I have to say, of all the stuff bandied about on here, even my own, the sleep regulator for armed forces is by far the most logical thing presented, and it only took 2 pages . Its not really the 4 extra hours, in the field most infantry aren't getting much more than 4 hours of sleep regularly anyways, but the extra alertness and well being from getting more rest from the time available would be invaluable. And 5k or so is not too bad. The average infantryman in 2010 is usually carrying several thousand dollars of gear already for a gun, ammo, clips, LBE's, chem gear. . . Waging war is not cheap.

Checked it, they're 10k (I knew 5k seems like too little) which puts them in the same price range as wired reflexes. However the military can't reclaim the sleep regulator (Cultured bioware can't be second hand), and can't recycle the bioware like they could for the wired reflexes. And in truth you're looking at very similar advantages. Both allow for a greater combat ability on the field, faster decision making (Under the assumption that they would otherwise be sleep deprived), and basically the same general effects from a benefit analysis point of view. And the price is 1k difference but the bio lacks the reclaimability as I mentioned. That makes it an investment rather than a potential loan.

Also keep in mind that they can mass produce wired reflexes and send it out to their boot camps (or wherever) fairly cheaply compared to having to individualize the bioware for each recruit. There is more likely to be a bulk discount (Either through large orders or self production) for the cyber than for the bio.

Now, that said, one place that the sleep regulators would have a big bonus is if you need to get new troops moved out (relatively) quickly. 4 extra hours a day of training means that you cut about 1/3rd off the training time of recruits (After the customization time and surgery recovery of course, but as long as you save more than a week, you're spades), which can be a big advantage.

4 hours? Sleep regulator allows you to sleep 4 hours out of every 52 and be fine, shaving 12 hours off a recipients sleep time over the course of 2 days, making them require about 12 hours of sleep per week. That's some serious overtime.

Yeah, kind of like you only need 6 hours of sleep out of every 36. You could do it, but it would suck big time.


Meaning that someone with a sleep regulator sleeps 3 hours where a normal person sleeps 7. They still need to sleep daily, but they can pull long hauls better than someone without one.

I still do not believe the military would have any interest in reclaiming cyberware unless it was punitive. It's after market value is fractional, it could be used as a recruiting tool, and especially assuming bulk discounts the cost of cyberware is relatively inexpensive compared to exiting costs.

Also something i wanted to mention earlier, why do people believe the military would be RFID chiping it's cyber, say good by to stealth or deniable if you did that.

You realize that you can get almost 20 points worth of Essence Draining Cyberware with the right grades and mods, right (it is rather expensive, but you can indeed do it)? So actually running out of Essence will tend to be a rare thing...

You can recover Essence Lost through a Treatment known as Revitalization, recovering 0.1 Essence per Month... SO, It does indeed appear that you CAN recover Essence from an Essence Hole...

And I have never seen a CANON reference that equates unequivocally that Essence equals Soul... What some people may "believe" does not in fact make it Truth... Please Provide your sources...

Just Sayin'

Sure, they couldn't sell it for much, but they don't have to pay for the next recruit's wired reflexes, because boy howdy there they are, ready and waiting.

As for the RFID, I'm reasonably sure that any Hacker worth his commlink will be able to hack the crud out of an RFID chip of any kind.

Yeah, I somewhat agree with Lurker on the point about RFID tags and military gear, most people who have 'ware in the military are going to be special forces, and most special forces aren't going to want to be too strongly identifiable with their home country if their doing anything illicit. On the same tangent, I seriously doubt SR4 military bodies are going to even have short term recruits, say for 4 years or less. It seems that with the requisite training involved to make a person more competent than a drone at killing people, you'd have to spend a lot more time and effort than 4 years of service would compensate for. My guess would be that practically all military personell would be career guys, spending 8-10 years in service and keeping their 'ware afterwards. Unless the military is gonna start using skillwires, something that seems doubtful considering the risk of having non-soldiers on the battlefield, I'd guess that all operations normally served by men and women needing drugs, 'ware, or any other IP enhancement would instead be taken care of by drones and other machines, considering their cheapness and relative speed in production. Anyone spending less time would have to be a support personell, someone who wouldn't need cyber anyway. So basically I'd say that the debate on whether or not the military would remove cyber from short term soldiers after the duration of their term is moot, because everyone worth training for a term of 4 years is easily replaceable with a drone.

