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Androcomputus
So one of my players is playing a ganger while another one is playing as the clone of a soldier from the Euro Wars...

The Ganger has the following mentality

Us or Them: This is a step below the standard runner morality. You'll almost always take Wetwork and if some folks die during the run, well, better them than you. A job would have to be utterly morally reprehensible for you to even consider turning it down. They only loyalty you have is to your team, and even that's flexible when enough nuyen is flashed your way.

The Clone has the following mentality

Black Hat: Nothing is off limits, no matter how morally bankrupt the offer happens to be. You'd sell your own grandmother to the organleggers for a bit of cred. You are barely a step above the worst monsters that prowl the sprawls.

So this leads me to what happens when they keep killing the guards to facilities? Reality dictates this will perk the interest of Corporations as they have to benefits to fallen guards' family members, pay hospital bill for people wounded but no killed... not to mention the grudge beholden by other guards... Is there anything else I could do to provide consequences for their actions...

Penta
Remember that not every corp is extraterritorial. Not every facility of an ET corp is itself extraterritorial.

Every dead guard is a murder charge.

Now, after about 5 murder charges the cops, whomever they are, start perking up and wanting to hunt for you, regardless of who you killed. Why? Because that's when the news starts to take notice.

After a few runs, we're probably talking *multiples* of this.

Oh, and here's a good thought. The moment they set a toe outside of the original jurisdiction, in the US/UCAS it becomes a federal offense. That brings in the FBI.

And since runners can generally be classified as terrorists?

...Well.
kjones
Give them each a job to take out the other.

Seriously, this sort of behavior is exactly what the Notoriety stat is for. Sounds like they'll be earning it in spades.

Additionally, you should play off of their mutual distrust, among each other and the rest of the team. Distrust within a team is a critical liability. If the Clone is serious about being willing to turn on his own team, give him the opportunity to do so, and see how the rest of the team reacts.

EDIT: Also, what Penta said. Killing lots of people will anger more than just the corps.
Androcomputus
Interesting... Interesting... anyway I could show that the cops are taking interest?
Androcomputus
Interesting... Interesting... anyway I could show that the cops are taking interest?
kjones
QUOTE (Androcomputus @ Feb 21 2010, 11:33 PM) *
Interesting... Interesting... anyway I could show that the cops are taking interest?


Have them show up on the evening news trid feed - faces, names, SINs. That'll get their attention.
LurkerOutThere
Have them think their being followed or shadowed by drones, some of which may or may not have LS or KE markings. Their contacts won't deal with them saying too many people are asking about them. If you want have a LS detective show up at their safe house to ask them a few questions. (If they do the stupid thing and try and kill the detective, backup shows up shortly and kills the runners, their next PC's may be smarter and less trigger happy).
DireRadiant
QUOTE (Androcomputus @ Feb 21 2010, 09:47 PM) *
They only loyalty you have is to your team, and even that's flexible when enough nuyen is flashed your way.


You'd sell your own grandmother to the organleggers for a bit of cred.


Offer those runs sometime.

Even better, offer them a job to sell one of their own team to the organleggers.

Find other jobs they would define as "morally reprehensible" and offer those to them, because soon those are the only jobs they get.
Critias
QUOTE (kjones @ Feb 21 2010, 11:34 PM) *
Have them show up on the evening news trid feed - faces, names, SINs. That'll get their attention.

Only if there's a reason or way for the evening news trid feed to HAVE their faces, names, and SINs. Otherwise it's the worst (and lamest) sort of heavy-handed metagame-GMing around.

Just like came up on another recent thread about "evil" Shadowrunners -- just remember that actions carry consequences. If they're still taking appropriate precautions, there's absolutely no reason to be a dick about it and just have SWAT teams miraculously find them. If they're being sloppy and violent, though...well, maybe a warning from a Fixer or other contact to give them a fair chance to get their crap together is in order, and then you call down the thunder and the violence. They're making their beds, let 'em sleep in 'em.

