The question has come up as to just how much does wired reflexes make you stand out.

I figure the military would not turn down a force multiplier like wired reflexes which cost a faction of what it cost to train a new recruit.
And they are unlikely to remove them especially if the veteran is going in to the reserves.


Just to get an idea how common they are compared to the general population, I took a look at active duty and veterans in the US as of 2005.

As of 2005 there were 24 million veterans in the United States out of a population of 300 million. The US military has roughly 2 million active duty service men and women.

So that is 1 vet in 12.

2 million of them are women so in the male population it is more like 1 in 6 of are veterans.



To cover the break down between Infantry troops and the rest of the military, the US Navy is .35 million, the US Air Force is .35, US Coast Guard is .041, and the US Marine Corp is .2 million. That puts the US Army plus Marine Corp at around 1.3 million.

If half could be considered line troops needing wire reflexes then that would come out to around .65 million or about 1/3.

So 1 out of 18 men in the USA would have wired reflexes provided by Uncle Sam or some corporation assuming everything stays the same.

And a lot of the remaining service men would have either serious headware, skill wires, and or Vehicle Control Rigs and the like.


If you are running a couple of hundred people through a check point an hours that is going to be a half dozen active servicemen/vets with wired reflexes.

Certainly worth a second look, but pretty common none the less.

And that leaves out any one who might have that type of cyberware due to an accident, being a part of a pro sport's team, or just a fireman or police officer looking to increase his survivability.

do not forget that there are a drug out there that give similar benefits to level 1 wired reflexes.

heck, fighter pilots are given stimulants (what kind depends on the nation) for longer flights.

and i suspect some are not wired but instead adepts (as i think adepts, at least low level ones, are more common then a mage).

I've always been of the opinion that the militaries of the Sixth World don't cyber up every Joe and Jane GI that enlists and makes it through infantry school. Its not even a question of money, but one of commitment... and competition. 11K Nuyen for Wired Reflexes 1 may not seem like a lot, but its the principal of the thing. The UCAS government (or CAS, or what have you) aren't going to put in a valuable piece of cyberware without getting their money's worth back many times over... especially when a piece of gear like that makes one eminently more employable in the corporate world. Not only that, you are essentially replacing a full 1/3rd of your natural body...

Look at the military today. Virtually any job with complex and/or expensive training typically requires a longer enlistment period. Sure, the Army will sign you for 2 years active duty, but if you want to learn another language or have a security clearance, you'd better be ready to sign for 4-6 years minimum. A buddy of mine is in the Navy as a Chinese Linguist, and he had to sign a 6 year contract. When I joined 12 years ago, it was only 5.

So what does this mean? Well, just like everything else in the military, they probably incentivize it. I'm sure Officers in certain fields get appropriate, basic levels of cyber right out of their job school. I can see the military sinking the money for Reaction Enhancers, Wired I, or even Wired II... after all, in order to properly lead, Officers need to be able to fully assess a critical situation, and I can see cyberware like this doing that.

Enlisted, on the other hand, probably don't get a damn thing on their first 4 year hitch. Maybe basic cybereyes or a datajack as special incentives for some... but I doubt the military is going to give up much without something in return. If they wanted to be really ruthless about it, maybe they would implant Wired Reflexes in, with the full intention on removing it when the enlistment is up. In order to cover the cost of the procedure, they would dock the servicemember's pay "x" dollars for "y" months. If they end up reenlisting, they get all the money back, with interest, and get to keep the ware. Or, Re-enlistment probably carries the option for lump-sum bonus pay or cyberware. I could see the military wanting to invest in some job-applicable cyberware for a 2nd-termer. Such a person would be an NCO and carry leadership responsibilities for which quicker speed of action would benefit. Plus, investing in your people means they're more likely to make a career out of it.

Note that this is just for rank and file infantry folks. Special Forces types probably get cybered (or probably bioed, or initiated if their awakened) to the gills once they complete their indoc and initial training, but are expected to make a career out of it.

First term enlisteds probably don't get things like Vehicle Control Rigs, either. I'm personally of the opinion that T-bird jocks, like pilots, are officers, and Drone Riggers in the military are probably warrant officers. Motor T guys probably learn to drive the old fashioned way... without AR.

