Hooray for SM's subtitles.

I was reading through Street Magic and went through the Magical Threats section (I spend a lot of time there). As I was reading, I developed a few questions that I couldn't seem to find an answer to. So, as expected, my newbie self is bringing them to you guys, in hopes that you can assist me. ^-^

There's three main things I'm looking to have answered or commented on, and I think I'll give them their own little sections.

Shadow Spirits
The Energy Drain that these spirits use, can it be applied to Free Spirits as well (PC or not)? Meaning, if a Wraith somehow causes a Free Spirit to commit a random act of violence, will ED steal away some of Free Spirit's Karma? Furthermore, what happens if the subject being drained has no karma to begin with. Is the Energy Drain wasted, do damage only, or just automatically fail?

Insect Magic
Insect Shamans summon various classes of bugs, and act as the focal point of their hive until a Queen or Mother arrives. My question is, a twisted mage or shaman who actively seeks to learn bug wizardry for the purpose of increasing his own power (for whatever reason), does this shaman have to try and invoke a Q/M? I can imagine having a horde of bugs, tied to you and under your control, being a very enticing and powerful asset. I find it hard to imagine that certain insect shamans are willing to give up the kind of power that forming a hive grants.

For example, some random mage becomes a Wasp shaman. He decides that having a network of spirits under his control that he can share senses with, and who obey him completely, is a pretty neat idea and he's not very willing to turn that power over to a bug. Does the mentor spirit/Queen have the ability to keep him from doing this, or can she command the hive to dispose of him since he's not up to completing the hive?

I believe it says insect shamans feel compelled to summon queens and mothers. Would it be reasonable to give the shaman a trait similar to a mentor spirit disadvantage, requiring him to make a test to see if he can resist the urge to summon a Q/M when the time is right? These may be odd questions, but it floods my braaaain.

Lastly for bugs, can Mystic Adepts be used as suitable shamans for a hive?

Toxic Magic
After a lot of searching on DS, most of the questions in this category were answered, but there's still some things I wanna run by you guys.

Toxic Adepts. I don't know if they've been mentioned or asked about before, but I assume they can (or do) exist. If so, what would be likely powers, spells (for MysAdepts), and metamagics for them? I'm addicted to CharGen, and I think a Toxic Adept of some sort would be an interesting thing to try and create.

Now, here's where a lot of people might start to hate me . I'm attempting to make a Toxic Shaman PC using the BP system. I know that a good amount of people might not allow that, but I'm absolutely obsessed with toxic magic and I'm going to do it anyway. I do want to try and balance it out though, and that's what I could use some ideas for. Ol' search function gave me a lot of ideas from old threads ('Specially FrankTrollman's Toxic Traditions), and I'm playing with the idea of making Toxic Magic a 25BP Quality (which includes the Magician quality, so taking a ''Toxic Magician'' quality is essentially the Mage quality, plus 10BP for being Toxic).

So, I may be crazy, and my questions and desires totally ridiculous. Let me know Dumpshock, and thanks for all the help you've already given me.
Sorry for the Force 4 Text Wall.

Quick change. Read Digital Grimoire and decided I'll just use a variant of the Poisoner tradition listed there for the one I made. Maybe switch out Radiation for some form of Task spirit.

No word on whether an bug shaman can decide not to invoke a queen or mother spirit?

I think a bug shaman does not have to summon a queen but his power is limited until he does. Got to figure someone tiwsted enough to follow that path is egotisitical enough to figure he's strong enough to control the queen he summons, not like those other weak will poser fraggers.

Alright, going with that, what ''limits'' would be imposed on the shaman? Just the lack of power an invoked queen can offer, or something else? What would motivate a power-hungry insect shaman to invoke a queen? Anything aside the powerful queen herself?

Losing control over a horde of merges and spirits is quite a risk, once you're seen as useless to the hive. Sure, he can try to bind her with the spirit formula, but if that fails; all'the sudden all those merges and bugs he worked so hard to bring to Earth are pissed and comin' for him.

He can start a real hive is about it, really. No charisma limits.

Wouldn't that only apply to spirits who haven't taken a vessel for themselves yet? Street Magic gave me the impression that once a bug inhabits the prepared vessel, it is no longer bound to the shaman in a traditional way. It owes no services, but does everything the shaman says since he/she is the surrogate or filler for the queen/mother. Thought being, inhabiting (insect) spirits don't count towards the number of bound spirits a shaman can have, so he could have a potentially unlimited number of merges working for him, in addition to whatever spirits he has bound/summoned. I dunno, the more I read the Insect Magic section the more I begin to think that summoning a queen or mother is more of a risk than a benefit.

Of course, that's not counting the insane Awakened who have some irrational thought process, or those who have been seduced and deceived by their mentor bug.

An insect shaman is described as always summoning a queen or mother spirit when the number of insect spirits reaches some "critical mass". Keep in mind that the queen/mother is effectively the insect shaman's mentor spirit.

