Once you have allocated dice to spell defense, can you use another free action to un-allocate them later in the same turn so you can use them on a spell, provided you haven't used them yet?

Free action to re-allocate. In short, yes.

It doesn't expressly forbid it, so I don't see why not. I don't see allocating Spell Defense as being that inflexible. Plus, if you couldn't change it on the fly, they wouldn't have had to specify that Spell Defense dice don't refresh until the next Combat Turn once used.

The book says you can re-allocate Spell Defense dice to other uses if they haven't yet been used for Spell Defense, as Herald indicates.

Since it is a Free Action to re-allocate Sorcery dice, the magicians in our campaign state that they routinely walk around with all Sorcery Dice allocated to Spell Defense for themselves and others nearby. That way it's available for defense if a spell comes in unexpectedly, and costs them almost nothing (just a Free Action) to use the Sorcery dice for something else during the Combat Turn.

As a house rule for our campaign, we allow magicians to re-allocate Sorcery Dice for free when dice pools refresh at the start of subsequent Combat Turns. Without this house rule, a magician who uses all his Sorcery for spellcasting, for example, couldn't have any Spell Defense on the next Combat Turn prior to his first action.

The complexity of the rules for Sorcery dice sometimes working like a Skill and sometimes like a Pool doesn't add much value to the game, in my opinion. Many GMs are happy using the following simplification: Spell Pool alone is used for Spell Defense, without limit; Sorcery works like any other Skill, using the full value of the Skill each time it is needed. This is essentially the 2nd Edition way of handling Sorcery, and I recommend it for everyone that isn't anal about learning and following the published rules.

You can still use the spell defense specialization with that house rule. It just requires a house sub-rule: dice for pure spell defense can be bought as a specialization of sorcery; apply all rules for specializations.

The problem there is that when the character raises Sorcery later, their spell defense dice mysteriously disappear.

I dunno, as a GM I have problems with the level of protection a reasonable grade initiate with shielding can offer against spells, especially if it is considered 'always on' when not allocated to spellcasting.

Initiate grade 6 renders you practically immune to spells, you and five mates, it's just a bit too much in my opinion. So I'm terribly anal about having PC's allocate shielding all of the time, and if they forget...

That's what I meant Dash.

How do you explain IC how they lose a point of defense?

"Ok, you spent karma, time, and money increasing your mastery of magic. Lose 1 defense die. Do not pass go."


It's not a huge problem, but it could cause some resentment from the player, IMO. Best to leave it out or find another solution.

Once they stop whining about the lost karma when they improve any other specialization, they should be fine with that. If you want to be nicer, let them take a spell defense skill that cannot exceed half their sorcery skill.

But when they improve other base skills, their specializations don't become worse. That'd be a pretty unique and strange effect. Your other solution is ok, but then every mage will have an extra defense die for 1 karma. Even ones with no interest in focusing on defense will go for that.

Anyway, I think all of these rules complicate things too much, which is what the original Spell-Pool-Only rule was trying to avoid.

If it was going to be a unique specialisation (taking your point Zazen, but just an idea) you could make it something like: The spell defense specialisation of Sorcery is not used as per normal specialisation rules. Instead, it is factored in when calculating spell pool for the purposes of spell defense. For allocating spell defense, the magicians spell pool is therefore Intelligence, Willpower, Magic Rating and Sorcery(spell defense) divided by three.

It won't add that much in terms of power, and is limited in scope, but it stops the specialisation depowering when the main skill gets above it, and gives you a bit of an edge for your karma which you will then keep until you decide to improve it. A skill at R3 would only give you +1 spell defense, but at 6 would give you +2. Depending on your other attributes you might push your pool up sooner, but you know what i mean. But as its a specialisation it won't be costing you that much to improve it if you don't buy it at chargen.

If you didn't want to make it as a unique specialisation, and decided to adopt the Single Pool method where sorcery doesn't count, then disallow the specialisation and give them another of their choosing or the karma back. They won't sniff at either of those options, I suspect. If they really don't want to lose the benefits, then you're going to have to work something out. How about, in that case, an edge of equal rating to the skill which allows some extra spell defense or even general spell pool?

