The last thread I create "Is magic to hard to resist?" has brought up some other interesting discussions. The following is a continuation of the other thread, essentially.

Powerful Foci are illegal
Ok, people sure any focus above force 2 is illegal, but once you get a permit it is fine. Sure a permit is expensive, but once you have it you can walk around town all you like, with an active focus ... not the smartness thing, but you can do legally. Besides it isn't that easy to spot foci. This is especially true when compared to spotting weapons or cyberware.

Foci are not hard to spot?
First of all the only person who can spot a focus is another awaken person or critter/spirit. Awaken people are not common, so that leads me to think that most LS unit don't have mages?

Besides, once the mage learns masking the chances of the LS mage, who are not common, noticing the focus become slimmer. As the mage gains initiate ranks, he really doesn't have to sweat being detected by most mages. Heck, to the LS mage this mage looks like a mundane. After a while a heavily cybered person has more to worry about, then a mage.

Mages are not hard to spot?
Now in regards to the theme "Geek the mage first!" ... the question becomes "Which one is the mage?" Mages are not obvious at all. The only people who can tell, without a lot of observing are other mages/awaken. Then it becomes an issue of initiate rank, which can make it difficult to tell who the mage is. Now before someone says, who ever has the least metal is the mage! Most people with cyberware are not obvious about it, and besides mages can have cyberware to ... in fact it isn't a bad idea for a mage to take advantage of this and sport some metal ... heck it could just be a mask spell

Are you talking about Shadowrunner mages or "legal citizen" mages?

Why isn't it the smartest thing in the world to walk around with an active Power Focus that youhave a permit for? I'd think it is....

As for the rest, there's nothing remotely difficult about being a mage in 2063. Unless your GM goes way overboard to make your life hell that is.

Sphynx

Actually a decker can't help at all, it requires the mage to take his fake credstick through a pretty good reader then make a fairly difficult social skill (etiquitte) roll. It's really no that easy to do.

How many of their few magi you suppose the LoneStar is going to have walking the risky streets on a beat to notice that Foci/spell? LS reserves magi for the HTR, losing one to some scum with a cheap gun who hates cops just ain't worth it. That having been said, move to numbers... IF 1 in 100 people are Magi. Shadowrunners are the exception because magic in shadows is a great money maker. most of the rst are gonna make some serious wad with thir skill to the highest bedding corp. I'd say that,at best, 1 in 500 cops is a magi. You -may- run across one in a lifetime if they put every magi on the 'beat' for a part of their career, but probably not.

It's not a big deal at all unless your GM is trying to screw with you. That astrally perceiving cop just isn't gonna happen.

Sphynx

Cops in my world aren't stupid, they don't send their mages walking beats. Aside from it being inefficient, it's a shitty way to treat a mage.

They do a fair number of astral patrols and send their spirits around to do even more. Watchers, allies, and elementals zip around all over their patrol area, assensing anyone who's got any sort of visible magic. In fact the easiest and coolest thing is for the little watcher guys to zip through everyone. Not only is it cool to describe the freaky chills, but it's much quicker than stopping to assense everyone to see if they've got any solid-feeling astral forms under their overcoat. Bumped into something? Time to call daddy!


My opinion is that you could probably make an excellently min-maxed LS astral patrol mage, Sphynx. If you try the excersize you might change your mind

This is actually two questions.

1) Is everyday life more difficult for a mage with a SIN?

A: No, not really - unless you do something illegal. Theres an LS database indicating where you live, what spells you have permits for, what foci you have permits for, where you live, and that LS would have ritual samples available if you've ever been to a hospital legally. So if an astral forensics specialist notices that certain spells in a crime, and you possess permits for those spells, expect a nice little visit/chat. This may happen occaisionally even in matters in which you arent involved. Note that there is a record of ever legal purchase you've ever made, so LS might get suspicious if they notice you have a permit for something youve never bought, and if LS finds a discarded focus at a crime scene and then notices you buying a matching focus the next day, that donna looka too good. Oh, and you can forget about joining any sports teams or participating in athletic events (except Urban Brawl). So, if youre an athlete, it sucks to also be a mage.

2) Is everyday life more difficult for a mage without a SIN

A: It doesnt have to be, but it can if that mage regularly walks around with active foci or sustained illegal spells (you cant get a permit if you dont have a SIN). As sphynx said, the likelihood of a random astrally percieving patrol officer is somewhat rare. However, even with the rarity of full mages being somewhere around 1/1000, thats still about 5000 full mages in seattle alone. If any of them happen to be astrally projecting for leisure (its something I know *I* would do if I could) and spot you, they might call the cops just out of a feeling of civic duty, or whatever. Common? No, but possible and probably not worth the risk. Furthermore, wards and astral security in corporate facilities are *not* rare -- so if "everyday life" includes "shadowrunning", then yes, mages have to worry about more things than mundanes.