The critical mass is the charisma limit on the number of bound spirits any mage can have at a given time. Summoning the Queen bypasses that, effectively allowing an unlimited number. Also, based on canon, a Queen may be able to teach further metamagics to a given Insect Shaman as well. Those are two pretty compelling reasons IMHO for a magician to summon a queen.

How would ANY magician react to ANY totem telling him that all he has to do this and he'll learn metamagic and remove the CHA-cap on bound spirits?

- J.

By RAW its not permissible unless your GM says yes and handwaves it.

Failing that, I would go with a twisted mage/shaman rather than a toxic/insect, simply because it would fit in better with a given group. My PCs would waste anyone at the table who became an Insect Shaman based on principle. An insect shaman wouldn't be beyond looking at his fellow team mates as potential vessels.

- J.

Did not see any one answer this part of the post, so here you go...

See page 139 for Twisted Adepts... and for your adepts powers, take such interesting things as a Toxic Elemental Effect for your elemental strike abilities, etc. At least that is how I would pursue something like this... use the bent of the toxic path and apply powers in that regard towards the Adpets Power set... also picking up your unique metamagics of Cannabalize and Power Blwwd (Blood Magic bent obviously) would not be a bad idea either...

Keep the Faith

@ Glyph: Dang, that's right. Thanks for that.

@ Jake: So then, Insect Shamans can effectively have an unlimited number of spirits and merges with the queen around. I can see that being an advantage, as long as he's not eaten. In regards to Toxics, ya... I know you can't play one by RAW, and that's brought me down for the better part of a year and a half. Toxics are what dragged me from being a casual liker of SR (only playing the video games, reading some fluff every now and then) to being a die-hard fan of (almost) everything ever published. What I was meaning to do, is create a Toxic character that would be balanced out to make it perhaps easier to accept into a campaign. That's what I wanted everyone's opinions for, everything from stats and qualities to spells and biography. The idea is to make a toxic shaman who ''breaks the mould''. Other PCs wouldn't know about his choice in path (some sort of Dark Secret-like quality), stuff like that. Whatever it would take to make a Toxic PC as feasible as possible and also throw a good amount of roleplaying and story potential in along with it. I'ma Toxic Rights activist.

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein: By that do you mean a ''Toxic'' Adept should have Cannibalize and Power Bleed, or should I attempt to create a toxic equivalent?

If I could add my minor question about Spirits that'd be cool.

Spirits of Man have Innate Spell, which has a duration of "as spell". While an Innate Spell is being sustained by a spirit, does the spirit suffer -2 to all actions like with a spell being sustained, or does it simply count as an effect against the spirit's cap of sustained effects equal to it's Magic score?

From what I could determine, Cannabalize and Power Bleed are related to the Blood Path for Adepts... I would imagine that there are equivalents in the Toxic Paths in some way, shape or form, but they are not published to my knowledge, unless indicated in a 3rd edition book somewhere...

For a Toxic Adept, I would build him with toxic variants on powers, and look for ways to corrupt normal metamagic into a toxic path metamagic... cannabalize might be a good place to start... BEsides, Toxic Path is not about the Powers, it is about the Philosophy (Although Power never hurts)...

Keep the Faith

Please elaborate on this "toxic magician who breaks the mold" concept. The "breaks the mold" bit pretty much goes without saying: normal (if the word "normal" can be applied to toxics) toxics crave the destruction of metahumanity at large.


Even by the standards of your average shadowrunner, himself rarely a paragon of moral virtue, toxic magicians are worthy only of a double-tap to the back of the head and a late-night interment in a shallow grave. Unless you plan to do a Face Heel Turn at some point, or are in a campaign where the PCs are explicitly villains, it's hard to imagine a toxic PC working.

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein: True, I guess I'll have to see what metamagics might be worth ''corrupting'' for a toxic-path adept.

@Tanegar: A Poisoner. A Poisoner who loves the ''new elements''. Essentially, this guy is just a poisoner, but he's not out to actively destroy life, like Reapers might do, or society, as Havocs would. The way I described it in his tradition (Which I took down) is that he sees himself as ''Pro-Toxic''. Similar to a member of Humanis. He would take steps towards such things as, relieving the bounty on toxic mages... even if he had to do so as a Mr. Johnson for a very long time (Knowing that if anyone discovered his polluted nature, they'd hunt him down). Taking a political or 'civil' approach to what he wanted to accomplish. He would be a 'Toxic Shaman' with feelings towards toxicity and pollution similar if not equivalent to the mindset many shamans (''eco-shamans'') have towards Mother Nature. Toxicity is his Mother Nature.

