OTOH how many snipers do you know that are just as dangerous when wielding a shotgun without ever having any training specific to the shotgun?

To be honest with you, I've never met a "sniper" who wasn't a marksman across all small arms, pistols included, but I agree that lumping Shotguns in with "sniper rifles" is a bit of a stretch.

Yes, it does. If you're firing an anti-vehicle rocket (which you should be), your DV has just dropped by 12. Going from 16P to 4P. You couldn't hurt a Mercury Comet with an AV rocket if you missed by 3m.


Yes, it hits the ground seven meters away from the person you were shooting at. Assuming he's tied to a chair. If the target can move, you miss by more than that.

Rystein:
The ONLY way I've seen to make the missile and grenade rules usable against armored vehicles is to consider them 'large' targets.

EG: I'm aiming at the center of the sidewall of the bulldog's cargo compartment, the side of the box is about 5mx3m.. So if the shot scatters a little, it doesn't hit dead center, but it still hits the side of the vehicle. (I don't hit dead center, I barely catch the side of the cargo compartment... or for scattering more than 2m... maybe it hits the engine/drivers area). For something huge like a semi or even a warship... this makes more sense for 'small arms' like RPG's and the like.


Though you're making exactly the same arguments I did when the scatter rules were first written to try and get them changed back. The current scatter rules are a travesty... and it renders certain anti-vehicle weapons like LAWs all but unusable. (4d6 scatter, -1m per hit... and -4DV per m damage degradation... good luck!).

Quite frankly, if it was up to me... I'd roll something like 2d6 base scatter plus 1d6 per range increment. Airburst reduces scatter by -1d6. Then give GL's something like -2m scatter per hit, while giving missiles/rockets -3m per hit to reflect their direct fire accuracy.


Quite frankly though... in an abstract combat system, I don't see why people have to 'move' the impact point, rather than just consider it part of the nebulous 'soak'... he shielded himself somehow from the blast making it 'appear' farther from him than it actually was.

Because his 1337 ninja-skilz makes it 'appear' closer to the other guy than it actually was - to the point of "Resist 10P damage".




That is how it works in Real Life, right?

People practice dodging, right?

It's part of standard training to get shot at and make the bullets miss you?
Spending a little time at the dodging range..

That is a modifier of... one, right? Not even close enough to matter. I much prefer the standard "If you make a successful roll, then you hit" rule. Yes, this makes rockets scary as fuck. They should be.


Because the scatter rules make the blast hit people that otherwise would not be hit. That's an actual move. One person's defense roll affects every single person in the room. It's not just an unrealistic rule. It's bad game design.

No you're just being ornery.


You toss grenade... guard 1 gets no successes... guard 2 gets 2 success, guard 3 gets obsenely lucky and gets 5.

You don't reposition the grenade... just terrain intervenes somehow, or shrapnel doesn't fly equally in his direction from the frag grenade or whatever. For whatever reason instead of taking full damage, guard 3 is treated as if he's 5m farther away from the frag than he actually is. It's just a nebulous part of the soak. The grenade still lands and explodes where it scatters.


Even today, grunts can avoid grenades by dropping prone, carefull use of hard cover and similar techniques.


My only real issue w/ the scatter rules is that things at extreme range scatter just as much as if they were at close range. And that amount is so much as to be unusable for what should be basic equpiment like a LAW.

Uh.

That's not how it works in RAW.

RAW says you toss a grenade at Guard 1, who gets 4 successes on his dodge test, which makes the grenade fall under guard 2 and near guard 3, but farther away from guard 4 and guard 1.

Then it goes off. Guards 2-4 have no say in this matter.

I quote SR4a... under determining scatter...
"If targeting a location, treat this as a Success Test instead. Apply standard ranged attack dice pool modifiers."
There is no requirement to attack a person... you can just say I'm tossing it around the corner.

I'm a little fuzzy here... Synner I think it was, later clarified that EVERY guard in the blast zone gets a reaction test. As otherwise it simply turns into... I'm attacking the ottoman (yes footstool) w/ a grenade... too bad for the guy in the chair he gets no reaction.

Functionally this is little different than if I targetted them all w/ a fireball spell.

Edit: little did they know the bad guy was actually using an Ottoman as an ottoman ;P.

Awesome...

As Falconer said, if you're aiming at the middle of a Citymaster, and you miss by three meters, you still hit the thing. Especially if the result is "long".

"Okay, you're aiming your rocket at the three-meter-high brick wall that surrounds the mansion. You're eight meters back. Hmm, your scatter is one meter, and... long. The rocket detonates just the other side of the wall. What, you rolled four hits, and no glitch, and don't understand how you could possibly have had that much arc? I don't know either, but that's what the rules say happens."