I would expect that just as the military doesn't let veterans take home their military-issue weapons, they would hesitate to send veterans back into civilian life with what can only be considered a combat modification. To deal with that I think the military would either rely more heavily on combat drugs or come up with a way to disable the reflex augmentation upon discharge. In SR4 Wired Reflexes is turned on and off via wireless or DNI. I would think it would be pretty simple to leave the augmentation in place and merely remove the ability for the veteran to activate it. Of course there would be plenty of ways to get around that deactivation, but for most people planning on going back to a quiet civilian life and not planning on being criminals or shadowrunners, they wouldn't care and would never try get around the disabled interface.

I think this could be a good story background to resolve in the first few sessions of a new character as they attempt to find someone to hack and/or perform surgery to reactivate their military augmentations.

I think I saw somewhere a statistic (but we all know what statistics mean, so forwarned) that said that it took 10 people in reserve/logistics to support 1 person in the field (or line troop? Makes a difference in this case). Honestly, between bootcamp, staff sergeants, cooks, blah blah blah, it seems reasonable, especially if we put it into the future with cyberdocs, riggers, deckers, and what have you.

Anyway, I've thought much the same thing. Most "line troops" are probably going to have Wired I. They can opt out, but it will make them a support troop, a reserve, or at least second string. If you agree to Wired, you get a bonus (woot military bonuses). And it's more than "1/3" of your body; you know the military is pulling the Wired out of people at the end of their tour, so many (if not most?) Wireds going into new recruits is Second Hand 'ware.

But as just mentioned, I assume that, unless you go into the reserves, they pull the Wired out of you. A good trade fo the military; people go in for the boost it will give them in civilian life, and the military gets almost automatic reserve troops for another 4+ years min.

Alot like mages though, who are concentrated in many lines of work that PCs will see (so they seem alot more common), most of the military kids will be beat cops, metroplex guards, chromed cops, reserve troops, or pretty decently paid corp sec. They aren't go smo down at the Stuffer Shack (alot of the time; there are homless Rambo examples). At least it gives a decent reason to occasionally boost the opposition up.

I love the cheap cyber examples. +1 Str+Dex: 5,000k. +1 Imp+Bal armor: 5,000k. +1 IP: 10,000k. x1.2 for Essence, x.5 for cost, and you have some pretty affordable Street Sams which you can conveniently throw at players without to much fuss about stacking the cards. (I didn't look up costs; I'm not near my books, and I'm about to run out the door.)

Why would you load officers up with Cyberware, officers outside of field grade infantry don't fight. I can certainly see some cyberware for them especially datajacks and especially attention co-processors but wired reflexes doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

It is quite possible that cyberware would be offered as an inducement for a longer hitch, for max effectiveness it'd probly be implanted on the first five year hitch. I can also see the possibility of them turning the ware off but it see it as doubtfull, the presumption would be those that leave honorably arn't going to be problem cases and the ones that will be problem cases nothing short of surgical removal will stop them from doing so.

I can see the recruiting posters now. "Sign up, we won't just give you money for college, we'll make you a wired god."

Seeing as installing cyberware permanently damages your soul and your ability to receive medical care, it's unlike that people will sign up for wired reflexes unless they get them at the end.

Why should anyone except mages and the religious give a damn about the sanctity of their soul? And what part of having a low essence makes it harder to receive medical care? Most hospitals aren't going to have mages on their employ if that's what your talking about. I'd imagine most soldiers who want to join the military for whatever reason would want Wired Reflexes to give themselves a better chance of survival in a warzone, even if they lose it after being decomissioned. Also, I think you guys are right about the commonality of Wired Reflexes. Its got an R availability for a reason, so long as you have a military license to have the reflexes, no ones going to give you a second glance.

First point: Cyberware doesn't damage your soul Essence rating != soul. If your not a magic user and you don't drop below the magic number cyberware does nothing but good things. Second point: It only affects your ability to be magically healed which is the rarity not the norm.

So in short, for your average non magical person (which is the bulk of the population) cyberware is pretty much awesome.

Damn i get tired of all the Cyber hate that's creeped into the setting it's a good thing that magic costs so much to balance it's zero drawback...oh wait it doesnt.

Final parting shot: What makes you think the sort of person signing up to kill people and break their stuff is overly concerned with their soul.

Of course, you make some basic assumptions...
That a US army already looking to replace groundtroops with drone units would need/want a lot of troops in the future.
That any nation would actually afford lots of troops.
That all the troops would be given Wired Reflexes.

Considering that armies rarely let soldiers keep the equipment they use, why would you assume that they would be able to keep their 'ware ??
That's a standard incentive to keep them in the service - want to leave ?? return your legs/arms/optics/etc.

In current warfare, being able to shoot more frequently rarely has much effect on combat effectiveness - intelligence and tactics are much more useful.