Over time, this character has become ''twisted''. Maybe over the course of a couple runs he began to doubt the ''structural integrity'' of nature as it's currently perceived. Perhaps some encounter with a toxic paracritter or magician had shown him the power that comes with Toxic Magic. He could have been just born different, and found a comfort in sludge, harmful chemicals, and skyglow that the gardens and waterfalls of Earth can't match. Whatever his reason, this particular Toxic is not ''evil'' or ''insane'' to the same degree as the kinda T.Shaman your runners might face in combat because he's destroying an environment. This character, if given the choice... would be an Awakened wageslave using toxic magic. Simply, he has a love of toxic magic. He's not a ''bad'' person, he just has an affinity and liking for something that is perceived as bad.

Take Ghouls for example. Yes, many of them actively run out and rip people apart for food. Many work for Tamanous, and do more vile versions of runs because they can stock up their 'frige and ensure today and tomorrow's dinner. Then there are the other ghouls, the ones who fight what they are, or attempt to lead a ''normal'' life despite their infected status. They run campaigns, fund-raisers, and do whatever it takes to try and liberate themselves from being oppressed and murdered. ''Not all ghouls are savage beasts who want to rip your heart out and eat your children'' is a message they try to convey. This Toxic character would fall into that second category.

I'm not sure you have a firm handle on the nature of toxic magic, chummer. With the advent of tissue-culture technologies, ghouls can obtain metahuman flesh without needing to actually kill metahumans to get it. Toxic magicians need to wreck civilization. That's what makes them toxic. A poisoner who doesn't poison... isn't a poisoner. Wage mages, by definition, do not use toxic magic. The corps they work for wouldn't allow it. Add to that the fact that toxic magic, like blood magic, is inherently corruptive and destructive.

You can start off as "toxic-curious," but if you decide to become a full-blown toxic later on, be prepared for the ideas that 1) you will be hunted as an enemy of the state, particularly in places that have even the vaguest of green pretensions (god help you if you go to Tir na nOg) and 2) your teammates are quite likely to turn you in for the reward.

As for the bounty, Dunkelzahn's Will states:
"In order to discourage the proliferation of toxic shamans, I offer a bounty of 1 million nuyen on any toxic shamans captured alive and delivered to the Dunkelzahn Institute of Magical Research for the purposes of studying the effects of toxicity on the physical and astral presence of such shamans, and how they in turn impact the physical and astral world."

1 million nuyen sounds really nice. I wonder if they account for inflation or deflation in 4th edition from 3rd edition, since most products are a lot cheaper in 4th edition. If you were playing in my game, as soon as we knew that you were Toxic, you'd be knocked out and turned for the reward in no time flat. New character!

EDIT: I suppose you can create some sort of suicide device to prevent the "captured alive" part. I wonder what they'd pay for a dead one?

@Tanegar: I hope I would have a grasp on the nature of Toxic Magic, I've read that section of Street Magic too much for my own good. I've always been aware that the nature of toxic magic corrupts and bends the mind, and that toxic magicians invariably want to destroy and pollute, but that's never kept my mind from wandering. Despite all of that, I still want to try and bend the rules a bit, to me there would be nothing more fulfilling than using toxic magic. 99% of all games will probably never accept that character or concept, but I still want to make the character balanced and reasonable enough so that 1% will have an easier time coping with it. I know that a corp will never allow toxic magic, that's why this character... as much as he'd love to live a ''normal life'' ... cannot work for a corp or do the other things ''normal'' people do, because people hate and fear Toxics. (All with good reason, of course).

I'm just a toxic fanatic. Your game mechanics and logic will never apply to me. I will fight on!!!!

=)

So, a poisoner needs to poison... that much I understand. But does a poisoner need to poison in a way that wrecks metahumanity? A toxic shaman who owns land should be free to destroy and corrupt the soil he's bought, does he really feel the need to ''toxify'' everything around him... if he's content with his own surroundings? Are the books and rules really so adamant about toxics that there can't even be a handful of toxics who just enjoy the nature of pollution, and couldn't care less about deconstructing society and killing metahumanity?

@hahnsoo: If I ever get the chance (which I probably won't), I'm going to drop a couple nukes on the DIMR.
...I wonder if I could turn myself in?

You'll need more than a couple of them. As of Loose Alliances, they have offices in Denver, Prague, Karlsruhe, and Athens, and Loose Alliances also predates SR4. In Loose Alliances, it also states that they plan to open offices in Bangkok, Neo-Tokyo, Vladivostok, Lima, Sekondi, and Buenos Aires in the next five years... by 2070, Crash 2.0 notwithstanding, they've probably built those offices, and plan on building even more in other locations. Also, you should know by now that nukes don't stop anything in the Shadowrun Universe... at least, they have all failed in an epic manner thus far.

Really? I was aware that a lot of nukes just stopped working, but are they all rendered ineffective now? Didn't Ares or someone use one to try and wipe out the nest in Chicago?

And that's too many offices. Maybe I'll just... hide in a sewer somewhere, and aspect it towards toxic magic, and cry.... cry because no one loves the toxics... and there's nothing I can do about it.

That one detonated, but it didn't work as intended. And the insect spirits still survived after it. So that was another epic failure for nukes.