The game's go notoriety mechanics for a reason...use 'em.

Above all, though -- to me, at least -- the trick is to keep it about the actions of the characters, not the morality of the players. Murder is murder. Arson is arson. The cops, soldiers, corporate security, Johnsons, media, and Fixers don't have any reason to know or care about the intent of the characters in question, and shouldn't be judging them any more or less harshly because of it. The mindset of the characters isn't the issue, their actions (and their evidence trail) are what counts.
Androcomputus
The main problem lies with the other two characters in the group who lean more to the following.


Firefly Standard: The name says it all. You're mostly the good guys, but sometimes a man needs killing and dirty deeds need doing. You're still likely to refuse Wetwork and other dirtier runs, but you might consider them if you get desperate enough.

Strictly Professional: You'll probably take most jobs that come your way, unless they're obviously socially harmful or downright evil. You conduct yourself in a professional manner and avoid killing unless it's necessary.
Whipstitch
What Critias said. Outsiders see consequences, not motives. Good intentions alone should count for nothing. I don't care if one of the PCs runs a soup kitchen on weekends or if he's got a stake in a bunraku parlor; if he fires on the Star, they're going to fire right back.
kzt
QUOTE (Androcomputus @ Feb 22 2010, 12:15 AM) *
The main problem lies with the other two characters in the group who lean more to the following.


Firefly Standard: The name says it all. You're mostly the good guys, but sometimes a man needs killing and dirty deeds need doing. You're still likely to refuse Wetwork and other dirtier runs, but you might consider them if you get desperate enough.

Strictly Professional: You'll probably take most jobs that come your way, unless they're obviously socially harmful or downright evil. You conduct yourself in a professional manner and avoid killing unless it's necessary.

If there is enough data I'd hire #4 to wax the first two, or convince #3 that 1 & 2 'needs killing". Or have the fixer point out to him his whole team has become poison and suggest he resolve the issue.
Ascalaphus
Well, first off, do you or the other players have a problem with it, or is the problem just in IC one? OOC problems can only be solved by actual communication; IC you have some other options.

Also, are they just morally bankrupt? Or, as it seems to be, are they violently, blatantly morally bankrupt?

Most of shadowrunning involves doing things that aren't nice. You're paid to take the moral fall, but to do it quietly.


* Maybe some corp decides to set up a sting operation

* If they can get footage of the PCs (and with how cheap cameras are, that should be possible), then a public manhunt may be an option. But remember how cheap getting a new face is, too.

* After public hunting stops working because the PCs take surgery, you can send in some nemesis NPCs. Give them names, histories, personalities. Let them stalk the team, gradually getting closer. They collect gait-analysis data, genetic samples, lists of contacts, MO, psychological profiling - all the while sending in goons to try to grab the PCs when they show themselves. The Nemesis NPCs meanwhile should stay out of direct reach most of the time. Think of Mahone in the second season of Prison Break. But the PCs should see them now and then, on the news or at a distance. (With cover, so they can't be shot dead outright.)

* Put a bounty on their head. A 100K bounty isn't unreasonable for interterritorial serial killers/terrorists. While the UCAS can't really do so publicly itself, they can have the Mob do it as "patriotism".

* Some NPCs try to make a name for themselves by "beating the best", killing these notorious PCs.
Glyph
Dead guards are, quite frankly, part of the business. You get in a shootout with the guards, and generally the guards will wind up dead. I haven't heard anything to justify any corporation taking more than the normal interest in the runners. These guys sound amoral and unsympathetic, but you haven't detailed anything extraordinarily bad that they have done.

They will only run into problems if they start killing guards by the scores instead of the few, or if they add wanton property damage or killing/injuring normal corporate employees such as office worker or janitors, or if they do exceptionally sick things such as torturing people or strewing dismembered limbs about the place. If they do that kind of thing, then they will start getting a bad rep, and having people take more than the usual interest in tracking them down.
Dixie Flatline
QUOTE (Glyph @ Feb 22 2010, 12:51 AM) *
Dead guards are, quite frankly, part of the business. You get in a shootout with the guards, and generally the guards will wind up dead. I haven't heard anything to justify any corporation taking more than the normal interest in the runners. These guys sound amoral and unsympathetic, but you haven't detailed anything extraordinarily bad that they have done.