What I was getting at with the second scenario (sorry, wasn't clear at all), is that it seems to me that if a missile, traveling parallel with the ground, misses it's upright target, it wouldn't suddenly veer towards the ground, and detonate a few meters from the target. It's all or nothing. At least that's what it looks like to me. (And I think that was a general rant, and not directed at any one comment.)

So why not:
1.) Treat all grenade attacks as a success test (like targeting a location)
2.) Determine scatter in some reasonable manner (I like the idea of using range increments, tho I would go with 2d6 base, -1d6@short, +0d6@medium, +1d6@long and +2d6@extreme modified by things like airburst links, etc).
3.) Allow all affected targets a Reaction (+/- Dodge) test which moves *them* 1 meter away from the blast location per hit*; if they clear the blast radius, they get no damage, but may need to expend a simple action to Stand Up from prone.
4.) Resolve damage as normal

*the problem I foresee here is vehicle dodging. Not sure how you would incorporate that.

I forget where, precisely, but it was distinctly clarified that if anyone would be caught in the blast, then it must be targeted against one of them, not a location.

Even if you disregard this (which is reasonable, as I think it was probably the FAQ crap), then there are two Rules as Written options left:

• You target a single individual as described under grenades. Scatter is determined based on their Defense test. Everyone else in the area has no say whatsoever.
• You target a location, making it a Success Test. No one gets a Defense test against the grenade. Period.

First option is precisely what the "clarification", wherever it may be, claims always happens.

Either way, the bullshit you have been spewing has no basis in the rules whatsoever. Stop claiming it does.

Not how it works. Doesn't matter how large your target is - the grenade/rocket/etc will land [Scatter] meters away from it - not [Scatter] meters away from the center point.

This get's particularly amusing when firing against airborne targets. "Uh, Sir? The (unguided) rocket detonated 8 meters directly behind the helicopter..."

This is just not true. As was previously stated, if you miss, then you miss, and it strikes 3m away from the vehicle. Even if it wasn't, I think you underestimate how big 3m is... or do you think a Citymaster is a giant 20' cube rolling down the street? Or maybe you're assuming you're always firing at the side of the vehicle and scatter only goes left or right, never short or long?

I would say that for targeting vehicles it works the same way. If you think about throwing a grenade at a vehicle there's the airtime of the 'nade before it reaches the target location, during which the vehicle in motion would change its location relative to the expected blast zone. I'd give the driver bonus dice to "dodge" based on how fast the vehicle was traveling.

This topic has always been one of those things that is at odds with persoanl ecperience... as much as I hat e the system, it works for one very good thing... it reduces the lethality of such weapons such that when faced with them, the PC's are not eliminated in a blast of gore... a Compromise that I can live with, as SHadowrun is already fairly deadly as it is...

Rockets are very brutal, and there are steps that you can take to reduce the scatter to something reasonable even with the RAW, Airburst Link being the choice of champions... scatter is tehrefore reduced to 2d6... that being said... if you read the description of the Airburst link (I know, it is not Crunch it is fluff) the scatter will never go other than left or right, as the weapon detonates at the precise range of the target... again, I know, Not Crunchy Rules, Just Fluffy Bits... but an interesting note nonetheless...

Also... The chart on Page 155 SR4A implies that an Airburst Link has the ability to provide a Sensor Rating bonus (Assuming that the link has a Sensor, or the ordinance has a Sensor) at which point even minor semi-guided rockets (as in the TOW) or Missiles will most likely impact what they are in fact aimed at more often than not... and even non-guided ordinance is better able to be utilized...

And as for the actual RAW... Muspelsheimr is absolutely correct... there are really only 2 options... and we have actually used both in the past... it makes for very scarry applications of explosive devices, both grenades and rockets/missiles...

Muspy you're spouting crap then just as much as I am with half remembered crap. At least I'm honest about it and listing where it is half-remembered. I think that same clarification said it must be targeted against all of them, I can't find it though (and I can't find yours either).


Quite frankly... I think all we've done is establish that the strict RAW of rockets and grenades is a mess right now. And disagree w/ the use of 'dodge' test people keep saying... reaction defense test unless of course they're doing full defense.


Also taking your reading... I fire an unguided RPG dead center at the broadside of a battleship... oh I miss. At least I'm trying to stick w/in RAW and reality by saying you don't hit the thing dead center. It brings new meaning to the term "can't hit the broadside of a barn" when you completely ignore the size of the target being fired at.

Actually that sparks something Arsenal had bonus dice for firing at large items... not that this helps overmuch as it was only good for maybe 3 more dice at most... and 1 more hit vs. a 4d6 scatter isn't much help.

Similarly applying RAW... an indirect weapon like a GL which fires on a high arc, then lands makes sense to scatter based on a top down view. However an anti-vehicle rocket which is flying straight line... then turn the scatter chart vertical and apply it against the side of the target fired at.