The biggest detonation of nuclear weapons occurred during Crash 2.0, when Winternight detonated multiple magically-enhanced nuclear devices. EMP bombs in San Francisco, Kittimat, Boston, Panama City, Stockholm, Calcutta, and Kuala Lumpur detonated. Large nukes in fault-lines near the Azores, Andean, and Himalayan mountains detonated, but all three had explosions far less than expected and only caused 6.5 Richter quakes, leaving no lasting damage. While the nukes were "successful", in that they caused a lot of damage (mostly due to EMP), they didn't bring about the end of the world as Winternight had hoped... it WAS the end of the 3rd edition universe, I guess. *grin* Still, this illustrates that in the SR universe, no matter how many nukes you throw at a problem, they really don't provide the intended solution.

Yeah, the Chi-Town Nuke and the Nukes Winternacht used in the 2.0 Crash worked because PLOT NEEDED THEM TO. Every other nuke did not.

Dang.
Well, frag the DIMR. They can study the effects of toxic magic when I shove a spirit-full of radiation down their throat!! >(

This isn't lookin' too good for me. ._.

Who needsNukes when you have Magic?
You just need to kill people to stave off the drain fro summoning a Force 10 great form earth spirit.
LOS force Earth-Quake, a 10 on the Richter Scale. in 10 kilometers reach. Everywhere around the spirit.
You can level whole megaplexes like this. And there is NO DEFENCE against this either.

Wow. That's insanely cheap.
Now, to convince an Earth spirit to assist my toxic regime and wipe out DIMR facilities across the globe...
Or maybe a couple Earth spirits.
Unless a GF Sludge spirit could do the same, but dunno 'bout that.

I'm sorry but that's not the way toxics work. They want to pollute, pillage, destroy humanity - PERIOD. No ifs, buts or exceptions. There's nothing to twist because their absolute in their quest. This is why I suggested a Twisted magician as opposed to a Toxic. Its easier to argue a cause (however twisted,pardon the pun) and somehow work to escape the PCs notice. In all likelihood wouldn't notice unless you did something psychotic (like murder, torture, rape as suggested in the sidebar) or started performing blood magic right infront of their eyes. Even then, if psychotic behaviour alone is par for the course in your group, you could still potentially get away with it. Also bear in mind that summoned spirits usually bear the mark of the twisted nature of the shaman summoning. PCs tend to notice spirits composed of blood red mist (Blood Spirit) or glowing burning green fire (Nuclear spirit) if you catch my drift.

I do think to some extent they are playable as PCs but the largest limiter is the other PCs.

For example -
My PCs would kill anyone playing such a character on general principle - and these characters are some of the coldest mofos I've ever seen in play! They have tortured people (repeatedly), sold guns, drugs, murdered people (innocent people) in cold blood, framed people, ruined marriages and professional careers of people, contract killing, you name it. But the one session where they refused to cross the line was when they were dealing with an insect shaman who was a paedophile and kidnapping children to use them as vessels. You should have seen how they reacted. They went to extraordinary efforts and risk to save the kids and annihilate the hive.

If you want to make it work, try building a character concept that fits the gameplay rather than trying to twist the rules to justify you playing one.

- J.

You don't need no stinking convincing.
You just have to summon something bigger than your head and live to tell about it.
If you can summon and keep it, it has to do your bidding.
Tell it to go there and then use that power for as long as possible.
Instant heap of rubble.

Even Evil Has Standards, eh?

And don't forget, kids, TVTropes Will Ruin Your Life.

So what you're telling me is, the poisoners who ''believe they have been touched by the new elemental forces at loose in the world, and see themselves as the avatars of those forces'' are in the same league of ''evil'' as pedophile insect shaman who kidnaps children and turns them into vessels? The impression I got from the description of poisoners is that they are really no different from the ''radical eco-shaman'' who will take out corps and those who defile the Earth in the name of ''Mother Nature'', but poisoners aren't as tolerated because they wield magical powers that are harmful to the environment. Zealots are described as often sociopathic, Avengers target most (if not all) metahumanity, Blood mages and adepts bleed their victim, (and in the case of adepts) consume the body, and use that horrific act for the sole purpose of fueling their magic or summoning spirits which are inherently violent. Insect shamans seek to propagate a type of spirit species which is entirely alien in nature, and desires to take over the entirety of metahumanity. Reading through magical threats, I get the impression that Poisoners are a much ''lesser evil'' in terms of mentality and goals. Almost everything else seems like it would be much more ''evil'' or actively ''evil'' than a Poisoner (with the exception of Faustian mages, Necromancers, and Demonologists, though Necromancers are also stated as sometimes being in league with shedim).

I find this especially true amongst the rest of the Toxics. Reapers want the destruction of metahumanity, Havocs want society to collapse and are essentially anarchists with a penchant for ''carnage, addiction, vice, repression, and all kinds of perversions.'', and Sterilists seem to be like cold, logic-driven Zealots.