LOL wired reflexes for the military. I'm thinking something more along the line of skillwires. I mean, no soldier needs more than 2 skills at the same time, right?

I mean unless we're talking about special forces operators, it's a lot easier to slap skillwires and a commlink in a grunt than train him on parachuting, how to operate each weapon system, how to operate a military vehicle, etc. I mean for the low low cost of skillwires and a cranial bomb, you have one pretty loyal "drafted" soldier. If I were to guess, lethality in combat is at an incredibly high level at this point. Access to cutting edge militech isn't difficult to get, and as a result, soldiers in a combat zone would likely have a Normandyesque survival timer. I suspect that the prisons and barrens are regularly swept by press gangs with black buses for fresh meat. Hell, I would at least expect merc units to do that.

Now of course I am not talking about the cream of the crop soldiers here. I am thinking in terms of feudal armies at the moment. Knights were limited in their number primarily by the cost of fielding them. Well, what do you know, the cost of fielding a bio/cyber power armored walking death machine in a thunderbird is a hell of a lot higher than it is to get an untrained goon, stuff him with wires and sofware and telling him to march under pain of death. It seems reasonable that in an age of "Corporate Neo-feudalism" we would also see a Neo-feudal military structure.

It never ceases to amaze me just how many different ideas of "a (Shadowrun) modern military" there are out there.

Cause a professional will eat his lunch.

Skillwire are great tools and wonderful for filling gaps. I expect they will be very common and most squads will have at least one or two servicemen with them.

But the best you can do with a skill wire is rating 4.

A fully trained soldier is going to have at least rating 3 in his main skills and will likely have specialized. So he is already got a serious edge on your skillwire goon. Plus he can use edge. And during a war your professional is only going to get better.

Finally a Goon is always going to be only as good as his skill softs. Once your professional knows how the skills softs are programed, your skillwire goon is going to be VERY predicable while your professional can change his tactics to take be totally unpredictable to the skillwire goon.

Not to say that cannon folder has it uses, but loading them up with cyberware is not cost effective. I'd expect them to go the Virtual reality training programs, chemical and Hot Sim enhancements, and gear that can be collected from the wounded and dead and pass on to the fresh meat.

Yeah, I think 2 year enlistment terms would be a thing of the past.

Drones are wonderful, but today it takes combined arms and it would only be more so in the Sixth world.

Just like a pure tank force in a dense urban setting can be easy meat for proper equipped infantry, drones are only one part of the equation.

They can be hacked or jammed. What if it is misty and the other side is jamming and the Drones laser comm links can not get line of sight? You need someone right there to direct the drones.

You need some one to carry in the extra batteries and ammo. Add in someone with some skillwires and a toolkit and you can do in the field repairs.

What about guarding and supplying the supply and maintenance infrastructure for the drones?

If nothing else Sixth World Combined arms means you got to have magic talent on your side too.
And if you do then you need meat shields for the magic talent. OK it would be more like your magic talent needs some other live bodies out there to hide among, but you get my point.

Hell I bet someone would make a case that they shouldn't go the total drone route just to prevent a drone coup d'état. After all a drone is not sworn to defend the constitution. So all resupply and maintenance is going manual and likely integrated in to existing forces. Of course, the military brass will also be against the fully automated route just because it would seriously reduce the number of officer positions available.

I figure with drone, the military will be about half the size it is now. That provides a good balance between expendable firepower and enough troops to finish the job.

And as far as how common wired reflexes would be, well the marines would be near universal.

From Wiki on USMC
"Every Marine is a rifleman", a focus of Commandant Alfred M. Gray, Jr., emphasizing the infantry combat abilities of every Marine. All enlisted Marines, regardless of military specialization, receive training as a rifleman; all officers receive training as infantry platoon commanders.[22]

So that is going to be 200 thousand right there.

You think the Army is going to let the Jarheads have more cyber toys than them?

Ok, after a data search I found that an infantryman saw 240 hours of combat per year in the South Pacific Theater during WW II, while during the Vietnam War it was 5760 hours of combat per year due to the improved mobility given by helicopters. I couldn't find the amount of hours during the Gulf Wars, but I believe it was less than the Vietnam Wars (because of a more combined arms, like artillery, CAS, drones and mages). Anyway, let's say that a country goes to war. And let's say that the average Body rating of soldiers is 4 (I would put it even higher, since Orks and Trolls would be more common on military roles), this would give 8 hours of Cram per dose.
5760 hours of combat would be equivalent to 720 doses of Cram that would cost 7200 nuyen per year.
Ok, Wired Reflexes begins to look like a good investiment IF the country is waging a long war and a bloody, brutal, fast war like it was on Nam but during peace times, Cram is a better option. Besides, something so massive like giving WR to grunts can't be easily concealed and other countries would take notice of this and would start asking what the hell said country is preparing for.