They will only run into problems if they start killing guards by the scores instead of the few, or if they add wanton property damage or killing/injuring normal corporate employees such as office worker or janitors, or if they do exceptionally sick things such as torturing people or strewing dismembered limbs about the place. If they do that kind of thing, then they will start getting a bad rep, and having people take more than the usual interest in tracking them down.


While you're pretty much spot on, it's safe to say most runners will ask themselves "Do I need to kill here?" It may be a snap judgment, but if the default answer is always "there wasn't a question to begin with" it will shape the kinds of runs offered to the runners.

After all, as a Johnson for a corp, who needs something sensitive done, and has the cred to back it up, who are you going to want to employ? The group who consistently clocks out with a high body count (and thus headlines)? Or the group who usually manages a lower body count?

I'd actually end up sending the PCs on distraction missions. It sounds like they enjoy a tussle after all.

They also stand to end up getting sent on suicide missions too. Discretion, knowing when to pull the trigger, is valuable. Otherwise the Johnson could just hire a gang, give them frag grenades and some AK's, and let them go party at the target site.

It's okay for the characters to be morally bankrupt and willing to sell each other out, or view life as cheap. But the Black Hat sounds like a professional, and no ganger would have made it this far without some kind of honor code. There has to be something that they value. Even James Bond doesn't kill unless he has to. Killing is messy and results in unforseen consequences.
toturi
QUOTE (Dixie Flatline @ Feb 22 2010, 05:03 PM) *
After all, as a Johnson for a corp, who needs something sensitive done, and has the cred to back it up, who are you going to want to employ? The group who consistently clocks out with a high body count (and thus headlines)? Or the group who usually manages a lower body count?
That depends.
As a Johnson, there are usually 2 questions being asked:
1) What is the success rate of this group?
2) Can the job be traced back to me?

To some Js, success is paramount. Everything else is secondary. To other Js, certain degrees of failure is acceptable as long as the team is discrete and the job cannot be traced back to the J and/or the party he represents.

Body count, insofar as it attracts police attention, is a factor. But there is another caveat, leave no witnesses that can finger you. Body count may also mean that there is no one left alive who can identify the runners and that may end up as a plus on the "Can this be traced back to me" column.
Acidsaliva
Check out the Evil Parties Thread for ideas.

I would say one word : Revenge .
Have a bunch of gangers attack PCs en route to job. The PCs waste them. Next mission their buddies come back bigger and badder.
The PCs kill Joe CorpSec on run, his brother works in Lone Star and starts putting the pressure on to ID the PCs and then pin any crimes he can think of on them.
On the way out with the paydata the PCs come across another Prime Runner group armed to the teeth. The PCs greet them with a shower of lead. The Prime Runners (who were on a completely different run at the time and merely have bad timing) survive, nurse their wounds and decide that payback is in order.

Only really have punishing consequences for your PCs if you want to punish them for their killing sprees. If you are all happy playing a pink Mohawk game with little to no consequences, then don't worry about it. Although with the PCs you have in the team, it sounds as thought you'll have some party conflict before long. See my comments in the Evil Parties Thread .
Saint Sithney
Honestly, in a game where roving gangs of mutants spend their nights trying to rape passers by with barbwire cocks, I don't see a few dead guards as a big deal.

There are routine discussions about lethal vs. less-lethal attitudes here on DS, but my feeling has always been that:
1) Gratuitous violence shows sloppy work. Combat is a risk, so excessive combat means poor planning.
2) There's a difference between people who matter and people who don't matter. Guards don't matter.
Draco18s
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Feb 21 2010, 11:45 PM) *
Even better, offer them a job to sell one of their own team to the organleggers.


