I've personally never encountered anyone who has ever played a Native American character.

I personally think that the Native American Nations were Shadowrun's worst idea. You've got a bunch of countries where a very small minority rules over a much larger population that has no say in government due to their ethnic background. I don't care how much magical mojo you have on your side, your country is still in store for major recurrent uprisings. Even a 6th level initiate can't stop 10,000 guys armed with pistols and knives.

NANers? Only once, but it was a very interesting adventure....

[edit]: oh, and there was an extensive conversation about this topic in this thread last week.

I've played in a group where we were all from one of the NAN. It was fun. Basically I played a cybered up Sioux who hated everyone who wasn't native American and Crow.

As far as the minority rule over an ethnic majority, seems this has been happening throughout history. Not out of place in a dystopian setting.

one of my players plays one every time.

And every time it ends in a blood bath.

*sigh*

Yes, I like to play characters that are from where I currently live, which means I like to play a NAN character. But lets make something very clear here, not all NAN are alike, especially in disposition towards those who are not of a stereotype any more (and especially less) than how accepted meta-humanity is of each other.

There is more I would say but I feel like I have been over it ad naseum in other threads. Say what you will but I was at least a good part attracted to Shadowrun because of the changes in the world, especially the NAN.

Yeah, that is about all I can put down without blowing my stack at perceived wrongs... yeah...

Well then its definitely not out of place. (This is Shadowrun after all).

In my opinion, the aforementioned blood bath should have happened some time ago, like in the 2030s.

I play a black troll shaman who is from Montana. In Seattle they don't like me because I'm from another country, in the NAN they don't like me because I'm not Native American. Quite fun the play.

Simple explanation?
The Great Ghost Dance convinced the world that Mother Nature herself sided with the NAN, and therefore to fight the NAN is to fight the Earth.

To put it another way, potential to cause Supervolcanic eruption = can end all life as we know it = don't fuck with the NAN.

Complex explanation?
Read the NAN Fading thread. It is really long and in depth.

I like the whole "we're afraid of the NAN" feel I get. Never read the stuff about the Great Ghost Dance.

Those mofos can cause volcanoes to explode! Sure, not all that useful in tactical engagements, but effectively they had all the major population centers in Washington hostage (I'm not sure if Oregon was also smooth, and built in the direct path of lahar routes).

I didn't even think of the super volcano/end of world scenario.

I have (at Least) two NAN Chars 1 female Ork Ki-Ad (Serious Gun Bunny), 1 Troll Wrestler
also 1 Innuit Troll Bountyhunter and one travelling Hoboe/ Go Ganger(but they're NPC for new Players at Conventions)
So Yes ,I got some

HeyaHeyaHeya
Medicineman

At my table, the character Jenny Jump is a "Pinkskin" originally from the Pueblo Corporate Council (well, technically, the area she was from was in the Ute Nation in Northern Arizona at the time she left). Basically, she grew up in a Northern Arizona hippie commune (if it could be called such by the 2050s) before Emerging (rather than Awakening like most of her relatives) and leaving for greener pastures, first for Los Angeles and then Seattle. (The player at my table started out with essentially the back story of Courtney Love, but with a slightly more serious outlook, a different appearance, a terrible singing voice, and a different addiction than opiates.)

My current Missions runner is a Sioux weapons guy/face.
Comes from a family of runners.

Being the youngest of 7 kids, he's seen a wide array of attitudes - from his sister's near-xenophobia to having his brother turn his back on his heritage & become a rock-n-roll sellout.
He ended up somewhere in between - acknowledging his heritage while embracing what other cultures have to offer.
Sometimes that doesn't work out too well, but its all part of the learning experience.

I've always run the NAN more like a cultural thing than a blood thing. There's racial bias, it's easier to get along if you can prove ancestry, but the key part of why the NAN is as strong as it is is the culture shift it caused. Here they were in concentration camps, put there by the US government. They used their connection to the Earth and the old ways of their culture and were able to reclaim the land that was taken from them long ago. Then the leaders of that movement said that anyone who wished to stay on those lands could, but they would have to live by their way. The same ways that just broke one of the worlds most powerful nations for crimes against it's own people. Sign me up.

