Large point... I disagree heavily that you can use gymnastics w/ melee dodge and weapon skill. Mostly on sheer game balance terms as well as ambiguous wording.


Stop and think... what's the point of ever taking dodge unless you're a rigger/driver. Think of the implications if you allow it.

Gymnastics has cyber/bio which boosts it, not a lot similar for dodge.
The only area in which dodge applies and gymnastics doesn't is vehicle combat tests.
Maybe if you allow double dodge on melee defense, but not double gymnastics. Which still give it some use for non-combat types.

What's the downside to using gymnastics dodge at all?!
If it doesn't add w/ melee skill... then gymnastics dodge is always rea + gymnastics against all attackers ranged & melee... while dodge retains a minor advantage in allowing double dodge or dodge + melee in melee.


Dodge has always been problematic in 4e as if you had a melee combat skill you could pretty much substitute gymnastics. So much that I'd suggest house ruling it... (half gymnastics... add dodge to athletics group, etc).

Actually adding dodge to the athletics skill group would do quite nicely. Or add an awareness skill group with Perception, dodge and something else.

Yeah I have no idea what skills I'd add in that group.

Assensing/perception form a matched pair, but assensing is unusable to non-magical characters.

Maybe make a new skill. Streetwise. Sort of a global catchall knowledge skill for safehouses, gangs, finding local fences and shadow dealers. Always struck me that the local Though one of the things which makes characters unique is the unique contacts and knowledge they bring... (IE: he has contacts w/ the triads and knows how they operate... he doesn't). Though it can make things rough if the games scope expands beyond a local context.

Perception is one of those big skills new players often forget about, and putting 10 to 30 BP in a group like that wouldn't be a bad thing for a new player.

This man speaks truth. The first few sessions for my group were choruses of groans as they realized that, once again, they had all failed Perception checks and it was going to bite them. That skill got power-leveled quick. As the GM, I also eased up on the stealth enemies, so as not to be a complete jerk, but yeah. Learning Experience.

Ooh, I like that! Etiquette, maybe? But I don't suppose you can add skills of different attributes, huh? Although perception and Dodge already use different atts. Shadowing? Already in a group. Ah, Tracking!

Also already in a group - Outdoors (along with Navigation and Survival)

Sure you can. The survival group has different attributes. What to make that third skill though is a bit of a question. Most other skills are already in groups after all.

Most groups are built round 1 or 2 attributes, though several skills have uses with different attributes (using social skills to resist, quick drawing pistols).