This. Or put a hit out on the whole team. If they can get paid to kill themselves* and manage to pull it off without killing each other they deserve the nuyen.

*Paid upon completion. Also, the Johnson is not aware that the group he's hiring is the group he wants dead.
MikeKozar
If the group want to run a pink mohawk run-and-gun action fest, you can always just find some deeply despicable enemies for them to go after - say you send them into an Aztechnology blood magic research facility that is experimenting on the most effective methodology for human sacrifice, whether torture makes the spell more potent, etc. Fed by kidnappings and corporate executions...team could be hired to extract somebody that is on the chopping block, but all of the guards and staff know exactly what goes on and have more then earned a bullet.

This is assuming that that's the kind of game the group wants to play...it's your job to make sure everyone is having fun, not to make sure they're being moral. On the other hand, if the nutjobs in the group are creeping out the other players, you will need to pull them aside and ask them to knock it off or find another group. First rule: Everyone needs to be having fun.
Karoline
QUOTE (MikeKozar @ Feb 22 2010, 09:36 AM) *
it's your job to make sure everyone is having fun, not to make sure they're being moral.


*snicker* Moral Shadowrunners.

Isn't that like a moral axe murderer?

Edit: If you want to make it obvious to the runners that their antics are getting notice, perhaps have one of the companies allow a reporter (Or a reporter finds out somehow) about one of the mass murders that took place and have it be big news.

"Ten guards and two night shift employees were found dead this morning at X corp facility. Families of the departed have made a public outcry to bring the terrorists that did this to justice. If you have any information that might lead to a flashy newsworthy arrest of these fugitives from the law, please call XXX-XXXX. There is a 5k nuyen reward for information that leads to justicetm.

At this point contacts will start to dry up as word gets around it was them that did it (If not low loyalty contacts turning them in outright).
Fuchs
I am with Glyph here - I don't see a problem that needs intervention, as long as all players and GM involved have fun. There's nothing wrong in playing an "evil campaign", you don't have to play cops. You can play evil scum like eco-terrorists, nutjobs who attack the corps for being corps, sociopaths who want anarchy to reign in the city, or people who sabotage careers and end lives for a price.
Karoline
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Feb 22 2010, 10:04 AM) *
I am with Glyph here - I don't see a problem that needs intervention, as long as all players and GM involved have fun. There's nothing wrong in playing an "evil campaign", you don't have to play cops. You can play evil scum like eco-terrorists, nutjobs who attack the corps for being corps, sociopaths who want anarchy to reign in the city, or people who sabotage careers and end lives for a price.


Agreed, being 'evil' isn't necessarily a bad thing for a game (And given how most games have you portrayed as the hero, a nice change of pace sometimes), but it will still have the same reproductions from the world. Just because you're playing an 'evil' game doesn't mean that people will react any more favorably to it than if you were playing a 'good' game. Twelve dead nuns is twelve dead nuns.
Fuchs
What I was trying to say is that as a Shadowrunner, you are already playing "team evil". Your characters might fool yourself into thinking they're the good guys, but you're playing criminals who commit crimes for money. Dehumanizing your victims as "corp drones" doesn't make them any less human.

We're only arguing the degree of evil, not whether or not you're evil.
Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Feb 22 2010, 12:12 PM) *
Dehumanizing your victims as "corp drones" doesn't make them any less human.

We're only arguing the degree of evil, not whether or not you're evil.


We are not killing them, we are setting them free of their corporate masters cyber.gif
FriendoftheDork
I agree with the ones asking "are they having fun?"

While SR often is aimed at less brutal PCs, it sure fits with the more evil ones, and as long as everyone including the GM is having fun, then there's no problem with that. Sure you can have consequences, people coming back for revenge, etc., but don't try to force your players to play "moral" characters by making things impossible for them.