Even some of the Toxic mentor spirits seem less violent or destructive than their ''normal'' cousins. Doom, Rabid Dog, and Radiation I can totally understand being a major threat, even Pollution. Pestilent Rat though? How does he differ much from the original Rat totem, aside from being a toxic variant? Both do what they need to do to survive, probably forced to do things like thievery and murder just because that's how things go for them. The Seductress is described in SR4A as, ''She exists to exploit weaknesses and will not hesitate to sacrifice those who get in her way.''. Sharks can go into a bloodfrenzy when they're harmed or harm another person. The worst example I have being the Dark Goddess, who ''relishes confrontation''. I understand that the idea behind toxic magicians is that they are supposed to be twisted, insane, evil, however you want to describe it. But when I read ''Poisoner'' there's just no avoiding the thought that this could be a person who has done nothing more than come to realization that pollution is taking over the world, and at this rate nature will never compete with it.

I'm getting a little worked up over that, so let's continue. =)

You're totally right about the whole spirit thing, and I've taken that into account. The thing is, I'm trying to create a character concept that's shape can fit into the game, even if it takes a little nudging. That's why I've come to you guys, because you all know it way better than I do, and the 'Shockers would have a better chance of figuring it out than I would. You have experience as both PCs and GMs, you've probably experienced the toxic side first hand, and you've probably seen the rules and concepts develop over time, all advantages since I have none of that. I want to take a Toxic square, and find out if there's a way to make it an oval, so it has a better chance of fitting into the spherical slot of a PC. But as many of you are telling me, it just doesn't seem possible unless your group/campaign is based off insanity or twisted characters in whatnot... so bending the rules is looking like the only option I have.

Maybe it's because I haven't experienced toxics before 4th ed. Maybe it's because I'm not old enough to drink. Maybe I'm just missing something here, but I still don't see why a (certain minded) toxic couldn't function as a ''normal'' member of society, IF given the opportunity.

That was more because all the queens were busy having a colossal rave and raising an even bigger magic barrier. It detonated, but most of the blast wave was contained.

Personally, I'd say you should take what people have said here, and the additional insights you've gained from the discussion, and ask your GM about it. Point out a few of the reasons Toxics are generally not allowed and how you intend to play it differently, make sure to explain that you're trying to make the character fit into the game, not disrupt it, and see what happens.

Honestly, this whole argument reminds me of trying to play a cleric/paladin who used the Animate Dead spell back in the old AD&D 2nd ed days. The rules advise against it, and that's all many GMs need to outright ban it and refuse to hear anything you might have to say on the subject. (Not accusing anyone here, as for the most part, it actually has been a discussion.)

I suggest you read Street Magic - p. 136 "Perception of Evil":
"...Shadowrunners, for instance,
live at the murkier end of the grey area.
Mainstream society views (and sometimes even
glorifies) their actions as criminal, violent, and
evil, particularly those who engage in premeditated
acts of terror, destruction, and assassination.
By the same measure, the machinations
of insect spirits and shedim are considered evil
by both society at large and those who live at its
edges, though thaumaturgical scholars might
argue that they are not evil so much as alien
and inhuman in nature (and therefore beyond
metahuman values and morality)."

and p. 138 "Playing The Twisted":

"...Though not as deranged as toxic magicians,
the twisted typically exhibit strong asocial tendencies,
socio- or psychopathic behavior, and
varying degrees of schizophrenia. Most twisted
are contemptuous of and disaffected by society’s
rules, values, and morality, and do not balk
at crimes such as murder, rape, or defilement."

Even by RAW, the book basically says "if you're going to play one, play a Twisted". Anything else is simply too alien.

I sympathise with your questions on toxics. The write up given is very sparse and often leaves a GM (or in this case player) alone to answer most of these questions on their own. But there is a reason behind it - and that's because if they ever occur it is usually due to the GM creating a specific NPC or adventure around them.

If you cannot understand why toxics are so horrifying, read THIS.



Honestly, if that is the case, what has your GM said? Has he offered any advice?

This is something well within the confines of GM fiat and I don't see we could suggest anything here that would fit without knowing more about your group of players. If you haven't played Shadowrun before (which sounds to me as the case) or this is a new group, then I would suggest there is little point or value in your pushing to play one other than because you perceive Evil is cool.

- J.

PS: As an addendum, that insect shaman I mentioned, I created the most twisted, depraved, evil character I could because I wanted to see how my players react. It was extreme but it was for a purpose.

I read the Winternight thing, and I completely understand why people fear toxics.

You are correct in your assumption that I've never actually played a game of SR before. I've read a lot of books, and made a couple characters, I've free-form roleplayed for 12 years and even done a little D&D, but I've never actually played Shadowrun. This is woven with the fact that I don't actually have a GM, since no one around me likes Shadowrun, and that's contributed greatly to me not doing any SR before. From what I've seen on this site, you guys can do it online too? But I have no idea how that works...