On that note I usually have at least one fake ID registered in a NAN country, PPC being a favorite. Salish is good too for border crossing fun, just use separate crossings and make sure your alter ego is on the side of the fence they are supposed to be on.

I once had a player who had close ties to the Athabascan council. He thought it would be cool to be the son of a chief, I thought it would be cool to have the party go up north for some Sixth world political campaigning. At night, with knives.

Sure. I played a NAN Fox Shaman. Ethnicity isn't really all that important to me, but they play it up in SR, so I play it up in SR.

My Main-Troll is from the NAN.
Born there. Goblinized into a Troll And his parents got scared.
Got sent to Relatives in Seattle's Bad-Air. That's true.
Let me tell you how he became the Prince of the Turn-Court Belle-Vue!
*runs*

Not necessarily true.

The Salish-Sidhe Council has accepted several "Pinkskin" tribes, and the Pueblo Corporate Council allows a person to "buy" citizenship at market value, regardless of their ethnic background. The Ute Nation granted soverign status to the Mormons and gave them Salt Lake City as their "reservation".

Also, remember that Anglos were "kicked out". By the 2050's, the NAN states ARE Majority governed nations.

I toyed with the idea of playing a once-devout Mormon who was kicked out of the SLC Reserve for being Awakened

I Did indeed play a Native American Shadowrunner in both 1st and 2nd Edition... I was even considering doing so in 4th, unfortunately, our current campaign is in Asia... Maybe if we ever come back to the North American Continent, I will get to do so again...

Keep the Faith

I think what most people forget when they go "NAN shouldn't exist." is that they have the magical equivalent of an entire arsenal of nukes in the form of the great ghost dance. It's a simple rule of modern engagement: You don't attack countries that can end the world (Or at least kill a couple billion people) when they want.

You know, my take on SLC is that the Mormon's are necessarily anti-Awakened, its just that the Mana Ebb is so freakin' high that no one wants to be Awakened in SLC.

RE: The NAN

Answer: Its stupid hippy bulldrek that did nothing for the setting for many many years but isolate Seattle and it's environs. To work on a conceptual standpoint at the level it was represented every single ghost dancer hadto be a super magic badass and everyone else needed to be eating paint chips. 1 percent of the population subverting others through ethnic cleansing, cultural override and super weapons is nazis with feathers but somehow justified because they were oppressed.


Now that I've got that bit out of my system I have a heavily cybered Lakota (Sioux) that I'm enjoying his perceptions colored by his pride in his heritage and his lack of ability with magic

Maybe they had a few million beast nature and ancestor spirits on their side, haunting the pinkskins, appearing in every congressman's general's and the president's bedroom at night telling them to back off or they were going to eat them and their families.

I think its great to have different themes that you can play with within the setting. To me the rise of the NAN was another vehicle to illustrate the rise of an immense and ancient power: magic.

I remember a lot of my friends who played Cyberpunk that could not accept Shadowrun. To me the story of Shadowrun is the awakening of ancient wisdom during the age of technological singularity. I loved it, still do. How do you illustrate the mixture of ancient and future in North America? The ancient cultures of the Americas are the American Indians.

Sure the Great Ghost Dance was a big threat right after the awakening, but by 2070 the UCAS probably has a much higher awakened population than all the NANs put together. Heck, if the UCAS, CAS, California Free State, and Quebec teamed up they probably have more Awakened than the NANs have Native Americans.

More importantly, a great ghost dance takes time to organize. The first one worked because the NANs had time to prepare before they delivered their ultimatum. There is now way an act of ritual magic on that scale could be organized between "Nuclear Launch Detected" and Cheyenne, for example, no longer existing.