And why the mention of women - doesn't the US have "veteran" women soldiers ??

Until recently, women in the US milirary were not allowed to serve in combat roles period.
It has been changing slowly, from what I hear, but, in general, most women are in the
Support Fields, not Combat Arms

You know you actually die if you run out of essence right? And there is no way to get it back? Essence is also a metaphysical concept that has strong parallels to the western concept of soul - consider why being implanted with a bug spirit or whatever is bad. If you have all your memories and your personality, you're not 'dead' unless you regard your essence as your 'soul'

In the setting, it's canon that your essence is equivalent to soul - it is certainly regarded so by people.

The nothing but good things remark is just a red herring - we're talking about the military pulling it out afterwards.

Secondly: Why wouldn't most hospitals have someone in the ER who can cast heal? 1/100 people are magically active, there are lots of people in the barrens, magic stacks with medical care no problems and just getting a heal on someone is quick easy treatment that will stablise them until the medics get to it, dramatically improving trauma survival. Plus as you can get by with a street kid with minimal training rather than a doctor with years of training, you can pay less money.

1. "And there is no way to get it back?" There are medical treatments that allow you to recover Essence. (Which is wierd if Essence = Soul.)

2. "You know you actually die if you run out of essence right?" So Essence is your bodies tolerance to invasive procedures that permanently/dramatically modify you. Why "soul?"

3. "In the setting, it's canon that your essence is equivalent to soul." Quote?


Anyway, back to the subject. I think that Wired would be useful for Officers, though not as useful. An extra IP allows you to think twice as fast ("Juicer mode"). It's far from essential though, because Officers can just have comlinks + trodes, and when stuff gets hectic, turn it on, go Cold/Hot sim, and have plenty of time to think things out.

And why would the military let you keep your 'ware? As someone mentioned, you have to give back your guns and other equipment when you leave the service; why should this be different? Sign up for longer, and/or sign up for a good 4+ (or 8+) reserve contract, and you keep your 'ware. The military gets to keep a source of backup Wired fighters (it's a bad world internationally, after all), the kids get "free" ware which puts them shoulders above most others in security/police work/bodyguarding/etc etc, and the corps/economy get productive members of society.

I think they only implant Wired in front line fighters (and a few others), and it's likely optional (either a requirement for front line fighters, or you get a signing bonus), but it's only 10K market, and the military either gets to recycle used 'ware, or it's only 5k (wholesale) over the course of min 6 year signup. Less than 1k a year? That's good investment for the military.

I laugh at "cyber hate creep" in the latest edition. Augmentation had all sorts of wacky new shit in it, for the cyber types. In fact, there's been discussion all over the place in 4e about cyber trendsetters and how common it is to be augmented. The tone of it came off as, "if you're not cybered, you're not realizing your potential." Heck, I'd say if anything its the reverse; Shadowrun has slowly evolved towards transhumanism.

Fact of the matter is, it's so easy to get augmented in the 70s that it isn't funny. You can pop off to the mall on your hour lunch break and come back with a new pair of eyes or ears, color coded to match your outfit that day. Sex changes can be performed in little more than 24 hours.

But that's an entirely different subject. The subject at hand is the military and cyber. I don't think you could expect grunts and new recruits to be sporting the latest in wired reflexes, but the older guys in the more specialized fighting sectors? Definitely. We can always assume special forces like the SEALs and Marines are wired, but I bet your career soldiers that are staying in the fighting ranks would probably upgrade to 'em at some point.

Agreed, fresh recruits aren't likely to have it, but I'd imagine that all of them would want it. I could certainly see the military creating some sort of program to let them get it. Perhaps a 'we give you the wear and take it out of your paycheck till you've paid it off' deal, so while the government wouldn't be providing it persay, they would make it fairly easy for a recruit to get. It could also be a standard issue thing just like a gun and bullets. Second hand basic grade of course, taken strait from the last guy that died/left the military.

I'd say by the '70s cybe has become cheap enough that wired 1, a radio, and cyber eyes with a smartlink would be pretty close to standard issue to any military with a budget. Even in the early '50s (SR1) mercs, many of whom likely had a military background had the above IIRC. Yes, mercs might have better gear, but I'd expect in 20 years the common grunts would have caught up to at least that level. They actually used to have a former military officer archetype, which had a smartlink and a datajack IIRC.