One thing I wanna clarify though is that I don't think ''Evil is cool''. I don't want to play a toxic because I want to plague everyone with radiation, laugh like a maniac and construct devious plots. I want to play a toxic because I like the concept of following pollution as opposed to nature, using a different sect of powers than the ones people traditionally use. Things like radiation, ''chemicals'' and skyglow are things that have always appealed to me, and I was instantly attracted to the idea of Toxic Magic when I first read it. Therein lies the biggest problem, because I want to be a ''non-evil'' toxic magician when (as you guys are telling me) there are none, and it may be impossible for there to be one.

Depends on your definition of evil. Considering that most people would consider the sort of things Shadowrunners do without a second thought evil, you start getting into some problems with this pretty fast. Toxic Shamans are among the iconic foes of the game, though, and most people will balk at the idea of a player being one. Frankly, I'm not sure why depicting a person's descent into madness and struggle to retain his humanity as he constantly replaces part of his body with machine is ok, but portraying basically the same thing only with Toxic magic is verboten.

So long as the PC is constructed in such a way that the power level is on-par with the other players and such that the character can operate as part of the group, I fail to see the problem. Sure, most Toxic Shamans just can't function in a group, but most Hermetics can't throw fireballs, and no one bats an eye at a PC building that character.

Then why not use the "Radical Eco-Shaman" archtype?

Most of what you described sounds like what you really want is access to the Radiation power (hence "Evil is cool"). Being a "non-evil" toxic is mutually exclusive. It just doesn't work.

While I'm sure every toxic would hardly think they are evil, the rest of the world (including the other player characters) around them would beg to differ. There's the rub.

I've said all that I can say really. You'll need to talk to your GM.

- J.

=(
@ Jake: I have no GM. I am lonely.

Why would a Radical Eco-Shaman archetype equate or be similar to the Toxic Magician I'm trying to create? The Eco-Shaman wants to protect nature. Now, if I apply this in ''the opposite direction'' so to speak, and make a ''normal'' mage who fights to preserve toxicity.. I've effectively created a magician with no access to any of the spirits or metamagic a Toxic would have... while more than likely having the same social drawbacks (I imagine other PCs would see this as leading towards a toxic path, or just assume he's a poisoner and end up killing/turning in the normal mage anyway.). If I made a normal shaman with the exact same outlook as the character I've planned... then he'd just be a nutcase who believes in Radiation, but can only summon Fire spirits. He revels in smog and acid, but can only summon spirits which look like pollutants, but essentially are not.

Yes, Radiation does appeal to me. However, the tradition I'm playing around with for this character does not include Radiation spirits (anymore) as a class that the shaman can summon, because I'm pretty convinced that radiation spirits are ridiculously powerful.
Thanks for the input, I appreciate it. =)

@Rystefn: That's what I wanted help with, regarding Toxic Magic. I've been aware that most GMs won't ever allow a Toxic PC, for many reasons but one of them probably being that they are pretty strong. I need help with ideas and options that would assist in making a Toxic PC more balanced in relation to the group and whatever encounters came up. I also wanted to make it reasonable within the realm of RPing, which has become an issue. I didn't think the attitude and mindset of toxics were so absolute, and that there could be some variance in it. My original concept was a Toxic with a decent tradition, had good social skills (to evade anyone figuring out the reality of his polluted nature. At least, as many people as possible), and could function as a member of a group or society without running into TOO much trouble.

Ok - to summarise.

1) You have no GM.
2) You have never played SR before.
3) You want to play a "good" toxic.

I don't mean to be harsh but no-one is going to let an inexperienced SR player play a toxic shaman - "good" or not.
I've also explained that there is no such thing as a "good" toxic shaman but you don't seem to see reason.



I suggested the Radical Eco-Shaman as a base because the concept is close enough to what you described and is playable, less the Radiation spirits. But as you've indicated thats what you're really after, it comes back to you wanting to play with Radiation because "Evil Is Cool". So I stand by my earlier assessment.



They are powerful, which is why they are reserved for NPCs normally.

At the end of the day, what you are striving for simply doesn't fit the genre. If you want to play in a (post) apocalyptic/futuristic setting with access to nuclear power, Deadlands would be a better RPG for you (Children of the Atom or whatever they are going from memory, its been awhile).

If you're persistent in wanting to find a GM who will let you play in Shadowrun however, you will need to abandon this silly concept and notion.

- J.

To balance the power-level, there's really nothing to do but sit down with a GM and go power-by-power and spirit-by-spirit and tweak anything that's not about on par with a regular mage. Some GMs will love to do something like this, as a willingness to take toned-down versions of the powers just to get your concept on the table will mark you as someone who wants to tell a cool story, as opposed to someone who wants a super-powered character. Some GMs will want nothing to do with it because, frankly, it's a ton of work. Best advice I can give is be patient, be willing to take a couple of nerfs that put things a bit below the power of a normal mage, and be clear that if you think you find a loophole, you won't complain if the GM shuts you down instantly at the table so long as you can sit down later and discuss it.

