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WalksWithWiFi
So, recently after the pc's asked an npc to scout out a building astrally, a question
popped into my mind.
How does a magician/spirit find their way on the astral?
example situation, Sammie asks mage to go scout out a building in Redmond, Mage is currently
in Tacoma. The Sammie gives the mage the physical address.
Can the magician find this place without physically going to the building, then scouting from just
outside.
Of course the npc in question has an issue with astrally projecting while not in a ward of some sort.

If there is some fluff i missed on this, please throw it my way.

Semerkhet
I have no fluff to reference, but I can tell you how I've handled it at my table.

For the mage in Tacoma, target building in Redmond situation. I ruled that the magician would have a very hard time finding a building based on a street address and verbal "turn here, turn there" instructions. Not impossible, but hard. Even harder if the magician is not familiar with the target area, less hard if they are familiar.

The way my players have dealt with this is by pinpointing the location via overhead satellite imagery. Letting the magician do the 2072 equivalent of fooling around with Google Earth/Maps for ten or fifteen minutes to become familiar with the terrain and buildings surrounding the target building. This doesn't make it an auto-success, but I've substantially reduced the penalty on the Intuition+Navigation Test to find the desired building astrally.
Draco18s
This is why they made i]maps.[/i]

Once you have an address you get some Google Map directions and a map with a nice blue line on it.

Start counting intersections (google streetview helps too: "here's what the turn looks like from street level").
nezumi
Precisely. You can navigate based on landmarks. If you conjured up a spirit prior, you can get the spirit to help guide you (since they have less trouble with astral navigation).

What sort of test do people normally use for 'finding' oneself (or your intended location)?
DireRadiant
You could always just go with the astral being sees all knows all finds all such that no mundane thing can possibly get away with being hidden from the astral being approach.
Ascalaphus
Well, some astral features resemble physical features. IR satellite imagery is probably very useful; it should somewhat mimic the spread of life across the surface, which is also well-seen on the astral plane.

Nearby buildings with astral security also function as landmarks; if you're trying to find Seattle, you probably home in on the Aztechnology pyramid until you close in on the city.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Feb 4 2010, 02:44 PM) *
Well, some astral features resemble physical features.


You can still see street signs and stop lights on the astral. You just can't read them.
WalksWithWiFi
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Feb 4 2010, 12:38 PM) *
You could always just go with the astral being sees all knows all finds all such that no mundane thing can possibly get away with being hidden from the astral being approach.


lol


thanks for all the input so far
Doc Byte
QUOTE (WalksWithWiFi @ Feb 4 2010, 08:04 PM) *
If there is some fluff i missed on this, please throw it my way.


I can't add any fluff but on the crunch side there's the 'navigation' skill. And yes, memorising a map / waypoints does help.
nezumi
Counting intersections is fine if you're only going a mile or two. But if you're going from Baltimore to DC, it gets a lot more complex. You would have to:
1) orient yourself (n/s/e/w)
2) Count intersections from a known landmark (which means identifying and finding the landmark, then counting).

And that doesn't even get into things like room numbers. If I say the mark's room is room 522 in the Nelson, on 8th st., it quickly becomes a crapshoot.

(Can elementals read?)
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Shadowrun 4 Anniversary p.192)
Movement for an astrally projecting magician is much quicker than
physical movement. In astral space, free of the concerns of the body,
the magician moves at the speed of thought. She simply imagines herself
at a place and her astral body travels there.
Any nearby destination
is reached in seconds. Mere minutes are required to cross great distances,
and in hours the magician can circle the globe.

Of course, the magician would have to know the place well enough to "imagine herself there". As others have said - Google Maps.
WalksWithWiFi
as far as i thought, elementals/spirits have the same issue any being in astral would have-
not being able to read print, but getting impressions from said print(possibly)with assensing.
Thats how i have been running it at least.
the Navigation skill or defaulting might be a good way to just make a quick call on it.
DireRadiant
Basically you need to come up with some way to map a correspondence between the astral and mundane locations. This is why mages often resort to eyeballing the target while physical first.

Some approaches that may work without physically knowing the place.
If another assensor has seen the physical location, they can relate the astral description to the mage.
There is the astral photograph technology, one of those photos might be enough to help find a location.
Ritual links may work. e.g. a part of an object linked to the mundane location may work.
Search for some other object that is know to be there, but would be easier to track. e.g. send a parcel with a blood sample there.
WalksWithWiFi
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Feb 4 2010, 01:42 PM) *
Basically you need to come up with some way to map a correspondence between the astral and mundane locations. This is why mages often resort to eyeballing the target while physical first.

Some approaches that may work without physically knowing the place.
If another assensor has seen the physical location, they can relate the astral description to the mage.
There is the astral photograph technology, one of those photos might be enough to help find a location.
Ritual links may work. e.g. a part of an object linked to the mundane location may work.
Search for some other object that is know to be there, but would be easier to track. e.g. send a parcel with a blood sample there.


i like a lot of this-
nezumi
QUOTE (WalksWithWiFi @ Feb 4 2010, 03:41 PM) *
as far as i thought, elementals/spirits have the same issue any being in astral would have-
not being able to read print, but getting impressions from said print(possibly)with assensing.