As far as the question of how many veterans are walking around the mall with Wired 1, it's important to remember that 6th World militaries aren't going to be as manpower intensive as modern ones. Drone vehicles, spirits, and cyberwarfare would be major elements on the 6th World battlefield, along with things like cruise missiles (which are sadly lacking in ARS). That reduces the need for manpower, and then a lot of your veterans are going to be hackers and riggers.

So, 1st World powers would field much smaller numbers of troops. But the infantry they do field will be, compared to modern armies, disproportionately made up of special operations troops who will be heavily modified and more highly trained.

I also think there would be fewer veterans in civilian life. The 6th World offers a lot of job opportunities in national and corporate militaries, paramilitiaries, security outfits, police, and criminal operations for someone with ceramic bones, enhanced reflexes, and a smartgun, so why get out of the business you know when the business is so profitable? (And then, of course, the business kills, meaning there are a smaller number of survivors looking to retire.)

Don't forget though, that just because they aren't retired doesn't mean they don't go places. What the OP is getting at is that it wouldn't be very uncommon for someone walking through a guard post to have wired reflexes. OP mentioned only retired military, but there is no reason active wouldn't have to walk through those points as well. They aren't on the job 24/7 after all.

So, I think the point being made here (and a valid one) is that the corp security team isn't going to go crazy just because someone has wired reflexes. Just flash a 'police/fire department/military/ex military/sports player/whatever' SIN and they'll pass it off as nothing big.

In addition, between all the national breakups there are no real "superpowers" left outside the megas (who aren't going to screw with huge standing armies, not profitable). The UCAS, CAS, and Japan are the closest things, and they have tighter limits than the current USA in terms of budget/manpower (and the first two probably dedicate a fair amount to watching each other). So there's even more pressure to go small but advanced. I figure enhancement is fairly common among lifers/long-term enlistments, though nothing major normally (though I can see discounts in place for folks who pay for increased cyber on their own). They probably don't even pull it out after service either; the notes on Shadowrun prisons noted the usual way they deal with cyber is just deactivating it, not surgical removal. I can't see soldiers held to a harder standard than actual convicts. Maybe they don't even turn it off; sure you're more "dangerous", but by most social logic people generally figure veterans are more patriotic/reputable anyway. Besides, cyber augmentation, even high-grade Wired Reflexes and other military stuff, has to be reasonably common or I don't see how it makes it into the shadows to begin with, or how you could falsify permits and reasonably expect them to pass muster. Being able to get it through the army or similar organization has to be common enough to be acceptable as a cover story. And honestly, compared to the kinds of costs they sink into modern soldiers today in just training and supply, cyberware is almost a drop in the bucket, especially given the major returns on your investment and the likelyhood of bulk discounts from the manufacturers. A REMF might be skimped on, but anybody expected to see actual combat is more likely to have some kind of reaction boost available depending on length of service or combat posting. You could even save a bit and just enhance right before a conflict; wouldn't be a huge time crunch to cyber up guys right before shipping them to a war zone given SR healing times. If your soldier never makes it to the front lines, you don't waste lots of money on cyber that way.

I figure military service is one of the more likely ways to build a street sam; I recall one note suggesting they heavily recruit from the SINless/poor end of society. A little oopsie with IDing you as KIA or the like could leave you out SINless with gear. Mercs probably are more likely to heavily augment than regular army as a recruiting tactic though.

I would think the basic stuff like smart link, eyes, and radios would be, given to pretty much any infantry above a certain rank and enlistment time or at a significantly lower price . Wired reflexes, rigger mods, and other specialized stuff may be given depending on job.

I have a felling that no gov would allow their military to spend a couple of million on a solder for only a few years of service, those who are getting a lot of free ware are most likely in the service for a long time doing very specialized jobs.

This.
Militaries all over the globe are currently busy developing gadgets for their troops to improve the capabilities of the individual soldiers, and cyberware would be exactly that. The army would also get some bulk discount if they choose to wire up 10 000 people

A very good point, to which I'd like to emphasize that the same goes for magical security. With more and more people getting some amount of cyber/bio-ware, either as military or as the myriad civilian options, it is no longer as suspicious to see the "dead spots" in someone's aura. Sec-Mages can no longer rely on lower Essence as a reliable threat indicator.

There seems to be a lot of virulence in responses to this topic

Like with the majority of issued gear, veterans would not get to keep it, at least for free. Implanted gear would seem to be the kind that would only be issued upon signing a longer contract, or agreeing to pay cuts. The military frequently provides training that is useful once out of the military, and as noted previously, bargains harder for it. The military knows the value of what it offers.