Yeah, it's a long and uphill road. No way around that, unfortunately. Sad to say, you'll likely never get there. I never got my aforementioned Necro-Paladin allowed, either.

Play a normal game of Shadowrun first with an actual GM and players with a normal character. Then think about doing the freaky and weird stuff. Otherwise, you're just playing your own power fantasy. This isn't to say that Roleplaying games aren't a form of power fantasy, but it's not really conducive to playing as a group of friends around a table or in a virtual tabletop.

You should do a bit more research into playing RPGs online. There are many avenues to pursue in this regard, from virtual tabletop software like Maptools (rptools.net) to IRC chat rooms to Google Wave games.

Paladin of Tyranny 2-3/Dread Necromancer 8/Spellsword1/EK9-10 is the closest you'll get.

- J.

Seconded. If for no other reason, you'll have a much firmer grasp of what the powers do and what the numbers mean, and be able to pitch your character from an informed position.

This I can understand.



You can stand by the assessment all you want, but you will still be wrong. But what confuses me is how a archetype in the SR book which is almost the exact opposite in mentality is ''close enough'' to what I'm attempting to accomplish. Before that comes off as asshole-ish, Let me stress that I honestly have no idea how you came to that conclusion. Enlighten me. As well, how can you still say that the reason I want a Toxic Mage is because I want to play with Radiation, and then quote another part of my post afterward saying:



If I'm so obsessed with blasting radiation at people's faces and summoning radiation spirits, it would make sense for my Toxic to include the ability to conjure a radiation spirit in the first place. If that was the whole point of me playing a toxic, then there would be no reason for me to discard that capability entirely. If I REALLY wanted Radiation that badly, I'd be fighting for that too. I'm not, I gave that up before Radiation was even brought up in this thread.






Okay. Maybe I gave off the wrong impression earlier. I do not want to play a Toxic for the power involved. I want to play a Toxic for the concept of the poisoner belief, notably that pollution is the new force in this world. Obviously, there's an attraction to the kind of power involved, but that's true with any archetype or character made. The power and magic of the toxic path is not my main concern or the primary reason I want to play a toxic. I find the roleplaying potential for it interesting. I do not want to play a Toxic to irradiate metahumans and eat through concrete walls with Acid spirits. I do not want to be more powerful than other PCs or ''normal'' characters in any way. Maybe I'm not explaining this the same way as I'm thinking it, but me wanting to be a toxic has nothing to do with being evil, powerful, and essentially being a bad-guy who can play as a PC.



This. This This this this! THIS is what I want to do.

Alright. Enough of my ranting. As you mentioned, Rystefn: Tweaking spirits, spells, and stuff. This is what I made the topic for. Ideas, comments, How to / what would make this easier for a GM to accept? I realize that all GMs probably have a different take on it. If you have the time, Dumpshock, maybe make an example or two of what you would do/want (as a GM) to be taken out, replaced, whatever. For example, Do any of you think that removing a Sludge spirit's Anaphylaxis power and Guard optional power would bring it reasonably close to being on-par with an average Earth or Water spirit? Maybe tweaking it's Engulf? Whatever it takes, I honestly don't care.

The three of you suggested that I should play a game of SR first. I would love to, and before I ever attempt to implement this character into a group or campaign I assure you I will. Once I figure out how. I'll have to check into that Maptool thing, sounds pretty neat.

Once again, thanks all. =) And dismiss anything that may appear negative in tone, the internet is a very hard place to convey emotion over.

It's not the power. I don't care about the power. When I say "power fantasy", I mean "wish fulfillment". The very concept of a Toxic Shaman is something that isn't conducive to group play. If other players are playing citizens of the Sixth World, they'll look at your character as either a menace or as a paycheck. The reason I said it was a "power fantasy" is not because you want "uber stats". It's because you want to shoehorn a concept in your mind into a roleplaying game which revolves around teamwork, cooperation, and blending in. It's the same reason people like games like Fallout 3 and GTA IV... these are power fantasies that allow you to live out things that you wouldn't normally be able to do in real life. It's also the same reason why Fallout 3 and GTA IV are supremely single player games... you take the spotlight, you do what you want, without thinking about the rest of the group.

The big problem is not the power level. It's the fact that in order to fulfill your personal power fantasy, the GM will have to make concessions on your behalf to both the setting and the rest of the group. Your wish fulfillment comes at the opportunity cost of other people's attention and time. The GM will have to spend MORE time working with you than the other normal characters, and this is definitely not a fair thing to do at a game table. You have to think beyond yourself when going into a roleplaying group. Otherwise, you are no better than the ultraviolent Troll who throws grenades after killing a bouncer in a club, as detailed in another thread here. You are ruining other people's fun.

Don't think about implementing a Toxic in a group. Think about playing the actual game of Shadowrun first, with actual players and an actual GM, with a human/metahuman character who falls into a typical shadowrunner archetype. Then go for crazy shit like drakes on a plane or multi-armed Nartaki or AI hackers. *disgust*

LOL. Now where have I read that before....