Besides, the threat of summoning up volcanoes isn't much use against people who already live in your own country. You'd be shooting yourself in the foot in a very major way. A volcanoes not going to do you much good when half the "Pinkskins" in Albuquerque have surrounded your government compound in Santa Fe with pitchforks and torches.

ok, every time this subject comes up I write a scathing, inflammatory rant and then never post it because i don't care to bring real world crap into a role playing discussion. But I really need to state my view on this because its driving me nuts. So here goes and if I piss anyone off, well just ignore me and go on with the discussion as if I were never here.

Firstly, I have to agree that it is unlikely that the NAN would be as big as it is in shadowrun. However, why someone would dismiss the whole concept confuses me. I can't understand how the idea of a self governing native population is thought to be incredibly unlikely to some posters.

As an NDN, I find it somewhat insulting when someone basically says" Your culture hasn't the ability to take back what was stolen from you and build a somewhat better future." The arguments alway end up relying on population figures and other statistics to back up the basic premise, but the underlying theme is that we are incapable of functioning as one people. I find that sentiment condensending and somewhat racist.

Its been mentioned that conditions on the Rez in most places suck.I can't argue with that. after you have striped a people of all cultural identity and then denied them even the slight chance to of "fitting in " in your society, what the hell do you expect? 200 years of being kicked in the teeth every time you pick your head up out of the dirt does that to a people. Keep them drugged, spiritually empty, and poor and they are easier to control. Feed their young the messege that they are just lazy drunk injuns and don't have a chance in hell of becoming anything else and they start believing it. Add in a big helping of corruption assisted by your cultures greed and selfishness to make sure no positive progress takes root and you are good to go.

Now, just for shits and giggles. lets say that suddenly something happens. Say a spark of hope apears and catches on. A spark that the oppressor ignores because" it can't happen". Like a rain in the desert, things are going to soak it up and bloom like crazy. Its been proposed that magic is strengthened by the will. Give a dying man a chance at a cure and you will be amazed at the strength of will he can muster to get to it. Give a People a chance for freedom anid they can move mountains.(heh)

Another misconception is that NDN's aren't well armed. Omae, If the NDN's in SR are as well armed as us today, the UCAS army is in for a big suprise. We remember Wounded Knee. Ya ever wonder why there aren't a lot of Gun laws on the Rez? (and if they are why they are largely ignored?) I've seen ordinance that would make Blackwater ( or what ever they call themselves now) drool. Spirits aren't the only thing that can knock a chopper out of the air...(grin)

So,basicly. if you don't want to use NAN in your game. hey, thats your biz, Chummer. But please don't try to justify it by insinuating that "it couldn't happen in RL." Cause in RL, you may be suprised at what a bunch of savages may be able to accomplish in the future. All we need is a spark....



Walk in Beauty,
kanis

kudos to Kanis

to answer the original post,
yes, my main npc (named same as my tag on here)is a product of mixed parenting, his father being a native of the Salish Sidhe, mother being an
anglo elf.
I have had several native npc's through my several years of GM'ing SR, and i believe my brother has played a native character as well at some point.
Besides that, my gaming table represents all races/ethnic groups quite nicely in game.

I know this thread is a bit deja vu, but I thought I'd weight in to add that I've been running it much like otakusensei seems to be, working from the assumption of a racially/demographically mixed, but culturally assimilated/integrated and supportive NAN population. A great many citizens have few or very iffy blood ties to the relevant Native cultures, but nonetheless self-identify as part of the modern incarnations of those cultures. I realize that conflicts with some of the early canon, but I have some of the same logical issues with that canon that others in this thread who don't like the NAN are bringing up.

I do think it's a damn cool idea, but it's one that needs some thematic clarity in its execution. Regardless of the likelihood of any of it happening, if you assume it's just blood natives kicking everybody else out or ruling a conquered population, then that's as much a crime as anything's been, and I want the NAN to be an empowerment thing, and a point of hope, if you'll pardon the phrase, in an otherwise grim setting, a reminder that when the common man gets his shit together, the whole world shakes.