On another note though, injured veterans from the current war are at the top of the lists for experimental bionics. http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2010/01/...s/fischman-text

Basic cyberlimb replacements for combat injuries would be pretty common in SR.

And essence loss affects ALL healing, not just magical. SR4 Core Book page 244.

I double-checked in SR4A and Godwyn's right, the modifier description in the table does not differentiate between magical and mundane healing. Granted, it's only -1 per 2 points of lost Essence, which IIRC is not as severe as the SR3 penalty on magical healing.

As for removing Wired Reflexes, intuition (if not rules) tells me that surgically removing a full body modification that includes millions of microscopic connections to the adrenal and nervous systems (at a minimum) would never be cost effective. It would almost certainly be more cost effective to disable the system. They could even administer some sort of nanite injection (handwaving here) that attacks the connections (or whatever) and disable the system without giving the subject anything worse than a 24-hour fever. That's all assuming that the military was seriously interested in (or required to by national law) keeping wired reflexes out of the general population. Obviously corporate soldiers would be operating under their particular flavor of corporate law, but there are still a lot of national armed forces out there, even if they are more fragmented.

First off, no one is implanted with a bug spirit. A bug spirit eats your mind, gains your memories, and then pretends to be you. The bug spirit may have all of your memories, but it only imitates your personality and has its own motives which are likely to be far different from your own, so, bad example.

Secondly, 1/1000 people are magically active, and only a fraction of them actually know it. There may be 1 or 2 top of the line hospitals out there that provide magical healing for the rich, but your average 'runner isn't going to see it unless he knows a healing mage personally. And do you realize how easy it is to implant some shmuck with skillwires and give him the first aid or medical skill with zip years of training? A doctor with rating 4 medicine costs 48k nuyen and one hobo. Doctors in 2070 aren't going to be highly trained, paid, and sought after medical proffessionals unless they work for rich hospitals. Expecting a hospital that a shadowrunner's going to go to to have actual people treating him instead of machines is laughable. Expecting him to get magical care without paying out the nose for it is absurd.

I'm sorry for bringing this off topic, but I think it's pretty clear that Wired Reflexes aren't going to draw too much attention so long as a 'runner has all the right forgered paperwork. Whether or not Wired Reflexes would be deactivated or not after leaving the military is irrelevant, no one's going to be able to tell whether or not your Reflexes are active from a cyberware scanner and a large ex-military populous with deactivated Reflexes would actually make a 'runner with them quite a bit less suspicious. In the end, the important thing is that street sams should be able to have Wired Reflexes without having to worry about extra surveillance from mall security.

Sure they would. Legit cyberware has active RFID tags that ping a cyberware scanner.

Augmentation pg. 31
"Implants that don’t require any sort of mental control still come equipped with RFID sensor tags as a matter of course."

If a vet has a controlled implant supplied by the military, the cyberware scanner probably reads this information, its activation status, along with a serial number of some type.

AFB right now, but what is the cost of a single dose Jazz, Cram of Kamikaze? Jazz and Cram give the extra IP and a bonus to reaction, while Kamikaze givs more. My question is: what is the average number of hard contacts a soldier meets during his career? If the number of encounters times the cost of an enhancement drug is lower than the cost of WR 1, then it doesn't pay up to cyber the Joe.
Of course, special forces don't count here, since they may even operate during "peace time" against "friendly countries" too.
Anyway, it is all about the bottom line. Wired Reflexes would be the kind of thing that would be found on these kind of people: security/military personnel and even then, only on the top ones, people with degenerative reflex diseases/syndroms like Parkson since a genetic treatment would be more expensive than cybering up, cyber enthusiasts and even then it would be quite rare and the kind of thing that the few who had it would show it off a lot to its peers, shadowrunnners (need to explain?)
Anyway, just my 2 on the matter.

Edit:Also, 1% of the population is Awakened, not 0,1%

there is the drone missile. Ok so by default its only 6 turns of operations time, but extend that into hours and you got your cruise missile.

but then fasa got some flack about rigger3 where they added such things as aircraft carriers and cruise missiles, so...

oh, and something to consider. all levels of wired are R rated, not F rated. So get your license, and your free to go.

The same reason they wouldn't give it to everyone: Major Surgery, 7P damage, 1 hour minimum implant or extraction time, 2-3 day recovery period.