- J.

My bad, I misunderstood. Makes sense now.



Okay, I can understand that. In fact that makes a lot of sense. Now my question would be, what steps can be taken to reduce the amount attention and time taken from them. What can -I- do right now, to make this easier? I'm not planning on trying this out in my first SR run evar, probably not even my second or third. I plan on taking whatever advice I can and molding, tweaking, and evolving the concept overtime as my knowledge and experience grows, and as more information is released to supplement it (if there will be any). It really isn't my intent to infringe on anyone else's playing experience, but I have a very, very hard time believing this whole deal can't be simplified.

Some years back i had a player who tried his hands at a twisted adversary magician.
He was a sadistic little bugger(i think he was 16?)who had some definite mental issues, of course, some
of that could have came from the 'visions' he was getting from his mentor spirit as to what his grand purpose
was, etc.
After a three session streak of killing lions in the zoo to slaughtering lone star officers with mono whips and mind controlling
the others i believe the Street Sam turned him in for the reward.
It was either that or he was going to cap him in the head in the sewers for some of the atrocities he had seen him perform.
It was a sad day, the two had developed a very Chris Farley, David Spade relationship,
Ork Ghoul sammy and Night One psychopath.
The Sammy even called him "Kid Crazy"....*sniff*
I guess my point is, no matter how awesome it can be for roleplaying and making a GM work his ass off-
your character(the twisted/toxic/whatever)gets fragged in the end.

It can be simplified, and I will now proceed to simplify it for you.

Nobody likes pollution. Nobody. Most people accept a certain level of pollution, for a variety of reasons, but nobody is really happy about it, for the very, very simple and elementary reason that pollution is harmful. It causes diseases: cancer, lung disease, heart disease, developmental anomalies in children, just to name a few. That's without even mentioning the horror and loathing that most normal shamans will feel for you. The instant you start spouting off about how pollution is the new green, you're going to be pegged as a toxic (regardless of whether or not your character personally has ever done anything to spread or encourage the spread of pollution) and either killed or turned in. Because nobody likes pollution.

You cannot get around this. You might - MIGHT - be able to find a GM willing to go do the massive amount of work necessary to create a toxic PC. The other PCs in the group, however, will - not may, WILL - view your character as either a threat or a paycheck, as Hahnsoo so eloquently put it.

Bottom line: The probability of ever being able to play a toxic magician is vanishingly tiny. That's simple.

Being a toxic isn't a hobby. You're trying to make a serial killer that only kills people who actively try to mug him (or something else equally absurd, IE, a serial killer who doesn't serial kill), or a rabid dog that only bites people who attack him.

I don't care how many times you've read over the rules for these guys, you're obviously not getting some of it. Toxics don't do what they do out of a rational mindset, or because they want to, or because they just want five acres of rotten land and the bloated, maggot-riddled, corpse of a mule...and then, with their one little plot of corrupt land around them, they'll be content. They do what they do because they have to. They've got the twisted, evil, dark sides of Totems commanding them to go forth and spread corruption, on top of a laundry list of psychosis and impulse control issues.

They're not NPC-only turf because they're too powerful to be part of a balanced game (though they are), they're NPC-only turf because sometimes a character idea is just so innately destructive and evil that it would wreck any game it got tossed into, even in Shadowrun. So make your character to scratch whatever weird itch you've got, but understand that he'll either be ridiculously disruptive to any game you get him in (other than maybe a "let's all be eeeeeevil" one shot), or you'll be playing him flat out wrong, in active disagreement with the stated mindset, goals, and outlook of the toxics as presented in canon material.

Nope. The character is Lawful Good. This is critical and not up for discussion in any sense. It was rules-legal under the 2nd edition RAW, actually, with a much milder warning against the type than a Toxic in SR has.



The GM will have to spend more time with you before the game starts. This is perfectly fair. Or are you saying it's unfair to experienced players to bring in someone who's never played an RPG before? If he's trying to put this work in to make the character viable in a group, how is it not viable in a group? Here's a quick piece of advice: Let go of your stereotypes.

*shrugs* Alrighty. *poof* They are let go. It still doesn't change the fact that he hasn't played in an actual game of Shadowrun yet.

Sure, it may not end badly. We've had new players come in with green-skinned Orcs From Another Game and Jedi Masters with Lightsabers before. These were ridiculous levels of power fantasies that crumbled to ashes in their mouth and were terrible for them to play in the game because it ran counter to the setting, and even with concessions made, they couldn't fill any role to make their characters needed and wanted. Or they hogged the limelight with their character and always stole the attention from others, making for a poor game for all. This is a definite pattern, and it's not just in my gaming groups. Said new players usually rolled another character (usually due to a mistake from hubris, like taking on a dragon in melee combat or something), and both the group and the new player were much happier after getting their wish-fulfillment power trip out of their system.

Anyway, whatever floats your boat. Just make sure that everyone else's boat is floating, too, okay?