And I also want to simultaneously avoid the "Magical Indian" and "Noble Savage" stereotypes, and that's admittedly pretty hard. I've tried to do that by assuming that the bulk of the magicians trained in the early days were trained under Native tutelage and supported the rebellion, regardless of their own ethnicity; the shamanic elements are not restricted to blood natives. What history I've given out to my players (none of whom were previously terribly familiar with the canon version) has emphasized the mass Awakened elements of the revolution; for instance, a technomancer they crossed into Rapid City in Sioux country to extract was a black woman with Creek tribal affiliation named Michelle Stands-in-Clouds, and digging through her files during the legwork phase, I mentioned that the name originated with her Atlanta grandmother standing up to the tear gas in protests before the heavy fighting started.

I also tried to show the Sioux Nation on that run as still a modern place, even if it has sort of a New Old West feel. The NAN cultures aren't exactly the same as their pre-Indian Wars counterparts because a culture is a living thing, and you can't keep one pressed under glass and expect it to be healthy. They're not running around hunting buffaloes on horseback. There are for sure buffalos, but they're on ranches. The Cherokee that settled in the Rapid City area still are heavily involved in agriculture, but in 2070 it's vertical agriculture in a set of Shiawase-funded crop arcologies and the like. You get the idea.

I also don't want it to be Avatar, where it's still Whitey that has to save the day for the indigenous people, cause that's still a sort of superiority bullshit. I think this is maybe the hardest pitfall to avoid. I've tried my best to make clear that the Native Americans were still the core of the SAIM rebel movement, even if they didn't supply the mass of the boots on the ground. It's the names like Howling Coyote that get bandied around as founding fathers. I think this is maybe the hardest pitfall to avoid, because it's fairly subtle. But I'm trying.

My point is, I don't feel like we should abandon the idea simply because it wasn't executed well early on. It's got promise, I think. Whose game is this, anyways? I don't have to be married to fluff from when I was a preschooler. I'm honestly only really impressed with the fluff I've seen from Catalyst. In before edition wars... The point is, I think the idea of the NAN in the abstract is unique, interesting and valuable well beyond its use in isolating Seattle (we don't even run in Seattle, we run in Minneapolis).

As far as actual Native characters, we have one amongst the PCs I GM for, a full-blood Ojibwe dwarf mercenary named Jukebox from "up north", modern NW Ontario. I kind of tend to imagine her as an Ojibwe version of Revy from Black Lagoon, if that tells you anything about the character. She's easily the most Pink Mohawk character in the current campaign, and has kind of a "no one owns me" natural outlaw vibe. The player's a significant part Ojibwe herself, from northern Minnesota, so it's not entirely an alien culture for her, but she said she wanted to play something other than a "cookie-cutter Ojibwe", and I think she's definitely done that. Much of the drama comes from the fact that she has a sister in Minneapolis' Knight Errant, and Jukebox is definitely the black sheep of the family. Sometimes they help each other, but there's issues from being on the opposite sides of the law.

Interestingly, Jukebox hit it off right away with the NPC Zipper from "On the Run". So far Zipper's backstory I've got elucidated a bit more; grew up in a Cherokee farming arcology to a Japanese father and Cherokee mother in Rapid City. Having a dwarf kid didn't do wonders for the father's career, so he got blackballed, and their relationship was always...awkward. Her being a lesbian didn't make her fit in any better.(Hey, they said it in the module that she was, this isn't some wish fulfillment I'm pulling out of my ass. Hell, Jukebox's player's a straight woman) So a lot of her drama has been related to not getting along with them, as well as the fact that she's kind of spinning her wheels getting her life together. And Jukebox is always getting herself in deep shit, and Zipper worries about her.

Another major NPC from the NAN is a t-bird jammer from the northern border named Turtle¸ a Mohawk Warrior Societies guy. He looks less Indian, but has some in him. He's developed less as a character because the PC who has him as a contact never seems to show up.

