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Karoline
QUOTE (Daylen @ Feb 28 2010, 07:29 PM) *
pc free spirits cant get their skills above 6? ever or just at char gen?


I think ever. I'm fairly sure there isn't anything in RC about free spirit PCs being exempt from the normal max of six on skills. I could be wrong though and don't mind someone proving me wrong. Wouldn't be too surprised if I'm forgetting that it mentions skill caps as well as attribute caps are based on force.
Brol_The_Mighty
I don't remember seeing anything that exempts them from the skill cap of 6
JoelHalpern
QUOTE (Daylen @ Feb 28 2010, 07:29 PM) *
pc free spirits cant get their skills above 6? ever or just at char gen?


Unless they take the quality that lets characters take skills above 6 (to 7 specifically), PC Free Spirits are PCs, and subject to the PC limits on skills.
And, since a free spirit is not an adept, and can not take bioware, and there are no "boost skill" spells, they can not get their skill any higher. This is not a big deal, since their attributes are (effectively) unlimited, although the cost for very high attributes is very steep.

Yours,
Joel

Daylen
eh? did the rules for skills and attributes switch in SR4? I'm used to attributes being capped at 6 and skills capped at that for char gen but just expensive after that.
JoelHalpern
In SR4, skills are capped at 6 for all metahumans. Hukmans have attributes capped at 6, with other races having modifiers from that.
There are positive qualities to let you bump the limit by one for either an attribute (20bp) or a skill (10 bp).
Except when trying to build outrageous builds, I have not found much use for either one.

Yours,
Joel
Daylen
gota say I'm not a fan of limits.
D2F
QUOTE (Brol_The_Mighty @ Feb 27 2010, 10:48 AM) *
Are Free Spirits a viable PC option? I see the rules for it in RC...but are they actually viable from a point-cost perspective? They look very intersting, and the combinations of critter powers available + mage spells could be pretty sweet....but are they too costly? Even when using Karmagen?

Also, it states that their force attribute affects their minimum AND maximum...what exactly does that mean really? Increasing their Force attribute increases what they start at...AND modifies their maximum? So really, you should be investing in Force, Magic, and Edge then? Lol....am I reading it right?


I think few people realize how broken the Runner's Companion rules for Free Spirit PCs are:

QUOTE (p.92 Runner's Companion)
Free Spirit Attributes
Free spirits have a Force special attribute that starts with a rating of 2. This attribute determines a free spiritís natural minimums and maximums for all attributes. It also acts as the spiritís Magic attribute.


Now, a few lines down we read the following:

QUOTE (p.92 Runner's Companion)
A free spiritís Force rating is the natural maximum for all Physical and Mental attributes, as well as its Edge attributeó
so the player must raise Force if he wishes to raise the remaining attributes. In addition, free spirits have the same Physical, Mental, and Edge attributes as metahuman characters, which all start at 2 (their starting Force) at the start of character generation.


It is clear what the rules intend, but if you take the rules as written, a raise of the Force attribute STILL raises the natural minumum. Notice that th entire segment does not contradict the initial premise and as such still leaves it valid.

So, technically, for a grand total of 315BP you get a F6 Free Spirit PC with all attributes, including edge at 6. That leaves you with only 85 BP for skills and spells, but that should be the least of your worries, with an edge of 6. Not to mention you also et Critter Powers for a total worth of 6 Points, which is massive (especially if you take Regeneration).

Also, keep in mind that this only counts for regular Free Spirit PCs (read: non-possession spirits).

Now, Take a Possession Free Spirit, inhabiting a Troll. Firstly, the rules don't state how much, if any BP you need to pay for the "host", so technically you, could conclude it's a Freebie. But let us assume for a moment, that you Pay the regular Character Build Points for te Host as well. Now, let's Take Troll for 45BP. We won't spend any extra Points for Attributes, but take the Base values instead. They will suffice:

QUOTE (p92. Runner's Companion)
or spirits of possession traditions, the spiritís Physical attributes are added to the attributes of the vessel possessed by the spirit


So, in other words, we end up with the Following:

B: 11
A: 7
R: 7
S: 11

C: 6
I: 6
L: 6
W: 6

Including Immunity to normal Weapons and 6 BP worth of extra Critter Powers (Regeneration, anyone?) and able to earn Karma the regular way.

For a whoping grand total of 360BP.

If you ask me, that's just retarded.
Starmage21
QUOTE (D2F @ Mar 2 2010, 04:22 PM) *
I think few people realize how broken the Runner's Companion rules for Free Spirit PCs are:



Now, a few lines down we read the following:



It is clear what the rules intend, but if you take the rules as written, a raise of the Force attribute STILL raises the natural minumum. Notice that th entire segment does not contradict the initial premise and as such still leaves it valid.