Actually the number is 'less than 1%', so likely somewhere between 1% and 0.1%

The problem with the drugs is, they only work after you use them. Not so good for unplanned encounters with the enemy. And you can't have somebody drugged up for the entire duration of a long range patrol. Plus drugs probably have more side effects- nervousness, effects on judgement- than cyberware does. If you have military folks interacting with civilians, judgement is very important.

Sure, but that's why you use those Drug dispensers found on arsenal linked to your PAN, as soon as your turn, as a free action the drug is injected on your blood stream and you are good to go as soon as the encounter begins, which would make Jazz (or Cram, can't remember, the one who lasts longer) ideal for long combat operations.

Now, you might say that a person could develop addiction to a combat drug, sure. But what about all those nasty stuff provoked by heavy-cyber like cyberpsichosis, cyber immuno-defficiency, etc?

Remember, it is all about bottom line? If during war-time soldiers shoot civilians, there will be an investigation, sure? But given that most of the time the atrocities will only be punished if the they hit the news, a soldier killing civilians because he was edgy of Jazz won't matter to High Command.

The trend in modern armies is towards small, elite troop forces. Anyone expected to see frontline action is probably wired; even if you only use the extra actions to assist the real infantry or go on full defense, it's useful to fronline support staff too.

Do you keep it afterwards? I think they'll take it out unless you pay to keep it. The ones that don't pay result in a major source of second-hand cyberware, like contemporary army dumpstores.

Taking a stint in the military may be a good way for people to acquire cyberware on a downpayment scheme, without having to borrow from the mob. Afterwards you go into the private sector; you can then take jobs that require you to bring your own augmentations and training.

1. Unless cyber is really expensive to remove, they will likely remove it unless it's negotiated for/earned/payed for. Cyber is re-usable.

2. Someone quoted that R4 doctors are 48k through skillwires. Don't have time to check if it's accurate, but the spirit of the matter is. The military is very likely to use skillwire medics for a lot of their work, and if the "doctor" isn't doing something (like implanting/removing cyber), then they aren't being productive/cost effective.

3. Sure, some militaries likely use combat drugs for most of their troops. As pointed out, how often do you actually see action? But there are horrible side effects, which reduce the effectiveness of professional soldiers (short attention span, feeling of invincbility, etc). And there is the whole "drug addicts are bad PR" thing. Does any of that -stop- the military? No, but it's probably not standard procedure for many countries (like the former United States). Second line/reserve troops probably have longer lasting combat enhancements in their kits (they are lightweight, after all), but I don't see all countries using Juicer troops as primary forces. To many side effects.

And what about the feeling of invicibility, detachment, etc. provoked by cyber? Yes, they are rare but they exist and they are as bad PR as drug addiction. Let's say that th army does provide WR 1 to GI's, now imagine that one GI after perceiving how awesome he is with his WR realizes that his enlistment time is finishing and his WR will be removed/deactivated, whatever. He might just as well try to desert or kill the MP who are taking them to th doctors and locks himself in the armory or starts shooting people or whatever.
Cyber psichosis is real and even if you say that less than 1% of the population develops it, if you start applying the law of large numbers, you realize that you will have a LOT of ticking time-bombs waiting to go off.

So who says that will be the same in the future? Remember, in Canada, women DO serve in combat roles, and the C in UCAS is Canada. Additionally, why wouldn't woman fight in the SR verse? Wouldn't that be a waste of resoruces to exclude someone just because of gender?

All the more reason why a nation-state might legislate a requirement to remove or disable military augmentations upon discharge. Don't underestimate the power of mob fear. Look at the current irrational hysteria about moving Guantanamo detainees to U.S. prisons. Those are completely unaugmented baseline humans that pose no actual threat to the communities they would be imprisoned near. Now extrapolate and imagine the public hue and cry that would ensue after the first few cases of unbalanced veterans taking out their office/school/family/etc with the aid of their military-provided augmentations.

Not all military personnel are infantry who'd benefit from wired reflexes. A supply clerk or cook isn't going to need all those combat goodies to do their job, and the military certainly isn't going to put them under the knife for wired reflexes. Off the top of my head, I'd guess that at least 60% of the military is composed of the support structure that doesn't actively engage in combat. Plus, it's mentioned numerous times that military outfits have been known to take back any 'ware they implant after your service is up. So while I'm sure there are plenty of legitimate ex-military folks running around with wired reflexes in the Sixth World, it's not going to be nearly that high of a percentage.

So... have 100% of your soldiers hyped up on drugs which do bad things to your brain/state of mind, and who go through horrible detox crashes, or have a very small percentage of your soldiers have normal "I AM HE-MAN!" crazyness.