Anyways, I feel like the NAN characters that have showed up already have some depth to them beyond just being generic Indians.

I'm pretty sure there's still a NANner thread going fairly strong -- it shouldn't be but a page or two back, and last I checked it was at least a dozen pages long -- so the "Should the NAN exist?" sort of stuff might want to go there instead of here.

As far as actual characters go, I made a NAN Elf Rigger/Sammie for SR4, but never really got the chance to play him. He was an asshole, and the first snippet of fiction that jumped him into my head can be found here. He worked as a smuggler going into and out of NAN territory before getting pinched, and thrown onto an Urban Brawl team as part of his punishment (which is where the story kicks up).

EDIT: Here's the other thread. 24 pages, looks like, of plenty of "NAN shouldn't be" versus "NAN should too!" back and forth. Voila.

more on topic...

Stonewall, Cascade ork. left Cascade Home guard cause he couldn't stand the corruption.(and left with with a Bison full of gear) not quite as honorable as he thought himself to be. bad case of ethics caused him to double cross the Triads in HK. last seen trying to make it to Austrailia. Assumed to be KIA

Two-Feathers, pink-skin tribal, washed out of Wildcats training on day 3 due to drug issues, KIA in amzonia by big snake.

Grinner, Navajo dwarf, Coyote shaman, killed by yaks while hitting a brothel. tried to do the melee specialiists job, was Idea man for "the great big hammer "con which resulted in the cult following of the band"Big Hammer" .

@Critias: sorry for the derail. Considered posting in the other threads, but they caught fire before I could post and I figured anything I said would be lost in smoke and flames.(grin)

As i said elsewhere for me the complaint has usually been one of scale more then anything that and tactics, but that's neither here nor there.


You can think their racist all you want however the "one people" you suggest has never existed. Even before the coming of europeans to North America the Native American's wern't united one people living in peace and harmony with the land but a set of seperate and independant tribes (some more then others, there are more similarities amongst those classified as "Sioux" then most other places) who in some cases really didn't get along. If anything these differences were as pronounced if not more so then the differences between their european counterparts. So yes, acting like every single NAN in North America got on fine with everyone else enough that less then a percentage point of the population kicked the crap out of the 99% percent is patently rediculous.


Yes because what's totally keeping the NAn down is completely the whiteman's corruption and entirely his evil. After all everyone knows that there has never been a lazy or corrupt member of the people. If such things exist it's clearly THE MAN'S fault. I wonder if some day we'll reach a point where we'll be a sufficiently intermixed planet where someone can't play the racial opression card, probly not but it's a nice thought. We'll either never reach that point, or we'll just find a new card.


Yep because magic totally works better if the people are dispirited and broken waiting for that pure magic to come back and fill their lives. Magic in shadowrun is driven by will PERIOD. It doesn't matter if that will is focused through the Ghost Dance, Christian Dogma, Jewish Kaballah, or belief in Elvis the undying. You either have the spark or you don't.



Yea hillbillies are well armed everywhere regardless of skin color, your point? The branch dividians had some rediculous firepower by legal/civilian standards it didn't do them a whole hell of a lot of good against some of the cast off military hardware the ATF packs.




......all i'm going to basically respond to this is everyone justifies their bull somehow whether it's the south will rise again morons, the neo-nazi freaks or anyone else with a cause and an axe to grind. It's only frightening when the "justification" is sufficient that what would basically be a racist screed if it was delivered by the aryan brotherhood is "kudos to kanis" because it's been delivered by a wronged party. I mean for example, lets say tommorow the NAN did get established, shouldn't they be able to buy and sell blacks, women, and members of conquered tribes as property? Because that was totally part of their culture you know.

So yea while Kanis obviously very heavily draws on his own personal experiences and beliefs some of which are drawn from his heritage I'm going to point out if your a Ponca or Omaha Indian who got run roughshod over by both the Fed's and other natives that whole united front thing starts to break down.

lol

kudos to Lurker,

mostly because he cites my kudos.