So, technically, for a grand total of 315BP you get a F6 Free Spirit PC with all attributes, including edge at 6. That leaves you with only 85 BP for skills and spells, but that should be the least of your worries, with an edge of 6. Not to mention you also et Critter Powers for a total worth of 6 Points, which is massive (especially if you take Regeneration).

Also, keep in mind that this only counts for regular Free Spirit PCs (read: non-possession spirits).

Now, Take a Possession Free Spirit, inhabiting a Troll. Firstly, the rules don't state how much, if any BP you need to pay for the "host", so technically you, could conclude it's a Freebie. But let us assume for a moment, that you Pay the regular Character Build Points for te Host as well. Now, let's Take Troll for 45BP. We won't spend any extra Points for Attributes, but take the Base values instead. They will suffice:



So, in other words, we end up with the Following:

B: 11
A: 7
R: 7
S: 11

C: 6
I: 6
L: 6
W: 6

Including Immunity to normal Weapons and 6 BP worth of extra Critter Powers (Regeneration, anyone?) and able to earn Karma the regular way.

For a whoping grand total of 360BP.

If you ask me, that's just retarded.


Yay so youve got a lot of natural power, but still crap for skills. Either way, 250BP for free spirits seems a whole lot sexier for the RAW version(which they need BADLY), and the RAI version is the crappy crap crap it is.

I usually spend 100+BP on skills alone, and with the RAW interpretation you presented, having 85bp left after upping force to 6 still means my skills and spells are vastly inferior. Not to mention the 6 people minimum you need to earn karma properly.
D2F
QUOTE (Starmage21 @ Mar 2 2010, 10:52 PM) *
Yay so youve got a lot of natural power, but still crap for skills. Either way, 250BP for free spirits seems a whole lot sexier for the RAW version(which they need BADLY), and the RAI version is the crappy crap crap it is.

I usually spend 100+BP on skills alone, and with the RAW interpretation you presented, having 85bp left after upping force to 6 still means my skills and spells are vastly inferior. Not to mention the 6 people minimum you need to earn karma properly.


With those kind of attributes, you can default on pretty much anything. Plus, you still have 40 BP left for skills. While that's not a whole lot, it's not nothing either, and you still have an Edge of 6. All the while, you are pretty much unstoppable. Just Make sure you take Counterspelling 6 and 4BPs worth of Connections to total up your required Bondsmates.

Also, if you don't take regeneration, some of the available Critter Powers can completely compensate for the Lack of some skills.

Last, but not least, if you absolutely, positively have to have 100 BP worth of skills, you can still drop the Force down to 5, still have regeneration and a grand total of 110 BP for your skills (although, if you still want to take a Possession tradition, you might have to start out without a Troll vessel, so add about 10BP worth of ressources to a Plasteel Vessel and you should be set).

F5 Plasteel Free Spirit PC:

B: 13
A: 4
R: 4
S: 13

C: 5
I: 5
L: 5
W: 5

Armor 8/8, Natural Weapon (Fists) 12P, AP0, plus the regular Powers (optional: Regeneration) and still 100BP left for skills.
Starmage21
QUOTE (D2F @ Mar 2 2010, 04:56 PM) *
With those kind of attributes, you can default on pretty much anything. Plus, you still have 40 BP left for skills. While that's not a whole lot, it's not nothing either, and you still have an Edge of 6. All the while, you are pretty much unstoppable. Just Make sure you take Counterspelling 6 and 4BPs worth of Connections to total up your required Bondsmates.

Also, if you don't take regeneration, some of the available Critter Powers can completely compensate for the Lack of some skills.

Last, but not least, if you absolutely, positively have to have 100 BP worth of skills, you can still drop the Force down to 5, still have regeneration and a grand total of 110 BP for your skills (although, if you still want to take a Possession tradition, you might have to start out without a Troll vessel, so add about 10BP worth of ressources to a Plasteel Vessel and you should be set).

F5 Plasteel Free Spirit PC:

B: 13
A: 4
R: 4
S: 13

C: 5
I: 5
L: 5
W: 5

Armor 8/8, Natural Weapon (Fists) 12P, AP0, plus the regular Powers (optional: Regeneration) and still 100BP left for skills.


It looks pretty spiffy, but you place a crapload of stock in the regeneration power. If I were a primary caster like the free spirit is, I'd be spending a lot more time avoiding bullets at all, toughness or not. TOO many useful powers to pass up that you prretty much gotta take as a free spirit. You cant gain use of them by summoning a spirit!

the Search power is garaunteed success in finding whatever you want. The only requirement is the amount of time it would take for you to find it. Thing is, you have unlimited time as a free spirit, but 8-12 hours from a summoned one.
Brol_The_Mighty
I think Regen would be taken, to make a Power pact a much tastier proposition really. Of course, a number of pacts would be enticing. I know my team's mage would love the Drain pact, and power pact.
D2F
QUOTE (Brol_The_Mighty @ Mar 3 2010, 12:50 AM) *
I think Regen would be taken, to make a Power pact a much tastier proposition really. Of course, a number of pacts would be enticing. I know my team's mage would love the Drain pact, and power pact.