Yeah, I'm not to concerned. Sure it's an issue which shouldn't be ignored, but sounds like a normal military stress thing, combined with cyber. Yeah, not a good thing, but if you really are that concerned, add "MPs" to the list who normally get Wired.

"Cyber Pyschosis is real," and at least in 4th Ed cannon, off the top of my head I believe there is a rule a rule (suggestion?) that only people who hit 1 Essence or lower should have it. Cool; you can fit alot of mods (even normal grade, used ones) in someone before they hit that level. If you're building Almost-Cyberzombies, do you really think the military isn't adding a Cortex bomb, just in case?

Everyone has their own views and that is fine.

I did want to make the point that the base model wired reflexes and Vehicle Control rigs are going to be very common especially when you look at any thing that might attract more than average active duty or veterans.

I'll agree that any thing beyond a basic package of enhancements is going to require additional commitments. For that matter the base 2 year term of enlistment might be a mandatory 4 year by 2050.

But if you look at the costs, it is going to run a bare minimum of 100K to train an infantryman. I've heard it was more like 250K and a lot more if you start to talk someone with advance training like an Army Ranger.

You think spending 30 or 40K (before volume discounts) is not worth it to protect the investment and increase the length of the serviceman's commitment even leaving out making him much more combat effective?

And I think the Army is going to love gear that a soldier never has to worry about dropping, or losing while crossing a stream, or just finding it when they wake up in the morning. So I expect cybereyes and headware packages are going to be common.

As to removing it, why bother to remove some thing that is only worth 20K when it was brand new and would drastically reduce their ability to be called up quickly. Not to mention it is already 4 to 8 years old so the next generation is already out there.

Especially when you can always make it part of the deal that they serve a few years in the reserve in order to get it in stalled any way.

I mean sure if someone is leaving the service with a dishonorable discharge or they have a serious advance set of cyberware, then you might consider either removing it or locking it down.

But otherwise it is going to be your best recruitment tool ever. Just like everyone wants to be an Air Force pilot they they can retire and fly passenger jets, you are going to have a lot of people signing up to get those enhancements. All those ex servicemen heading in to a security, law enforcement, or firefighting career would find their enhancements just perfect for landing the job, preforming the job, and surviving the job, so why would you do any thing to reduce their capability?

Not to mention even if a person wasn't going in to one of those career, wouldn't wire reflexes help you as an oil rig worker or a Fisherman? All dangerous professions where that extra edge would help you stay alive and make you more productive. Smaller insurance bills and a smaller payroll.

For that matter, I expect the military would prefer cyberlimbs to growing cloned replacement limbs. First they are cheaper and faster. Secondly they make you more survivable. Win Win.

Combat Drugs are nice, but not something you can count on if they are on the front line for months at a time.

Just like Drones are great, but you need troops too because Drones can be hacked.

And as I said before it wont just be wired reflexes.
Skillwires and VCR rigs are likely to be nearly as common and just as useful in a civilian career.

Cyberpsychosis isn't just suggested for less than 1 essence chars, its only allowed for less than 1 essence chars. Last I checked, WR essence cost only went up to 5 if you wanted 4 IP. For most soldiers they wouldn't take that much and the ones who would would be closely watched for signs of psychosis.

One of the few times I'm going to out and out agree with someone, based upon previous SR canon. SR canon (Shadows of Europe) has the Catholic Church ordaining women as priests...Which would induce theological issues of a major scope. Compared to that, what's the difficulty in letting women serve in the infantry?

Getting back to the topic, though:

The way I see it, cyber should be rare, even in an infantryman, officer or enlisted. For a ground-pounder, you're only likely to get cyber if you're selected for a special operations force (from the Rangers all the way to Delta Force), and only then if you agree to a longer-than-usual active duty service obligation.

At the end of service, I don't see cyber being ripped out of you - the surgery to remove wired reflexes, for example, would be too difficult to remove...And for that matter, what would you replace what the wires replaced with? Somehow I doubt they have neural tissue lying around like that. Instead, I do see it being deactivated.

Now...totally disagree with whoever said that the military would prefer cyber over clonal replacements. As is, IRL they already collect DNA samples from you when you enlist. Why not do like Docwagon does and grow wimps?

I think that might be more of an issue in a pure cyberpunk world and in the Sixth World.

I don't see your baseline human raising a hue and cry about military cyberware when they have to run around with baseline Orks and Trolls. "He broke the victim's jaw! But my client is not even 10 years old."