Also, not having a SIN sucks in a lot of ways not specific to mages, and all of those things also apply to mages.

A character I made, but never used, was a mage with a paranoia about the "Geek the Mage First" school of thought. He kept a great selection of magical bits and pieces in a case which was rigged out of an old Cyberdeck shell and kept the whole shebang in one of those deck carrying cases slung across his back. He kept his left temple shaved and wore two adhesive fake datajacks there for all to see. Sometimes he went so far as to wear those one-way protective covers that come with cyber eyes so the enemy would think he was anything other than a mage!

Well considering the fact that it's the GM who creates NPC, and there are no rules for creating them specifically, it'd be somewhat easy to min max them if you really wanted to.

Besides, no astrally percieving bodyguard would let a watcher zip towards his boss (CEO with an anchoring focus) even if the spirit had a lone-star badge.

As thge rules are supposed to reflect what happens in the game, looking at the legality code; a mage would probably be pulled-up about a force 6 focus (legality code 2P-T in most areas, even the lowest security neighbourhoods (where the TN for the procedures test is 5) where I doubt they'd send astral patrolls very often. Taking it into a high security neighbourhood or club would be a joke with a TN of -1 for the procedures check. That is, of course, assuming that they do know the force of the focus which they may not be able to do accurately.

The earth is no longer impenetrable, but you can not use fast astral projection speeds when passing through it. It is a slow, tedious process, and you risk becomming lost. This is all described in MITS.

The rules for pressing through earth are in the rules somewhere, but I can't remember where. Maybe MITS.

in any case, its very difficult and slow.

The theory seems to be that you can fly through living things because your aura is stronger, so you push it aside. This causes a 'shudder' that security personnel can be trained to recognise. It might even mean you fail and bounce off if you try it on someone masking but more powerful than you. It also means that going through the living rock is really hard, as is astral travel near the surface of the sea because of all the microbial life in your way. You also cannot pass through astral material such as dual natured beings or spirits. This is why FAB security measures still work.

It takes HOURS to push through any substantial amount of earth/rock, meaning its very easy to die down there as you move at the same speed when returning as well.

All the change in rules has done really is force security companies to invest in wards instead of ivy (or invest in guardian vines instead of ivy...), which are relatively inexpensive except in terms of the time it takes to put them up and the Awakened's hourly rate. It also means that mundane guards have a chance of spotting you if you're careless and fly through one. They'll recognise the symptom and call the magical backup.

EDIt: thinking about it, if someone flies into the earth at fast astral speed, do you even bother giving them a damage check or do you just rip up their character sheet? END EDIT

Although powerful foci are illegal, and spell permits are kept on record, I can't see living as a mage terribly more difficult than living as any other archetype. No one in the SR world gets all their things totally legit, and no one has permits (real or forged) for all the stuff they have. Granted, it's easier to catch mages on an astral level, but I'm betting the average beat cop is looking more often for the illegal weapons and cyberware than the random focus. Personally, I think it'd be about the same either way.

Lone-star are also noted for having top-class magical forensics, IIRC (2nd hand info). They evidently pay well for mages good at assensing and psychometry, getting the cream of the crop.

Wether they'd pay a mage to check random passers-by on a street is highly, highly, dubious. People entering/around a lone-star building? Fine. People being brought-in for questioning or with previous records? Yes. Every car on a busy street? No. Every pedestrian on a busy street? No.

Walking down a street with an active focus would probably be perfectly safe from lonestar attention unless you actually went into a lonestar station or high-security area. If the SSG's lifestyle rules are anything to go on then only Luxury and higher rated areas (AA and AAA) could really expect awakened security.

Lilt's statement is actually rather interesting, IMO. Consider the fact that a mage can quickly and easily survey a few hundred to perhaps a thousand people within a few minutes (if they're astrally projecting and are in the air, they can instantly see every other magically active person or object walking around on the street). Since it's rather unusual for people to sustain powerful spells, it's not unimaginable that a LS mage who's just doing an hour or two hour cruise over the city will manifest in front of said suspect and ask him to produce the paperwork. I don't think it's any more odd than having cops in general just cruising around, checking things out (obviously, the magical cops are going to be significantly less common and will spend a lot less time on their astral beat, but I don't see why they would never ever make a few rounds.)

One also has to wonder, would it be possible to alter the astral signature of a focus to indicate that it's registered? Somehow put on a 'label'? Or would this perhaps be something in which the astral signatures of everyone who has permits for this kind of gear is put on record (or the mage encounters them eventually), then remembers all those signatures when he sees them flying overhead? Either way, each cop will only wonder about each person once, since you always recognize a signature you've seen before, which will make the overhead scans a lot faster.