Also, sleep regulator is good to everyone, not only soldiers. Seriously, corps and nations should consider seriously in giving this bio to everyone. Less sleep means more free time, more free time means more job time and recreation time. Either one boosts the economy (job time because you are working, recreation time because you are spending money on recreation).

Of course any professional would eat his lunch. But would a professional eat the lunch of the 20-30 goons with rocket launchers with the same price tag?

I understand the concept of Virtual Reality traning programs, chem enhancements etc, but lets think about it this way. A soldier on base is probably living a low lifestyle, at least in terms sof government costs. Assuming a very short list of skills taught at basic, we are talking about 8K nuyen for room and board. Plus the cost of instructors/ instruction equipment. You could slap skillwires into a grunt, douse him with some magic healing and throw him into combat probably within four hours. Hell, you could use skillwired doctors. I mean, it doesn't actually matter what the survival rate for implantaion is. Like I said, I would expect in the age of smartlinks, airburst grenade launchers, tac nets and drones for Grunt soldiers to have a very short life span, as in minutes on the line.

That and with the advent of the thunderbird as an offensive weapon, I would expect supply convoys to be easy pickings from the air. As for using Thunderbirds for resupply, that sounds great on paper, but runs into the problem of opportunity cost. I mean it would work and fast, but you are better of with a soldier who will deliver explosive force on target in a rapid manner with no resupply, i.e. suicide goon with a rocket launcher. I mean, while they put under and stuff you full of skillwires, why not just slot a kamikaze personafix btl chip or pump him full of drugs before sending him to die.

Let's break down cost:
Skillwires: 8K
Rocket Launcher w/ 2x HE: 2.5K
Guts & K-10 Cocktail: 1K

Total: 11.5K.

Like I said, this by no means is how the elan of the military would operate, but when you need somebody to destroy something, which is fairly practical in a war zone, this is pretty much the appropriate. I mean, you can get three of these guys for a suit of armor. One of these guys is comparable to parking someone in training. Hell, one of these guys is worth wired reflexes 1.

I question this assertion the military would actually perform the invasive operation of removing the cyberware from someone who received an honorable discharge. The medical costs and morale hit would make it prohibitively expensive to do so. It would be cheaper to simply inactivate it.

I'd say it would be the reverse. Use Cram on your raw conscripts and use cyberware on your active duty troops you need at their best whether it is peace time or war.

Plus running someone in combat for 72 hours straight with no sleep while dosed to the eyeballs with Cram is going to lead to some serious physical and mental health impacts. And once the battle is over they will have to take some drugs to come down from the Cram and get some sleep.

7200 Cram per year does not include the cost for addition. Plus once someone is addicted, then he can not use it any more without getting addicted again. Now you have lost all the training you have put in to them.

If wired reflexes is standard for your infantrymen then no one will think any thing of it.
Since you are already spending 100K to train an infantrymen, spending another 20 or 30K on cyberware is just the price for the "Signing bonus".

Plus you can always give your wired one troops Cram.

Shoot by that line of reasoning you have to start cybering your troops up as soon as your opponent starts cybering up his troops or you are going to be on the short end of the stick.

They would be using the cyberware as a signing bonus. Likely offering more cyberware for another four years.

And a lot of ex servicemen go in to law enforcement and emergency response.

Personally the idea of a fireman that can move twice as fast is something I'm all for.

Same goes for any thing that will reduced the died in the line of duty for our police.


Here is the number one reason I know this would happen

Someone will say the US Military is falling behind. We have a cybeware gap.

Congress will do some thing about.

Some congressmen will be getting that military cyberware contract for his district.

Congress is happy, the military is happy, the servicemen are happy, the companies supplying the cyberware are happy, and anyone looking to hire a vet with some enhancements is happy.

And the military defense complex rolls on.

One big happy family.

This is kinda what I was thinking. Why rip the cyber out of someone who served with an honorable record? Its costs more in surgery then the ware is worth, if their eyes or ears where enhanced you'll have to replace those, and all the nerves you're removing from their spine to get your wired back. It just would make no sense to reclaim it unless it was a punishment. As you say, it would be a nice incentive to know you're going to get some nice ware for a few years of dedicated service.