I see them calling for cops and security guards to have more cyberware so they can better protect them.

I'd also bet you would see cyberware being targeted towards humans more than the other metaraces at least initially for a variety of reasons. "We can not take the risk of cyber implantation with non base line metatypes until more research is done." Or "Off the record, Orks age so much faster that it is just not cost effective to install 200k suites of cyberware in some one that will be facing mandatory retirement in less than 20 years. Not when you can sign a human for a full 20 year term of enlistment." And of course "Cyberware is the only thing that gives a red blooded human a chance against those subhuman scum."

Expense and time.

Give the military the choice between taking a wounded soldier and slapping a cyberlimb on him and have him back in the field in less than a week (without ever leaving the combat zone) verse having to either bring his wimp to him or bring him to his wimp and all the time and problems that would entail? What happens if someone hits your wimp depot? You can keep a supply of one size fits all cyberlimbs all over the world while the infrastructure for a wimp is going to be substantial.

And leaving out physical therapy, all a cyberlimb needs is a few adjustments before it is ready to go. A wimp limb is going to need some work before it is as physically fit as an active duty soldier.

Now some soldiers (high ranking and some special forces) would have wimps just because you have too much invested in them to not get them back in the game ASAP.

Ok, my bad, cyber-psichosys only affect people with Essence 1 or less, but Implant-Induced Immuno Deficiency is for anyone with Essence 5 or less and also Weak Immune System is described as people who have undergone heavy body modification could also develop it because of a bad reaction with the immuno-suppression drugs.
Anyway, one dose of Cram costs 10 nuyen, an auto-injector costs 1,500 nuyen and holds 5 doses. Wired Reflexes 1 costs 11,000 nuyen. For the same cost, you could have an auto-injector connected to the soldier's armor and 850 doses of Cram. I think that no soldier meets 850 hard contacts during his time not even Special Forces. And for further safety issues the auto-injector could be connected with a tacnet that would detect any moment of hard contact and inject the drug automatically. You could even disable any self activation and only the tacnet or the officer, NCO, whomever could activate the auto-injector to prevent addiction.

As I said, I think it is easier to find people with degenerative reflexes disorder being allowed to have Wired Reflexes than any grunt.

For some security guard that is likely to face a serous threat one a year at most, your auto injector makes great sense. Your guard is likely to only actually be using the drug once a month or so. Plus many a mandatory training session to make sure the guard knows how to handle the drug (and doesn't have any nasty side effects).

Now compare that a soldier on the battlefront. He needs to be able to function at full efficiency for days. I wouldn't want to image the health risks of using Cram after I've been up for 24 hours let alone what the risks are if I've been taking Cram for the last 24 hours.

Besides which why wouldn't you have an auto-injector with cram loaded for the wired I soldier too?

You know one of the top pieces of enhancement provided by the military is going to be a sleep regulator.

Hmm... it does shave 4 hours off of sleep time, which is 1/6th of the day. That's a reasonable investment on the face of it, but the question is could you get those extra four hours as work? I mean people are going to want extra pay for those extra four hours, and if you don't provide the extra pay, you're just giving them more free time. While that is a great moral boost, it is an expensive one at 5k (or is it 15k or something?) per soldier.

Now for spec-ops soldiers on the other hand, this will be a big deal. A sniper that can sleep 4 hours less a day is a sniper that can move 4 hours further, kill 4 hours longer, and/or keep lookout 4 hours longer. Not to mention it is that much easier for them on long term missions. Less risk of being ambushed while sleeping and so on and so forth.

Of course I'm sure they'd also get wired reflexes 1 and a bunch of other cool stuff to help out.

Karoline you just made me lol at my desk perhaps unintentionally. Military folks (at the vest least in the states) arn't hourly and are rarely confined to a 40 hour work week. The sleep regulator would be nice from a extra hours standpoint but the three days without sleep in crisis times is when it would really made it's presence felt.

Oh, I know they aren't paid hourly or anything, but within the realms of being hired, they expect to work a certain amount (roughly). If they have to work 4 more hours in the future than they have to work now, they're going to want to be compensated for that with higher pay.

It is kind of like managers aren't generally paid by the hour, but if something is going to cause them to have to work several more hours a day (like another manager quitting) then they're going to want a pay bonus of some kind for the extra work, even though they aren't technically paid by the hour.

So yeah, no hourly pay, but if you compare a non-sleep regulator contract to a sleep regulator contract, the sleep regulator one is going to have to include extra pay or the person is going to be expecting those extra 4 hours off.