For the record... I believe that the citymaster is a large wheeled APC similar to a stryker... and roughly speaking 7m long, 3m high, 3m wide.... so broadside that's roughly 21m2 surface area. In rough terms, that's roughly the same size as a small cargo truck... and definately smaller than an 18 wheeler.

You realize of course that that wouldn't fit on the street, right? Lanes are only 10 feet wide and the largest legal width on a car is 102 inch or 2.59 meters.

While I realize that 3m is a close aproximation, that's the widest legal limit and not the widest vehicle ever produced (the Third-Generation Cadillac Eldorado (1959-1966) at 96in or 2.43m)

Yes I do Draco... as you stated, I'm simply approximating and there's no need to nitpick what is simply meant to be a rough estimation.

Or do the meaning of the words "roughly speaking" not register.


If we were talking about a MBT (abrams that's over 3m wide) and we've seen footage of them going down streets as well... when you're a big heavily armored vehicle w/ car crushing power... things A. tend to get out of your way, or B. get crushed. It's not exactly uncommon for large heavily armored combat vehicles to ignore commercial size restrictions.

Also, interstate... Minimum lane width is 12 ft (3.62 m). Most state & local roads also use this size btw. So yes a 3m vehicle does fit most roads... it's just larger than a commercial vehicle should be. (then again citymaster is an armored APC pretty much sold only to megacorps and law enforcement).

And yet, I see Wide Load cargo Haulers all the time that take up a single lane and almost half of the lane to each side... and a Tank is definitely larger than 3 meters cross section from front and back... so it is possible to aim dead center (broadside) and miss by say 3 meters and STILL hit the side of a Tank... or a Large Freight Hauler, etc...

The "reality" of the scatter rules are a little damaged, but you know, even with the fixes available, they are still somewhat less deadly than real life, and this is a good thing for character survivability in my opinion...

Keep the Faith

Mind that 3 meters of scatter when using rockets is neigh impossible.

4d6 -1 per (net) hit. 4d6 averages to 14, and 11 (net) hits is pushing a dice pool of 33+ (!!!)

Or you could get lucky and roll below average on the scatter, say, a mere 9 meters of scatter, which you'd then need 6 net hits (or a dice pool of 18 more than the dodger).

So just to recap, what do people think the rules should be changed to?

How about 2d6, -1/Net Hit (Use an Airburst Link, why don't you), at that point all you generally need is a few hits on an average scatter and you are down to that "minimal scatter" you feel is so impossible using rockets... hell, even put on a moderate Sensor Seeker (say rating 2 or so)... helps even more...

It is even RAW... Go Figure...

And in RL, MRL's are not as accurate as your indivudual, shoulder fired anti-armor rocket... they are generally used for area saturation, not pinpoint accuracy, so I see no real need to modify anything (MRL's are generally far back from the theatre of operation, while the individual grunt is right there on the front lines... different weapons for different reasons, and all that)... the RAW provides adequate answers to satisfy MOST individuals... if you just use it that is....

Keep the Faith

Scatter uses pre-Anniversary Shadowrun 4 dice rolls.
Hits on the attack test do not affect scatter.
Scatter only occurs when the attack test Glitches

Attacker targets a character or location, and makes a single attack test.
Defenders in the blast area make a defense test against the attackers test.
Resolve as any other attack.

What do you mean by pre-Anniversary dice rolls?

Not according to the Anniversary Edition Rules that I am currently reading there Muspelheimr... would you like to clarify that statement a little bit for me? See Page 155-156 for the Rules for Determining Scatter (for both grenades and rockets/missiles)... No Where does it state that scatter is the result of an Attack Test Glitch...

Keep the Faith

He was responding to my request for a summary of suggested houserules.

Sorry Tyro, he may have been doing so, but the phrasing seems to indicate otherwise, at least to me....However, I could indeed be wrong about that...

Keep the Faith

2D6 scatter for rockets/missiles.

The Anniversary printing doubled Scatter values. Sometimes, this is done in the Net Hits modifiers. For most, however, it's double the dice rolled.

Which can be conveniently avoided with a Airburst Link... though the Net Hit Modifiers were indeed more preferable in SR4 (Pre Anniversary) and strained my Suspension of Disbelief much less...


That -4 Scatter/Net Hit was MUCH better than the increased Dice and -1/Net Hit... (For Rockets and Launcher employed Grenades)...

Keep the Faith

No, it can't - that one was doubled, too.

What are you talking about...

Use of an airburst link reduces the Scatter from as High as 4d6 down to 2d6... add in a few points of a sensor on the actual ordinance (which you can add to such things as rockets/missiles and conceiovably even grenades) and you now have something that really only needs a net hit or two to hit exactly where you want it to on average... you will still get some outlying edge results, ocassionally, but not very often...