Ok, drugs.



Is this really the guy you want to stake your life on watching your back? Having addicts as squadmates is really not good for morale (Vietnam?). Check the Addict negative quality & section of rules. Unless you're a evil empire (which is possible; this is cyberpunk after all) having your soldiers strung out and twitching for their next fix is probably not a good idea.



This is Shadowrun, world of small countries who are surrounded by dangerous enemies (not to mention powerful corporations within their own borders). You tell the other countries to mind their own business (polite version), because every country is doing the exact same thing (or their version of it).

And why rip the cyber out? Because it is Military Grade Enhancements. You don't let that walk out the door for the same reason you don't let honorably discharged soldiers take home their fully automatic M/AR-whatevers. Sure, you -could- turn it off, but it's not hard to turn it back on. You either trust the person enough to leave it intact & functioning, or you don't trust him enough to leave it in his body. In between is just wishy-washy.

That said, I agree (and have said as much) that cyber is either a signing bonus, or you get to keep it if you go into the reserves (basically same difference). Being in the reserves does not stop you from persuing your goal as a cop/firefighter/bodyguard/whatever. And the military probably loves having lots of extra "just in case" soldiers who are twice as fast as a normal.

And never sign anyone up to your military again. Yep have 6 years of honorable service, they uninstall your spine, eyes and ears. I sure know I'd sign up to any military who would make me more then I am, only to take it all away once my agreed to term of service is up. I'm sorry but with a policy like that you'd never see another willing recruit who wasn't planning to be a career man/woman again.

Cyber RFID has a signal rating of 1... if that. You can't detect it from any reasonable distance away. Remember that RFID is passive; it only transmits a signal when it receives a command to do so. So there's no stealth issue.

Deniability is something for black ops only, and they probably have all their stuff sanitized. Line troops MUST declare themselves to be covered under Geneva. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if every RFID in a troop's issued gear doesn't have their name, rank, service number, and birthdate to comply with international regulations.

In truth (and speaking as a former Marine), the Marine Corps prides itself on doing more with less vis-a-vis the Army, with less an emphasis on gear and more on training. For example, Army M-16 qualifications take place at a max range of 300 yards, whereas the Marines qualify on a 500 yard range. The Army was excited over its high-tech OICW program, whereas the Marines withdrew their support because of the cost, weight, and the fact that rifle component was only required to have a 300 yard range.

In the sixth world, expect the UCAS and CAS Marines to carry on this tradition. If the Army uses skillwires to enhance their troops, expect the Marines to find some way to train a rifleman to defeat a wired troop (just knowing HOW to shoot doesn't mean you know how to shoot in combat). If the Army drops wired reflexes into their troops, the Marines will develop squad level tactics to counteract such things.

Makes sense to me, would also help identify bodies should the damage to the soft tissue be too extensive. The signal on military RFID would be broadcast less them 1 m, and exist for diagnostic and ID purposes. It might also contain other relevant medical information.

Wow, seriously? Ok then.

1. Eyes and ears aren't illegal, nor do they require permits.

2. Yup, they rip your spine out, leaving you a cripple. Totally what I'm saying. Thanks for making that clearer.

Glad we could sort that out.

Edit: Oh wait.

I would probably put it down to 20-50k a year depending on the field of what they would spend on cyberware/bioware. Also the average stat is 3 so getting wired reflexes 1 just about caps his greatest benefit. Even lonestar installs a cybersuite in its employees. Armies are trendings towards unconventional low intensity conflicts. The military would definitely use trauma dampers, platelet factories, sleep regulators fairly often. The implants are cheaper than replacing the soldier. Wired reflexes would probably be set to inactive until they get to a warzone. Turned on during war and off when back on base or training. The person would keep anything that has an R rating, but F would not be installed or would require removal/deactivation upon release. Though move by wire 1 makes more sense than wired reflexes since you get skillwire as well.

That said is look at the number of people who wash out of bootcamp let alone never make their full tour. They may not implant cyberware/bioware for the very reason it causes greater mental disorders. Suicides, aggression, hallucinations, etc all cause problems. If you use the optional rules about 1% of the cyberware cost per month this adds up pretty fast. Most soldiers may not be able to pay for their upkeep when they leave military service. Then you have buggy ware, slower healing, etc.