Hold up a second... just trying to wrap my brain around some of these house rules... if sorcery acts like any other skill, doesn't that make mages kinda overpowered? If they get a reflex booster spell they can start lobbing 3 spells at full sorcery dice per turn? Just trying to clarify.

Sunday

um, they can do that already. casting a spell is a complex action. if you get more than one complex action in a turn, you can cast more than one spell in a turn. this house rule makes them massively underpowered, because it's now much harder to cast higher-force spells without taking drain. but no one will ever be able to cast a spell on them, so it's all okay!

in case it's not clear, i think the house rule is kinda silly.

I think the important difference is in treating SOrcery like any other skill.

If I have 2 actions and on my first action I use all my sorcery dice to cast a spell, I won't have any dice left to cast the second, right?

If sorcery is used as a constant number of dice it means every time I cast a spell I get my sorcery skill in dice and add some from my spell pool. The refreshing of the sorcery dice is what makes the huge difference, no?

Sunday

Its easy, in its own way.

When the mage acts, you toss all the sorcery dice and spell pool into one big wad of dice... the magic dice. Use different colored ones so you can tell which is which.

As he spends dice, or allocates, move them into the correct piles or what have you, to keep track of whats where.

Anything spent does NOT refresh until a new combat turn. Thus mages with many actions will have to spread their dice thinner if they want to cast every turn.

Reallocating dice is a free action IF theyre not spent yet. If its spent its gone.

Just make sure that you always have enough dice of the right color (base skill or pool) to do each action (like casting without using more pool than base skill for example).

Problem solved.

But dice used to cast a spell are not 'spent' in the same way as Pool dice, and so they do not need to be refreshed. They are always available.

Nope, thats the misconception. You *cant* just use sorcery every action to cast a spell. Therein lies the error most people make. Sorcery, once used, is out of commission like a pool, until a new combat turn. Maybe Ive totally misread something... but Im 99 percent sure and can go find pages if needed.

Please do!

I second that request

White Dwarf:

You are *almost* totally wrong.

What you are correct about is your understanding of when allocated dice refresh after being used. You are wrong in your assertion that spellcasting requires an allocation of dice.

Casting a spell is a complex action. Period. If you have multiple complex actions, you can cast multiple spells. There are only two reasons you would ever cast a spell at lower than your full sorcery skill:

1) if you have not only allocated but also used a greater number of spell defense dice in a given combat turn than you have in your spell pool.

2) if you want to cast two or more spells *simultaneously* (you must split sorcery/spell pool between them)

Thats it. Theres no reason not to allocate all of your sorcery/spell pool dice to spell defense on any turn you arent casting a spell, because its a free action to reclaim any unused dice on your next turn for spellcasting. As long as you never use more dice for spell defense than you have in your spell pool, your sorcery will remain constant for spellcasting purposes.

fortune, your house rule really messes with the way spellcasting works, in SR (whether that's good or bad is up to the group playing--yours apparently thinks it's okay; i don't). normally, it's pretty rare for a mage to allocate his entire spell to spell defense; some of it, he holds in reserve for spellcasting and spell drain. by forcing mages to always allocate all their SP to spell defense, you're doing two things: first, you're drastically decreasing the likelihood of a spell going off on mage, or any group with a mage in it; second, you're lowering the ability of mages to cast their more powerful (ie, high-drain) spells. the overall effect of this is to reduce the usefulness of combat magic fairly drastically; instead of rivalling and occasionally surpassing mundane weaponry in combat, magic is suddenly sub-par. mages are already the lunchmeat of combat situations (second only to deckers!); penalizing them like this seems harsh, to me.

The house rule does not force mages to use their spell pool only for defense. Rather, it limits them to allocating spell defense dice from their spell pool only. It's a world of difference.

...oh. misread.

Alright. I did some looking and was unable to find where it was explicitly stated. As I recall, another similar thread came upon that as the solution to a similar problem, and I made a mental check that it functioned as such. Going back through on my own I only found references for allocation, not refreshing. Relevent snippets provided, draw your own conclusions.

SR3, 174, under astral combat tests
"Note that using Sorcery in this manner (for melee on astral) *does* use up sorcery dice for the purposes of spell defense, spellcasting, etc" -- if it can be used up it must not refresh, since melee is a complex action it would be impossible to also cast a spell at the same time making their inclusion of spellcasting a moot point were it not as I stated.