Well: Those thousands of people he's surveying probably constitute a crowded biomass (+2, maybe even +4 perception TN) and trying to distinguish a particular glow type of glow against the biomass is probably somewhat more difficult, adding between +2 to +4 for camofluage. If the target is a focus under a jacket then it's it's possibly got the +2 partially hidden modifier too, and on any foggy/smoky/smoggy day you get another +1/+2. That puts you reasonably at a TN of Concealability +4 to +8.

That can be fairly high, although there's no base concealability for a human-sized spell aura I wouldn't be surprised if it dosen't fall under the 'immediately obvious' bracket. Looking carefuly at the auras takes Observe In Detail actions, which a mage can do an impressive number of (~7200) of in an hour, but even then he's not guaranteed to identify a focus (which may take more than one success at a TN>6) and will probably scan the same people multiple times. Also such astral mages would probably patroll in pairs, and IIRC full mages (the ones who can project) are even rarer than your general awakened character, thus more valuable, and thus more likely to get a better job than patrolling the street looking at 7200 people's auras every hour for hour after hour...

Telling the difference between a legitimate focus/fetish and the latest Amerind fashion accessory would be difficult, if not impossible for people unable to magically assense.

As for every day complications -- do you wantonly display magical ability? If not, odds are nobody pays you a second glance. At least not because you may (or may not) be magically active.

As much a fan as I am of GTFMF tactical planning, hermetics don't have to gesture or incant to cast their spells, if I remember the magical system correctly. The only requirement is LOS which can very quickly become SOL. This is worse if the mage wears combat fatigues and armor like the rest of the hostiles.

Shamen have to chant/sing/invoke their magical ability, which makes them easier to target than their hermetic bretheren, but previously invoked spirits can make them much more dangerous.

-Siege

GTFMF?

Many shamans would reasonably go in under the cover of a low-force improved invisibility spell which, I think most people agree, hides the shamanic mask whilst leading to the line:
Goon 1: "Geek the Mage!"
Goon 2: "Where?"

It seems to me that a mundane has zero chance of spotting a mage, unless they are casting. The rules in SR3 under noticing magic only talk about casting spells. It even says that noticing active magic is near impossible since most spells are invisible. It only becomes an issue for astrally perceiving characters.

is there a limit to the force of spirit a shaman can conjure too?

Page 163 of the BBB under "The Shamanic Mask"

"or her chants might resemble an eagle's cry."

However, Fortune and Tort are both right -- I'm probably mixing Sam of the first SR trilogy with actual mechanic.

My mistake.

-Siege

Interesting note:

BBB, page 162 "Noticing Magic"

"Noticing if someone is using a magical skill requires a Perception Test. The base Target Number is 4, plus the caster's Magic Attribute, minus the Force of the magic being performed."

-Siege

Keep in mind that the rule only applies to noticing the act of using magic, not the magical effect itself. If a ball of flame leaps from someone's fingers and smacks you in the face, you've got a pretty good clue that they were using magic, even if you didn't notice the spellcasting.

Fireball/flamethrower doesn't work that way. All you are going to notice is that you got hit by a ball of flame etc. You are not going to have any idea who did it.

Yep. But you can always tell that elemental fire magic is at work when people only get surface burns, but ammunition which shouldn't go off at temperatures under ~1500C suddenly explodes, and always straight at the carrier, and similar strange shit goes on with all other explosive substances.

By P182, SR3: Elemental Manipulation spells create damaging mediums in the physical world which the caster directs towrds the target. The matter or energy is stopped by any physical obstuctions in the path. To me that says the caster must create a stream/bolt of fire from somewhere very near him (IE: his hands, eyes, crotch, or ass) that travels and is probably visible in the physical world.

By the spell description:

I would agree with that statement Mardegun, Yes.

A subject will not notice the spell, but if given the chance to observe the spellcaster, has a reasonably good chance to realize what the spellcaster is doing.

Previously, I was unaware that it was possible to realize a hermetic mage was casting a spell except for astral perception or obvious spell effect.

The rule doesn't mention how an observer can discern the magical skill is being used, only that it is.

-Siege

Well: it says that it's based on a magician's intense look of concentration, whispered incantations, small gestures, and shamanic mask. IE: It's a general perception test covering vision and hearing. It thus would be fairly easy to add perception TN mods to that by being invisible and concealed by a spirit whilst wearing a helmet with blackened visor in a dark alley.

They could still see the gout of flame from a flamethrower though.

True, although I was under the impression incantations and gestures qualified as geasa.

-Siege