Exactly. Imagine your main Streetsam with his very own personal Regeneration Power.

Aside from that, your Possession Free Spirit can still wear armor. And with a Body of 11 he can still wear a LOT of armor before encumbrance effects kick in. Not to mention immunity to normal weapons.
Daylen
QUOTE (D2F @ Mar 2 2010, 11:59 PM) *
Exactly. Imagine your main Streetsam with his very own personal Regeneration Power.

Aside from that, your Possession Free Spirit can still wear armor. And with a Body of 11 he can still wear a LOT of armor before encumbrance effects kick in. Not to mention immunity to normal weapons.


his armor isnt though!
D2F
QUOTE (Daylen @ Mar 3 2010, 01:01 AM) *
his armor isnt though!


No, but it stacks. Not for the effect of hardened armor, but gives a shit about hardened armor in the first place?

Don't get me wrong. I think it's an extremely cheesy concept, but the RAW would allow it. And I think it is stupid that they would.
Karoline
QUOTE (Daylen @ Mar 2 2010, 07:01 PM) *
his armor isnt though!


His armor isn't immune to normal weapons you mean? True, but anything that can't break the 12 immunity based armor would have the weapon bounce off, and even if they can, they have to deal with the 12 + regular armor to determine stun or P, and then they have to deal with 11 bod + what is left from the 12 immunity armor + the actual armor that is being worn. Can easily soak down about half a dozen boxes, and the 6 reaction is going to cost at least 2 net hits for the initial damage.

The character would be very solid.
Daylen
yes I know true but pointless...
Starmage21
QUOTE (Karoline @ Mar 2 2010, 07:05 PM) *
His armor isn't immune to normal weapons you mean? True, but anything that can't break the 12 immunity based armor would have the weapon bounce off, and even if they can, they have to deal with the 12 + regular armor to determine stun or P, and then they have to deal with 11 bod + what is left from the 12 immunity armor + the actual armor that is being worn. Can easily soak down about half a dozen boxes, and the 6 reaction is going to cost at least 2 net hits for the initial damage.

The character would be very solid.


WHy bother being so tough to begin with? Youre immune to being killed by such methods. Just being knocked out of the fight for a lot less time than it would take for any normal person to recover to fighting strength anyway.


Just because you can, doesnt mean you should, or even that you will
D2F
QUOTE (Starmage21 @ Mar 3 2010, 12:47 AM) *
It looks pretty spiffy, but you place a crapload of stock in the regeneration power. If I were a primary caster like the free spirit is, I'd be spending a lot more time avoiding bullets at all, toughness or not. TOO many useful powers to pass up that you prretty much gotta take as a free spirit. You cant gain use of them by summoning a spirit!

the Search power is garaunteed success in finding whatever you want. The only requirement is the amount of time it would take for you to find it. Thing is, you have unlimited time as a free spirit, but 8-12 hours from a summoned one.


My initial proposal was a combat centric build to emphasize the munchkin potential of the RAW.

If you want to go for a more Playable character, Use this one:

F6 B6 A6 R6 S6 C6 I6 L6 W6 Ed6 M6

Powers:
Materialization, Immunity to normal Weapons, Sapience, Astral Form, Banishment Resistance, Spirit Pact (pick one, preferrably Friendship Pact in this case), Mutable Form, Realistic Form, Concealment, Influence, Guard

Skills:

Influence SG 4
Infiltration 2
Counterspelling 6
Disguise 2

Contacts:
Fixer (C1/L4)
Street Shaman (C1/L4)

And you have the nigh perfect Face character, that can also prevent Glitches for the entire team, Mutate into anyone and anything (even into a working toaster) and provide additional concealment, when stealth is key.

And that is a legal character, if you take the RAW.
Karoline
QUOTE (Starmage21 @ Mar 2 2010, 07:19 PM) *
WHy bother being so tough to begin with? Youre immune to being killed by such methods. Just being knocked out of the fight for a lot less time than it would take for any normal person to recover to fighting strength anyway.


Just because you can, doesnt mean you should, or even that you will


You've answered your own question. Just because it won't kill you doesn't mean you like pain. And also, just because it won't kill you, doesn't mean you don't want to be around. Getting kicked out of the mission halfway through means that your teammates might consider you dead and split up your portion of the pay, or reduce your take since you weren't there for the whole mission.
Daylen
isnt it up to the players and GM, not to be silly, if they dont want a munchkin silly game?
D2F
QUOTE (Daylen @ Mar 3 2010, 01:27 AM) *
isnt it up to the players and GM, not to be silly, if they dont want a munchkin silly game?


Of course. I am only arguing that the RAW are silly. We simply don't allow PC Free Spirits in our Campaign.
Daylen
oh yes I can agree. although long ago I gave up argueing on the sillyness of RAW in any system.
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