The kudos was placed there because he spoke his mind, much like you did lurker,
not that i 100% agree with what he/she typed.

maybe someday, in this magical utopia where all races are treated equally, a person
can also give kudos without someone passing judgment upon them

I've seen tons, and played a few myself, including my first even SR character, Sliver (a.k.a. Daniel Running Water). In my experiene, all you have to do is pass around the old "Never Deal With a Dragon" novel, and the next round of character creation will overflow with NAN street sammies.

and i also will give kudos to Lurker. I don't expect everyone to agree with my opinions. that way leads to fanaticism.(boy, am I throwing the -isms around or what?)

However, I must say that I didn't call anyone a racist. I said the underlying sentiment was"condescending and somewhat racist."
but again that is all off topic. I would welcome any discussion of the subject in pm or email though as it is a facet of SR that I enjoy( and probably one of the original "wow, This game rocks!!" things that have kept me playing through the years.)

Exactly. I know there are plenty of folks that look at the mention of the NAN and mentally roll right over it. But it's one of those features that pops back up from time to time as something really unique and interesting about the setting. I'm glad it's there and see the NANs as a relatively positive force in the sixth world. Positioned between the old guard nations, their culture of corruption and tradition of misconduct, and the mega-corporations with their ruthless power and global influence there is a burning fire carried in embers from an old source.

That's a romantic view. Up close it's humanity, and humanity is ugly. But it's as good as anything when you need something to believe in. And you've got to believe in something.

That's true. The great ghost dance maybe isn't the greatest deterant for future fights, but unless whatever country is taking on NAN can do so very quickly, NAN would potentially be able to get together the people needed for the dance. And even if they can't, the fact is that NAN is a nation now, and attacking another nation is always a bad idea. Global PR is going to drop like a stone, and while Country A is taking on NAN, Country B might decide to swoop in while A is weakened.

All in all, once NAN exists, it is likely to stay in existence.

QFT

Nations, as a rule, tend to be fairly long-lived entities. Doubly so if they have large swaths of land, plenty of useful resources, and technology (and magic in SR) that isn't woefully lagging behind the global standard. Keep in mind, the NAN don't just have magic very early in game, they also have access to top-notch military tech as well. Sure, they wrecked up a lot of military bases in the uprising, but not everything was destroyed, and most of the infrastructure of the old US remains intact. A week after they take over, they can start rolling out tanks, helos, and fighter jets of their own.

The remaining NAN nations have a strategic advantage against the 3 Anglo and 1 French nation you mentioned: they get along better.

The PCC is an economic and technological powerhouse easily on par with (or exceeding) the UCAS. Not to mention the fact that they have cordial relations with the CAS over their shared enemy of Aztlan.

The Sioux is a militarized nation, much like Israel, with mandatory conscription of all citizens, coupled with high degrees of training and nationalist-derived morale.

The SSC form supply lines to and from both, and have a strategic advantage in being able to hold Seattle hostage (or cause it to declare independence).

Now, I have no doubt that the UCAS military is probably the single most powerful military force in North America, capable of besting any other single nation on the continent in open war... but it doesn't seem like they have the mutual defense pacts in place that the NAN states have. Given the already demonstrated mutual defense pacts, an outside war against one is a war against all... and I don't think that the UCAS has any cause to want to commit to a long, bloody war like that.

On the other hand, there is a growing possibility that the NAN states in North American might break from within. Pueblo might be stretching itself WAY too thin by swallowing up Ute and SoCal (and making a deal with the Horizon Devil in the process), and the SSC owes Sioux big time for its help in dealing with Tsimshian.

Don't forget that the Pueblo Corporate Council is often pointed to as a tech powerhouse on par with Japan, and a military whose equipment is probably more SOTA than the UCAS military.

Did not the Silicone Valleys fall to them?

Nope, Pueblo only seized LA along the coast. My understanding is that Ares mostly controls the Silicon Valley.