Overall, I would tailor the augmentations to depend on the job, the maintenance cost, and outlook of the soldier. Not every soldier is going to get a simrig, move by wire, etc.

The permit needed to keep your augmented spine is about $1100 bucks, assuming the army doesn't get some kind of bulk discount. The cost of (surgery to remove it + morale hit - return value ) would grossly exceed the cost of the permit to just let the guy keep it. I didn't say they'd leave you a cripple.

Three is an average on the stats.

I expect a young twenty something freshly though boot camp would have 4s or better.

The military would likely be going for low maintenance ware on the standard package. Stuff like cybereyes will have been around for a long time.

And for the more advance ware, well that would include a longer term of enlistment and signing up for reserve duty. And coming in for maintenance would just be part of the reserve duty.

I'd also expect Data Jacks to still be standard.

Nothing like jacking in to keep thinks nice and quiet.

Yeah, the post active duty permits for the cyberware would be part of the recruiting package as good for long as you kept a clean record with no felonies.

Instead of the GI Bill there would be the GI Ware permit.

I mean Wired reflexes I is nice and doubles your actions, but I would be more scared of someone with Muscle Replacement 3 or some one ODing on Cram.

Cybereyes and cyberears are probably one of the more common implants as well. Flare and bang compensation reduce the losses of shellshock and increase readiness. Image/sound and eye/ear recording units drastically reduce fog of war for the commanders, too.

It cracks me up that, in a time when many returning servicemen are being tagged as "PTSD possibilities" and are losing their gun and adoption and foster parenting rights (among others) because of it...folks think that sixty years in the future, when the world's even more litigious and paranoid, they're going to let folks just wander out at the end of their service loaded down with combat-grade cyberware.

It cracks me up that you think people would ever enter the service and have essence eating ware shoved into their bodies knowing they will lose the ware when they leave, but keep the gaping hole in their soul.

Well, I'm checking out the rules for addiction now.. Cram would probably be a physical addiction, not mental; that gives a Body + Willpower [2 for stimulants] test to resist addiction. Given a typical soldier, I'd assume Body 4, Willpower 3. Body might be higher, but stress could also make the Willpower lower. The chance for a failure on the test is (2/3)^7 + ((2/3)^6)*(1/3) = 0.263374486, or 26.3%

The chance to make the test is 73.3%; but what about the chance of making it through ten consecutive tests? 0.736625514
^10 = 0.047040028 = 4.7%

What about 30 times (the dosage needed for WWII)? 0.736625514^30 = 0.000104088 = 0.01% chance of making it through WWI without failing a test.

My computer doesn't do the required degree of precision to get an answer > 0 for Vietnam.

Keep in mind that every time your addiction threshold increases (including from nothing to mild, I assume), your tolerance increases, and your dose needs to be doubled.

Some thing no one has mentioned is, we all think it is normal to get a bunch of cyberware. The general public may not see it as normal. I have a feeling cyberware may be seen like plastic surgery today. Their will be people who will get cyberware to replace broken, damaged or lost limbs and organs, but their will be people getting it for other reasons too.

Just because cyberware may seem like it makes a lot of sense for combat solders to have, politicians may really think it silly elective surgery that is perceived as cosmetic, freakish, or fetish in nature, and decide not to fund such cyberware.

Data jacks may be common among office an tech type people, but if your job isn't in a office you may have no need of one.

Cybereyes although not uncommon, the most people do not want to go getting their eye rip out. Most of the people who have them, are likely to middle class people who do not want to ware glasses. People who drive or pilot vehicles for a living may even get low light and flare compensation added to their eyes, but most people will find it unnecessary, and people who get cameras in their eyes might be thought of as perverse voyeurs.

Many contact sport athletes will most likely have bone lacing, depending on league rules. So your ex-college foot ball player might have some impressive body ware even thou he now flips burgers.

Move by wire, reflex enhancers and wired reflexes, may make you move faster, they also make you jumpy, and twitchy. Making you look like you main line coffee. Added to how invasive these are ton install and not much real use to most every day people they are some of the least likely ware you will see.

I maintain that it is the invasiveness more than anything that will prevent the military from providing general-issue Wired Reflexes (well, in addition the brass and politicians would probably have the same argument going on here about what to do post-discharge). I don't see the military putting anything more than 0.5 essence into troops at a shot ("Minor Surgery"), though anything 0.2 or less would be totally fair game ("Superficial Surgery" aka outpatient).