Still if you have a more realistic twist to your game you might consider that excessive killing is bad for business and many shadowrunners never kill unless in self-defense or unless that's the job - some not even then. Also, sometimes corps doesn't want the world to know that they're elite guards using experimental technology was killed en masse while failing to defend a secret research lab testing combat drugs on kidnapped homeless people.....
Draco18s
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Feb 22 2010, 11:16 AM) *
I agree with the ones asking "are they having fun?"


There should still be consequences to their actions. If they want to have fun killing people at least make sure they can't do it willy nilly. They need to understand that, or it'll likely escalate to the point where they think they can do anything and get away with it, which quickly becomes "not fun." As soon as the taboo isn't taboo there's no challenge.
wanderer_king
If your group is having fun with that style of game? Is there a conflict? It doesn't sound like most of the group has moral issues with killing, just more of a professional one... if your group likes this style of play, then maybe you should have them do runs against Desert Wars! contestants for other Desert Wars! contestants.
Brazilian_Shinobi
It ain't just the players who must be having fun. The GM as well, and I think this is the issue here.
FriendoftheDork
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Feb 22 2010, 05:19 PM) *
There should still be consequences to their actions. If they want to have fun killing people at least make sure they can't do it willy nilly. They need to understand that, or it'll likely escalate to the point where they think they can do anything and get away with it, which quickly becomes "not fun." As soon as the taboo isn't taboo there's no challenge.


I don't see what taboo has to do with challenge. It's up to the GM to referee the consequences of ALL actions, good or bad. Sometimes realism is sacrificed for playability, action, and good fun. That's why sometimes runners can get away with messing with mafia, doing sabotage mission against megacorps that are more powerful than nations, or blowing up an orphanage. (in self defense of course)

Of course if they DO piss off the wrong people too much, they will be hunted and sooner or later they will make a mistake - but there is no guarantee that it will become "not fun" just because the PCs have no morals.

Still if the GM prefers a game where the PCs are of a more heroic bent, he should let the players know this beforehand. I've done so for my own game, after playing a long but fun game of shadowrunners who killed and lied without honor or humanity...

Now the players are acting a bit gung-ho, but at least they have some things they won't do and actually consider moral quandaries.
Draco18s
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Feb 22 2010, 01:41 PM) *
I don't see what taboo has to do with challenge.


Perhaps the word "taboo" wasn't quite appropriate or lacked the right context. I don't mean that if you kill a guy you're going away for life, I mean that if you're constantly blowing people away, left and right "because you can" then there should be some downside. Even in pink mohawk Lone Star comes after you (how you deal with it might be to kill some more, but they still come after you). Its the challenge in dealing with authority when performing a taboo act that makes that act fun. "Can I get away with it again?" is the driving motivator.
FriendoftheDork
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Feb 22 2010, 08:28 PM) *
Perhaps the word "taboo" wasn't quite appropriate or lacked the right context. I don't mean that if you kill a guy you're going away for life, I mean that if you're constantly blowing people away, left and right "because you can" then there should be some downside. Even in pink mohawk Lone Star comes after you (how you deal with it might be to kill some more, but they still come after you). Its the challenge in dealing with authority when performing a taboo act that makes that act fun. "Can I get away with it again?" is the driving motivator.


Sure, if you murder people without the necessary discretion you will probably attract attention and get caught. And if you just stay and continue killing Lone Star the GTA style, then you will eventually face people far better than you, with much more dangerous equipment, and more than you. In which case any character will fail.

However if you're not chaotic stupid you might get away with murder on a regular basis.

But the way I got it none of these guys were murdering for fun, but for profit. Which in itself does not necessitate that the PCs are stupid or that the GM needs to punish them for their wicked ways. If they continually kill without need they will gain Notoriety, and they will be more likely to attract Johnsons as bad as them or worse, often wanting to backstab them. Tough luck.

If they kill when they profit from it and refrain from doing so when they don't, then there's no problem.
Critias
QUOTE (FriendoftheDork @ Feb 22 2010, 02:37 PM) *
If they kill when they profit from it and refrain from doing so when they don't, then there's no problem.