Except elementals can materialize (and projecting mages cannot).
DireRadiant
QUOTE (nezumi @ Feb 4 2010, 03:02 PM) *
Except elementals can materialize (and projecting mages cannot).


And we all know materialized spirits grow eyeballs.
WalksWithWiFi
QUOTE (nezumi @ Feb 4 2010, 02:02 PM) *
Except elementals can materialize (and projecting mages cannot).

but they are still dual natured, which means that they still see via astral, right?
Caadium
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Feb 4 2010, 12:42 PM) *
Basically you need to come up with some way to map a correspondence between the astral and mundane locations. This is why mages often resort to eyeballing the target while physical first.

Some approaches that may work without physically knowing the place.
If another assensor has seen the physical location, they can relate the astral description to the mage.
There is the astral photograph technology, one of those photos might be enough to help find a location.
Ritual links may work. e.g. a part of an object linked to the mundane location may work.
Search for some other object that is know to be there, but would be easier to track. e.g. send a parcel with a blood sample there.


This is slightly off topic, but not completely so please bear with me.

Taking into account Satellites and the astral photography technology, would it be possible for a company to create an Astral Google Earth? Obviously, given the costs involved in creating such a thing I'd guess it would be a fee based subscription service. To tie this into the thread, obviously something like this would be a viable solution to the OP.

So, does this seem like a viable product? Or have I just hit on the fun roots for a new couple of runs as competing magic based corps struggle to be the first?
Falconer
Actually, IF the street sam is there... use the search power and have a watcher locate him and lead you to him.
Also, you need to have assensed the street sam to communicate his unique aura to the spirit.

Otherwise I agree... astral is a little wierd when it comes to orienteering.


As far as spirits go... free spirits can't read AR displays and the like... and generally I'm of the view that spirits can't see normally only astral perception (even when materialized), unless they specifically get the low-light vision power. (look, a few of the spirits have it as an optional power). And it's a very cheap option for free spirits.

The current crop of authors/editors have chanted that tack maybe though.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Falconer @ Feb 4 2010, 09:25 PM) *
have a watcher locate him and lead you to him.


Lawl. Watcher spirits have 2 dice to do that with. XD
Falconer
I thought they put an optional rule in place for watchers to get more dice for use in the search power only.

Oh well, my local GM does that. Otherwise, watchers are completely useless... also any damage whatsoever disrupts them to prevent their use as attack dog packs as another house rule.

Generally if a watcher won't cut it... just summon a normal spirit on the fly for the task.
Semerkhet
QUOTE (nezumi @ Feb 4 2010, 01:35 PM) *
Precisely. You can navigate based on landmarks. If you conjured up a spirit prior, you can get the spirit to help guide you (since they have less trouble with astral navigation).

What sort of test do people normally use for 'finding' oneself (or your intended location)?


Most mages will have a decent Intuition, so even a single level in Navigation should give a workable dice pool. I'd even allow a Navigation(Astral) specialization. The mage in my group has the Astral Geography Knowledge Skill. I've been giving him a +1 to his DP to take that knowledge into account. Not precisely RAW, but I'm a big fan of FoRKs from Burning Wheel.
Neowulf
I can't remember, any reason someone couldn't stick a nutrient feed into a billboard and grow a layer of some hardy moss over the letters so the (weak) aura of said plants form letters in the astral? Even if the resolution is bad due to auras glowing instead of having defined borders like typeface.
I suspect atleast a couple businesses in any given area would do it as an advertising gimmick. "This here's Larry's Gourmet Stuffers, come visit with your body sometime!" Also some well meaning magic groups might do it to help astral travelers by cultivating messages on walls, and people who want some astral art to brag about might do it, even if they can't see it themselves.


Having a sign that points to certain businesses would help as landmarks, and I would suspect geek mages would map out all the astral art pieces they discover.
TheOOB
I was always under the impression that if the signs and stuff where big enough, you could read them. Anyways, if you get the general location(easy if you do a zoom-out zoom-in thing like an electronic map, a spirit with search can finish the job.
Muspellsheimr
As I quoted from the rules, a projecting magician can travel to anywhere they can "imagine" themselves being.

In other words, if they can picture themselves at a location (having viewed *an image of the location is easily sufficient), they can travel there in astral space - directions are not needed. The wording is vague enough that it can easily be justified that knowing where the location is (aka address) is sufficient, without even having viewed the location (digital or otherwise).


Navigation tests should be called for only when the magician is traveling somewhere they do not know the location of (only direction, for example) and have not seen previously (again, an image is sufficient).
Dragnar
Muspellsheimr is right, most of the discussion is moot. You don't need to actually "find your way". Astral entities travel at about 6000 km/h, so they don't actually "see" their surroundings anyways, because they're too fast. It doesn't matter if they'd recognize the streets if they would.
Dahrken
More accurately, they can travel *up to* such a speed, but nothing prevent them from taking their time and enjoy the travel.
Semerkhet
QUOTE (Dragnar @ Feb 5 2010, 05:39 AM) *
Muspellsheimr is right, most of the discussion is moot. You don't need to actually "find your way". Astral entities travel at about 6000 km/h, so they don't actually "see" their surroundings anyways, because they're too fast. It doesn't matter if they'd recognize the streets if they would.