Idly, don't wired reflexes and reflex enhancers have DNI triggers? IE, you can turn them on and off so you aren't jumpy and twitchy all the time?

You're assuming that Joe Citizen (or better yet, Joe Sinless) is aware of and understands the relationship between augmentation and Essence. Essence is a game mechanic. Is there any fluff that indicates that the menu of mods at the local Body Clinic lists the Essence Cost™ next to each mod? I imagine there is an understanding in the fictional SR medical community that implanting too much 'ware causes physiological and psychological problems, but we shouldn't assume that they have our precise knowledge of the game mechanics. Extrapolate that ambiguity out to the notoriously misinformed general populace and I don't believe armed forces would have any trouble playing up the benefits and downplaying the negatives. You can hide an awful lot in the fine print, as anyone who has gone through the recruiting process can tell you.

Yes, but going for the UCAS and CAS militaries only here:

Informed Consent. If the docs know implanting cyberware can effect things like it seems generally known to the medical populace in SR...They have to explain that. In layman's terms. Before doing surgery in all but emergency situations.

To do otherwise really risks your medical license.

I think I mentioned this in another post they may not know about essence as we know about it, but they do know a body can only have so much cyberware before there are ill results from it.

But here's the problem.

My quick read of the rules and such tells me that the line is different for each person before ill effects result.

Some people can only take an essence point worth of cyber before problems crop up, some can take 5 points before looking at cyberpsychosis. Some can edge towards 6 points of cyber without a problem.

There seems no way to tell before implantation where a given person's line is.

This is not good.

In medical terms, this means there is functionally no standard of care. No bright line "This is how much cyber a person can take without issue".

It makes every cyber implantation effectively an experimental procedure.

Under such circumstances, corps may get away with implanting their black ops folks with cyber, as may nations.

But there is no way you could get Joe Soldier or Joe Citizen to get more than a minimal amount of cyber. It turns every implantation subject into a guinea pig. Nobody would want to be a guinea pig like that.

In short, well. The writers could do with clearing this up...Because something doesn't work. Either they can figure out where the lines are, or there's no way cyber becomes as mass-market as they posit.

Tell that to the hundreds of thousands of veterans of the first Gulf War who were compelled to sign release waivers and given experimental and unapproved drugs that were supposed to protect them from chemical and biological weapons. Sure, the Congress found out afterward and had some stern words but I'm sure our military would do something like that again if they felt it necessary. Take that mindset into the dystopia of Shadowrun where there is even less accountability to the public and your argument is weakened.

Move-by-wire might make you twitchy, but since when does Wired Reflexes make you look like you mainline coffee? I'd imagine it would probably take some getting used to at first, but after training with it for a while you'd probably get used to it. Wired Reflexes would make the world slow down around you, to half or a third of the speed, I can't imagine someone not thinking that was cool, especially considering that it can be turned off and on at will. Let's face it, cyberware gives you super powers. Super strength, enhanced reflexes, weapons, armor, toughness, enhanced senses, you might still need to buy a jet pack if you want to fly, but cyberware makes you superman, and we all know how well normal people fight against superman. Every person here has made a 'running character who used Wired Reflexes, and cyberarms, and all the other super enhancements that a truly cybered character benefits from, how many mooks with *chuckle* combat drugs could that character take out without taking a Stun? Do you really think the UCAS military would field basic soldiers against the real monsters that cybermen are? I could imagine some third world country outfitting their men with sleep regulators and Cram because their budget's too low to support anything better, but despite the losses that the UCAS and the CAS have suffered in recent years, they still have a military budget that makes all the humanitarian efforts out there cry. The simple fact of the matter is, no matter what the ethical implications are of heavily cybering your combat forces, 100 soldiers with regulation guns, a dose of Cram, and data jacks, aren't going to be able to stand against 1 decently equipped streetsam. Basic grunts won't work in the military of 2070 because they're about as fragile as eggs and can't dodge worth a damn, and skillwires can't teach tactics or when not to piss your pants in fear. The reason I said that drones would be the only thing on the battlefield is because the people on the battlefield would have to be monsters in order to be able to survive, which they can be with enough cyberware.

Um. Formatting, please. At least create some paragraphs, Patrick. Please.

On to Semerkhet: It depends heavily on the environment. In the SR world, General War is pretty unlikely for the UCAS. Relations between the UCAS and CAS are posited to be peaceful, if not perfect. Relations between the UCAS and NAN states are said by canon to be amicable, at least.