Yes, I know that it went from 1d6 to 2d6, but really, it CAN be compensated for with just a little bit of nuyen expenditure... implying (or outright saying) that it can't, is a bit disengenuous don't you think?

Keep the Faith

Except Sensor ratings can only be used on Missiles.

And an Airburst can fire Grenades & Rockets - not Missiles.

Rules as Written



Funny thing is, the Rocket/Missile section claims that missiles fired with an Airburst reduce scatter to 2d6 - which cannot be done because, as written, an Airburst cannot fire missiles.




Edit:

So, let me get this straight... The response to the rules making a weapon nigh unusable in the game despite fairly high reliability in the real world is to apply future-tech upgrades? Why not just fix the broken rule?

Oh - here, some people even claim those rules are perfectly fine. Don't worry, that happend with the SR3 parachuting rules, too.

Personally, I'll go with this one:

Scatter happens only for Glitches (Net-Hits reduce Scatter without being lost)
Effects are like Indirect Combat Spells (Everyone in range gets it's regular Dodge, Net Hits, if any, increase Damage, Damage is resisted as normal)

Aside the scatter only happening for glitches (which I can understand why you use it for missiles) I've always assumed that a grenade worked just like an indirect combat spell, you choose a place, see where it hit, anyone on range that can dodge, try to and apply damage accordingly.

But that would be waaay too easy, wouldn't it? Shadowrun absolutly has to drag those randomizing rules like Starting Money and Scatter through every Edition - otherwise, it wouldn't be the same game, right?

It is my opinion that the scatter rules are kept, because it reduces the effectiveness of the weapon in question... if you used no scatter at all, the effectiveness of the weapon would be so good that characters would die even more than they do now... put someone in a small enough room say 8x10 and toss in 2 grenades... pretty much anyone in the room will end up dead... this is not fun... teh reaction rules and scatter allow some crazy things to happen... yes... This, I believe, is intentional... is it Annpying... sometimes, yes... can it be fixed using just the options presented in the book... sure... is it realistic... not totally.... but that is okay, it makes the game a little more survivable and that is okay...

I will put up with a little bit of tech upgrading to bring believability back in to the situation (as that tech must be available for a reason right?), but I am not all that sad that grenades/rockets/missiles are no longer as effective as they are in the real world (Which PreAnniversary Modeled slightly better in my opinion)...

@Muspellsheimr.... the contradictory evidence indicating missiles can use airburst becomes an interpretation at that point... yes, theree are 2 places that indiciate that you can either use it or not (the airburst link) for both Rockets and ZMissiles... At that point... you cannot argue that RAW prefers one over the other... as it has become ambiguous... now, the intent may prefer one over the other, but since I can indeed point to a place that says you can do it... my interpretation will work (even if it was not really the intent), and that interpretation plays okay, in my opinion...

You could also revert back to Basic SR4 Pre Anniversary Rules for Scatter... that also works... ... I did in fact indicate that there was indeed a difference between these rulesets... again, it is perfectly viable... I just prefer to use SR4A Anniversary for my Ruleset, which sometimes means that I make a compromise and go with a rule that may not model things that I believe should be different...

@Brazillion-Shinobi... That is a perfectly viable Houiserule... but will tend to make these weapons a little more deadly... which works... I have nothing against this houserule... just would not use it myself...

Keep the Faith

Punctuation marks are no pack animals.

So Sue Me...

Keep the Faith

Yeah, I feel like I'm playing a Japanese console RPG, with so many ellipses. Mr. Period would like to have a word with you:
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2002/10/11/

Use a single period instead of ellipses. It's almost always appropriate.

If you toss two grenades into a small room, yes, absolutely every person in the room should be dead. You should also expect an over-the-top law enforcement reaction to this choice. Action ---> consequences. If the players don't understand this, they deserve to have SWAT and HTR teams swarming all over them. This is ShadowRun, not Rambo the RPG.

Because it is ok to kill everyone in a room with 1 entire clip of ex-ex ammo but God forbid they throw two grenades inside?
I would agree that if by anything, the scatter rules are there to "protect" the players then the NPC's and yes, Shadowrun is a gritty game and violence is most of the time the answer (or the means) for everything, but it is better give the players a chance to escape instead of simply saying: "Rocks fall, everybody dies"

So its ok to lob grenades at the guy who has no dodge pool left and no one else gets a throw?

This is understandable to me...

Keep the Faith

The soloution to mystic granade magic. Is use them only in the surprise round. Now they can't be lobed back at you and no one can react to your exploding balls.

I take it you guys don't use chunky salsa at your table?

We definitely do... but the effect does you no good if you cannot actually get the grenade into the room...

Grenades in an Elevator... Priceless

Keep the Faith