Or, at least, no more of a problem than in any other Shadowrun game.
cndblank
I just take notes and make sure that they have to live (or not) with the consequences of their actions.

Runners who are pros stay in the Shadows and are in demand.

As long as everyone is having fun...

I will cut some slack to the other players if they are not fully participating.

In real life, if someone was that crazy, his team mates would pull a fade and find someone more reliable to run with. But in gaming, you have your group of players that you game with and a lot of times one or two players can set the tone for the rest of the campaign
toturi
QUOTE (Karoline @ Feb 22 2010, 10:56 PM) *
At this point contacts will start to dry up as word gets around it was them that did it (If not low loyalty contacts turning them in outright).

If words gets around, who's going to know and who's going to talk. That's one factor.

But if the relationship with the contact is based upon intimidation and Notoriety, this simply reinforces "I am so bad you do not cross me". This is another factor.
LurkerOutThere
Yea but having to run down and intimidate your contacts into helping you gets only really really fast when previously they would have answered the com on the first or second ring. Even then intimidation shouldn't always be possible, some of your contacts should be better armed and equiped then you, that's how you move up in the world of course.
Dixie Flatline
QUOTE (toturi @ Feb 22 2010, 01:22 AM) *
That depends.
As a Johnson, there are usually 2 questions being asked:
1) What is the success rate of this group?
2) Can the job be traced back to me?

To some Js, success is paramount. Everything else is secondary. To other Js, certain degrees of failure is acceptable as long as the team is discrete and the job cannot be traced back to the J and/or the party he represents.

Body count, insofar as it attracts police attention, is a factor. But there is another caveat, leave no witnesses that can finger you. Body count may also mean that there is no one left alive who can identify the runners and that may end up as a plus on the "Can this be traced back to me" column.


Good points all. However, if you have to kill people to hide your trail, you're hosed to begin with. I assume "if they can ID us, they get fragged" is a basic runner rule of thumb, so body count to me is a general reflection of how subtle a group of runners is.

I guess as is mentioned further down, a question is asked, and that's "how jaded is the public about 10-20 people getting killed in 2070?"

Canon-fiction keeps talking about work done in the shadows, and blood is usually the most visible element of the shadows period. But this is probably a taste and tone thing for most GMs to decide on their own. If they live in a world where life is beyond cheap, then a mega might get more upset at the destruction of skillsofts and pistols than the death of an employee ("Dude, don't loot the bodies for more than ammo. Renraku comes after you *hard* if you gang skillsofts and SMGs. They won't blink if we leave the bodies as is"). If you're playing it slightly less black, minimizing body count is probably preferable.

Both game tones are acceptable, but it's good to remember that in reality being that casual about killing denotes a very sociopathc tendency.
toturi
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Feb 23 2010, 08:16 AM) *
Yea but having to run down and intimidate your contacts into helping you gets only really really fast when previously they would have answered the com on the first or second ring. Even then intimidation shouldn't always be possible, some of your contacts should be better armed and equiped then you, that's how you move up in the world of course.

No more than having to run down and etiquette your contacts when you have a good rep. When previously they would have answered the com on the third ring, perhaps now they pick up on the first because now you are that bad. Mechanically, unless you are Hung Out to Dry, your contacts still function as normal and whether you manage to contact them is a function of their Connections Rating.

Intimidation like other Social skills should always be possible to try and use. It doesn't mean that you will always be successful and there are factors in play that would tilt the playing field in favor of certain approaches.

QUOTE
However, if you have to kill people to hide your trail, you're hosed to begin with. I assume "if they can ID us, they get fragged" is a basic runner rule of thumb, so body count to me is a general reflection of how subtle a group of runners is.

Even if the runners are very good at the subtle skills - Stealth, Social skills, etc, the odds are that despite their large dice pools and situational modifiers in their favor, the dice will fail.

At the end of the day, a large body count means nothing unless that body count can be traced to the runners. While the GM knows that the PCs aren't subtle, it doesn't necessarily follow that the Js do.
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