In short, it's peacetime. Maybe Cold War, but peacetime. In such an environment, I see broader concerns certainly becoming an issue.

For combat drugs, that means the problem of post-drug issues, which would make them unlikely.

For cyberware: Again. It depends on whether the medical community can predict the limits of implantation and predict who'd be a good candidate for implantation. If they can, I don't see cyberware being ordered or required (Halley's Comet did, IIRC, produce some unexpectated cases of people gaining Magical ability, and they'd be cognizant of that possibly happening again), but I do see it as being available. You wouldn't take it out at ETS - your honorable discharge would in effect be your permit to possess said cyberware. In exchange, cybered enlisted personnel would be like officers are today - you can resign your commission, but absent that you never stop being an officer even when you exit the service, as I understand it - you're just not on the Active List, and are subject to recall up to a certain age.

This goes double for bioware, I'd think, since you can't turn it off.

Yeah, because the military never puts anything bad into their soldiers right now, right? That the soldiers don't explicitly understand, willingly (and without any pressure) consent to, and completely grasp the long-term effects and ramifications of?

Critias: I'm not sure it depends on the soldier at issue.

It depends on Congress and the results of lobbying, really.

And public policy isn't so simple to work out, since on an issue like this the lobbyists would really cancel each other out.

On the one hand: Yes, cyberware gives immsense benefits. BUT on the other hand, latent awakening is not unknown...And indeed happened en masse in 2061 to people...So it's not an open and shut case.

On the other: The UCAS is not at war with anyone. The CAS may be, but the UCAS ain't, and I guarantee you this would depend on the country. That being the case, even the military would be pressed to deal with post-service issues.

Unless if a person is awakened or is a technomancer, most people can lose 5 essence with out any effects.

Their are some things that will lower essence other than bioware and cyberware, like spending too much time around toxic areas, being infected, and addictions to sims sand drugs all lower essence in people.

I believe that any good cyberdoc would have training to recognize that line. Street docs, unethical, overworked or poorly trained docs may not see or pay attention to that line.

Their is also the time constraint of getting cyberware as well. Just think about the amount of time it would take to implant every one who enlisted, and the recovery time from the surgery.

Example Naval Station Great Lakes which trains all the naval sailors in the US currently about trains 50,000 sailors a year, so we could estimate in 2070's they would train around 25,000 sailors a year do to the new size of the nation. Around 480 sailors would finish training in a week. Lets say getting a datajack take around 4 hours to get, the average naval cyber doc is able to do implant 2 sailors a day. It would take a small battalion of 240 cyberdocs working 7 days a week just doing datajacks to keep up. I can not think of a worse to waste resources.

That's quite a lot of unsupported speculation. This is science fiction we're talking about. A datajack is one of the most routine cyber-implants in SR. It could just as easily be one cyberdoc overseeing a clinic full of autodocs implanting fifty soldiers at a time. Is my scenario any more unlikely than yours?

Lone Star SWAT Suite (Per AUGMENTATION (cause I'm slightly retarded) pg 48)
~This cyberware suite constitutes the standard cyberware load-out for members of Lone Star SWAT teams. Similar cyberware packages have been developed for members of other law enforcement corporations of military units (such as Knight Errant, the UCAS Army, or MET2000). The Lone Star SWAT suite consists of:
- TrumanTech SunFire A flare compensation, thermographic vision, and smartlink eye modifications
- Biogene TacBone RP plastic bone lacing
- Transys Livewire wired reflexes (Rating 1)

Essence cost 2.52 Cost 16,875 Nuyen.
Alphaware Watchman version Essence cost 2.02 cost 33,750 Nuyen

Game, set, match. Also, I believe it was mentioned in an earlier edition book... perhaps Fields of Fire? That ex-military have their cyberware deactivated or tuned down, not removed. (And I'm sure there are plenty of Street Docs willing to reactivate them for a price...)

Nicely done.

Augmentation has rules for the amount of time necessary to surgeries. Datajack is quite simple and fast. But Wired Reflexes is a VERY complex surgery that takes almost all working day of a doctor and takes a lot of time to heal. AFB right now, but I'll check as soon as I get home.

Nowhere does it say how many folks in the UCAS Army get the package, though, or what's done with it when they muster out. The package exists, sure -- but the SWAT equivalent would still be top-end guys, not every single infantryman that rolls through.