Your choice. I chose to interpret that rule as meaning that a magician can imagine themselves in a place if they are familiar with it. I chose to rule that spending ten minutes with Google Earth (or equivalent) doesn't make a magician familiar enough with a location to just instantly travel there with no error. Magic has enough iWin buttons without me consistently ruling on ambiguous wordings in ways that make the magician's life even easier.
nezumi
So what test do you use for mages to find their way? What modifiers do you include?
Semerkhet
QUOTE (nezumi @ Feb 5 2010, 08:52 AM) *
So what test do you use for mages to find their way? What modifiers do you include?

As I mentioned before, I use a standard Intuition+Navigation Test. I give DP penalties if the character is unfamiliar with area they want to find. For context, the mage in my group has only been in Seattle for a couple months and is totally unfamiliar with 99% of the sprawl. So I usually start with a -5 DP penalty, making it difficult for him to succeed with no directions. On the other hand, I balance bonuses and penalties based on how good the directions they've been given are. Again, as I mentioned in an earlier post, studying high-resolution satellite (or streetview) imagery will reduce the penalty to perhaps -1. I increase the Threshold only if the location they're traveling to is particularly hard to find; i.e. just one crappy cinderblock house among millions in the slums of Lagos.

I would allow an "Astral" specialization for Navigation. A magician could spend a couple points for one level of Navigation and a couple more points for the Astral Specialization and end up with a DP of 7-8 for this test.

My intent is not to gimp fast Astral travel to locations they are familiar with, but to mildly put the brakes on the insta-scout abilities of magicians in totally unfamiliar terrain. Obviously YMMV.
nezumi
I don't play SR4, so I have no 'intuition+navigation test' to refer to. Is there anything else in that mechanic (aside from familiarity) that should be included?
Semerkhet
QUOTE (nezumi @ Feb 5 2010, 01:34 PM) *
I don't play SR4, so I have no 'intuition+navigation test' to refer to. Is there anything else in that mechanic (aside from familiarity) that should be included?

Hmm, from a SR3 perspective your only lever on difficulty is changing TN, correct? In that case, aside from familiarity (or lack thereof) I'd give bonuses for map study or really good instructions. If they had a very high resolution VR environment that took them to the place they were going and let them wander around an accurate virtual replica of the target, then I wouldn't even make them roll. I'd penalize if the target location was very hard to find by virtue of being lost among similar targets, lack of good landmarks, or out in the middle of wilderness. That's about it, I guess. What's the SR3 equivalent of a Navigation Test? It's like SR4 has completely erased my memory of SR3. wink.gif
nezumi
I don't think there is an SR3 equivalent of a navigation test (which is why I ask). I was wondering if there are penalties for prevalence of unusual structures and such.
Semerkhet
QUOTE (nezumi @ Feb 5 2010, 03:21 PM) *
I don't think there is an SR3 equivalent of a navigation test (which is why I ask). I was wondering if there are penalties for prevalence of unusual structures and such.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by prevalence of unusual structures. I'd guess it would be a bonus to have unusual structures in the area, in that they would make better landmarks to navigate by.

I haven't developed it any further than that because it's not really a big deal in my game. I've spent more time thinking about it in writing these posts than I ever did when making the rulings during a session. Anyway, I'm just giving you fair warning that this is all my opinion because, as has been pointed out, you could easily decide that the wording of the passage in the rules means that a magician could be given a street address, or shown a picture, and they unerringly travel to that location at 6,000 kph.
nezumi
QUOTE (Semerkhet @ Feb 5 2010, 04:30 PM) *
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by prevalence of unusual structures. I'd guess it would be a bonus to have unusual structures in the area, in that they would make better landmarks to navigate by.


Imagine these two situations. In one, you're looking for a set of coordinates on the strip in Las Vegas. Look it up on the map and figure out where it falls between the giant sphinx and the crashed spaceship. Compare this to coordinates in the middle of a pine forest. It's right between the one big pine tree, and another, fallen over pine tree. You mentioned SR4 has a test for this. I'm just wondering if there are any more rules they came up with that I can steal.
Professor Evil Overlord
For astral navigation under SR3 I'd have the player roll either a navigation or survival knowledge skill check (or default to INT) with a base target # of 4. I'd further allow the use of an appropriate knowledge skill as a complementary skill. So if the character had a skill like Tacoma astral space or gang turfs, they'd get extra dice (and as complementary dice, any successes count half toward the total). I'd modify the target # using the same table as vehicles to account for things like terrain (tight or restricted terrain being lots of identical buildings or a forest) or lighting (number of active auras). The GM should then set a base time he thinks the search should take and divide by the successes rolled.
Snow_Fox
yeah a great example is to try navigating via google earth with the labels turned off. those street level stuff are fun but can be tricky-or fun.
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