SR3, 181, under preparation
"choose the number of sorcery dice allocated"; "vary the radius...done by withholding dice from the Sorcery test...withheld dice cannot be used for any other Sorcery test" -- simply point out that dice are allocated, and once allocated and used cannot be used elsewhere. Doesnt explicitly state they arent available again every action however.

SR3, 183, under spell defense
"Once used, Spell Defense dice are lost until the magician's next combat turn" -- again, sorcery applied here is lost until the next combat turn, as is spell pool.

Im pretty sure the thread that went over this before included another point or two, in reference to some other spell mechanics, and tried to keep it all working consistently. The result was that it was decided sorcery worked more like spell pool in a coherant system, or each set of dice was anomylous in an non uniform system. Feel free to shoot it down all you want, but is Sphynx or whoever it was that was also talking in that other thread wants to add anything dont hold back.

I think, White Dwarf, that you may be reading behind the lines too far. I'll agree that there are moments when the Sorcery skill acts like a pool and when it acts like a normal skill. I've always read it that for spellcasting, dispelling, and astral combat it acts like a skill but for spell defense it acts as a pool.

Therefore, dice allocated to spell defence do subtract from the total number of dice available to spellcasting or dispelling, but the dice that do remain for casting and dispelling refresh for every single use of the skill for those purposes.

Not to derail the conversation on the user of the sorcery skill, I wanted to sum up what I think the house rule for spell defense was above:

1) Spell Pool is used for spell defense only.
2) Sorcery skill is not used for spell defense.
3) A Spell Defense specialization of the Sorcery skill is effectively combined with dice from the spell pool for the purposes of spell defense.
4) Raising your offenseive capabilities in Sorcery without raising a specialization in defense alters the number of dice available for spell defense.

Do I have that right?

Well, Im not really reading into anything, just a possible interpretation on one of several "grey area" rules in SR. Above people said I was incorrect on the basis that sorcery dice werent allocated to cast a spell, and I found where SR3 says just that in black and white. Again, doesnt mean Im right, because as I said no where does it explicitly say that Sorcery dice used to cast a spell are not available again on your next action, but likewise it doesnt say they are. And if they are, its the only allocation of Sorcery that does refresh. So what you have is a skill that, if following normal skill rules (ie available each turn) then operates differently when allocated elsewhere; or, if used following pool rules (ie once used gone until refresh) then operates differently when allocated to spellcasting. Either way it is inconsistant in one of its possible applications. Which way you decide it goes is your biz, I was just pointing out that it *is* a grey area, since theres no explicit text pointing either way.

I could point out that SR3 never states that a character's Etiquette skill, or his Pistols skill refreshes either. Sorcery is a skill, and acts in all ways as a skill, except in the case of Spell Defence, where the different mechanics are clearly outlined.

I don't see any 'grey area'.

Yea thats the problem, it doesnt say one way or the other. Spell defense isnt the only allocation that doesnt refresh tho, astral combat and withholding dice for spell area are the same. Basically, every use except basic spell casting.

Again: no grey area. Every single case where your Sorcery skill acts differently than other skills is explicitly described. Using Sorcery for spellcasting and dispelling is not mentioned as behaving differently than other skills, so it does not. Thats seems pretty simple to me.

How about this: on a particular initiative pass, you are astrally percieving when you are attacked by a spirit in astral combat. Not having any melee skills, you decide to use sorcery to defend yourself. When your initiative pass comes around, you cant use sorcery to cast a spell at the spirit because youve already used sorcery to defend yourself in astral combat... so, instead, you decide to attack it in astral combat using sorcery (since the use of sorcery for astral combat does not hinder your ability to use it in other instances of astral combat)

That would make it rather unlike a normal skill, which is what White Dwarf was suggesting. It also doesn't make much sense to restrict Sorcery like that.

It seems to me like a simple oversight.

Here are two previous threads on the subject:
Spell Defense Dice refresh in Errata or FAQ?
Allocated Sorcery Dice

The Allocated Sorcery Dice thread quotes rules for several uses of Sorcery.