it can use the meat to interface w/ the cyberware. So where a normal possessing spirit would get no benefit from MoveByWire... an inhabitation grade one would get the full effects through it's DNI interface).

The vehicle has no meat for the spirit to interface through.

you keep talking like that, you're going to start giving people ideas

I disagree. In the case of an inhabited vehicle, the vehicle is the meat. Accessing a built-in comlink/targeting computer/what-have-you is equivalent to DNI.

The entire point of the rule is that spirits CANNOT interface w/ technology, EXCEPT through DNI and stolen memories and biological systems.

Stop and think... you have something which is already an alien intelligence... an insect spirit, shedim... (remember inhabitation power is abnormal and isn't found on a PC's spirits). You're saying that w/ no experience or ability to even read a computer screen, it's going to have the radar and other systems mastered?

Implanted cyberware is equipped w/ DNI. Normal equipment is not. A datajack is literally the interface between the DNI and the electronic world). A vehicle w/ a fiber port doesn't have DNI, it has an interface which plugs into the datajack.


Jaid: yeah it's called an inhabited Rigger... (in which case it's the rigger and not the vehicle which is possessed...).

You could always go whole hog and have both the rigger AND the vehicle possessed using two spirits.


Maybe this is just me, but I find one of the more interesting aspects of shadowrun the whole incomparibility between technology and magic. And the conflicts it sparks.

well, there are 2 other possibilities: 1) cyborg (which would probably be a crudload cheaper than an actual cyborg, because the spirit could keep it alive and constantly aware instead of needing that expensive maintenance program) and 2) biodrones (or biodrone cyborgs) that have simply been installed into a vehicle (sure, all the ecoterrorists will be really mad at you, but it could still potentially work...

Technically a cyborg is a rigger. Hence the name jarhead.... yeah go ahead and inhabit the brain in a jar... you control the drone through the DNI... but again the drone itself is not possessed.

The CCU is simply a life support system and DNI for the brain in a jar.

Perhaps your spirits CANNOT interface w/technology, but I follow the totem of Deception. And my spirits blend in with society by inhabiting themselves into technology. They have a mutable form. One looks just like the -lets say- vehicle that they inhabit, and the other is humanoid. This hybrid form lets them operate as a perhaps a jet or manipulate as a man. Indeed their deception is so perfect that they are the icons of my totem. They are technology. They could hack the national defense firewall in less than seven seconds. They can learn any of Earth's languages from the world wide web. Indeed, my Deception icons are more than meets the eye.

i'm not even sure what you are talking about here, but if it's your own personal house rules, i'm sure that's very nice, but it really doesn't apply to any game other than your own.

Because I was too subtle: You can call my Deception icons "Decepticons" for short.