I got the book and developed an issue. THE DAMAGE CODES ARE WHACK!

Could someone explain to me what 3M2 (etc.) mean? I think it's First Edition, but I don't know.

Second, should I count the Juggernaut as a vehicle for the purposes of resistence?

Rule of thumb for converting damage codes: add the 2 numbers together and leave the letter.

3m2 becomes 5m
4m3 becomes 7m

so on and so forth...

the damage codes I think are from 2nd ed, which had a different way to stage damage depending on the weapon used. a 3m2 would mean that it's base damage was (3M) however it takes (2) successes to stage the damage to S and then another (2) to stage to Deadly. this is what we pretty much already use in 3rd ed for staging, but some weapons I believe were like 7M3 which would require 3 successes to stage up.

Actually, they are from 1st ed.

The Juggernaught should be considered PC detrimental and left well enough alone.

-Siege

A-fragging-men!

You could always just do what I did once: Make a super-sized Juggernaught using the rules in the critters book (+50% size, +5 to one or more attributes) and give those +5es to Body, Armor, and Quickness.

Sadly the group never found it, they did earmark the swamp it was in as a possible exit route if things went to drek though... I can but dream.

The frightening thing about a juggernaut is theyre anerobic. IIRC They can live with out oxygen. theoretically IIRC you could launch one to the moon and it could live there rest of it's life there without a problem. It can actually eat rocks to survive.

Mwuahaha! Eventually, it would consume the moon and replace it in orbit; Gobbling up reckless space vessels that got too close.

So that's what took-out the novatech probe. Remind me to send these things agains my runners if they ever get to the orbital bank.

Me: "You open the airlock, and come face-to face with a juggernaught! Roll Reaction!"

Super-sized Juggernaut=fun!

"Now, group, either you face a Juggernaut with 47 Strength, or bake me cookies. Kitchen is open."

Hah! They're growing Juggernaught THOR shots!

Incoming Awakened Cow!

-Siege

Hmm. I wonder what would happen if you gave a juggernaught a retractable cyber-railgun? Powered by bio-energy obviously.

[edit]It's got enough strength to carry a light railgun and 30 shots of ammo [/edit]

PAoNA is a first edition sourcebook. Speaking of which I just got a new(er) copy of the first edition hardcover. Looking over some of the old rules makes me wonder how anyone ever found the time to play this game. Oh, and the old rating system worked like this. 4m3 meant that it took 3 sucesses over 4 to accomplish whatever (downstage damage ect...). Get it?

Juggernauts were the most rediculous para-animal ever put in the game. Damn near un-killable, hence the nice federal bounty. I don't think the writers really considered the ramifications of making something able to switch between anaerobic and aerobic metabolism.

Heh. It was the critter that GMs got upset with when their PCs took a look, screamed like school girls and ran in the other direction.

You could always figure out the most upopular party member by who got shot in the leg and left as a Juggernaught speed bump.

-Siege

Yar. That and the players always seem to get strangely pissed when their mode of transport got eaten. You really shouldn't leave a tricked out Ares Dragon un-attended in Juggernaut territory.

Mmm, light snack.

~J

I suspect the anaerobic thing is so nasty GMs can have them happily submerged out of sight ready to jump out at the insignificant boat invading their own personal pond...

PAoNA and PAoE are both 1st ed sourcebooks. But I recommend if you see either of them you pick them up. They are much better books in terms of available in game detail, pictures, scales, everything. We use them as IC reference books available for purchase. Often is the cry heard 'pass me Pattersons, will ya?' when a character wants to look something up and they have either the background skill or a chip copy I-C, because professor patterson is supposedly the leading expert who gathered all the data which makes up the books. The decker comments tend to indicate he's not as good or accurate as he thinks he is, which gives the GM leeway in tweaking powers and stats to keep players on their toes.

Great books, even if the game stats require a bit of conversion. Basically the stats and powers part of the books in our game are considered non-existant (stats - which realistically don't exist in-game anyway so the characters couldn't look them up in the first place) or superceded in the Critters book (powers), but the pictures, habitat, habits, and ecology sections are all reasonably accurate, though in many cases not 100% or covering all variations of the creature and its behaviour.

IMHO, if you want to make use of critters well in your game, you need all three books - the 1st PA books and the 3rd ed Critters booklet which comes with the GM screen. The 3rd ed book really only contains the briefest of summaries in comparison.

So how would one convert the Juggernaut to 3rd ed. terms?

there should be a stat difference between anerobic and aerobic (i don't recall if there was a diff in PAoNA; if there was, please disregard). i'd lower Qui and Str by 4-5 each, and nix its ability to run at all.

Umm... For a Juggernaut it should just be assumed that it can eat anything and cannot possibly be killed by anything less than an orbital strike or a heavy naval scale weapon. Basically they are miniature forces of nature dedicated to consumption. Best used as an impersonal motivational force for a run or two set in the wilderness. However, if anyone else wants to take a crack at stating it here on the board, props in advance.

Does Mind Control work on critters?

I don't think so.

And I hope not.

i wouldn't go that far, hundred-arms. after all, where's the fun in trying to collect the bounty on them, if you just make them superhuman NPCs?

I didn't say that they couldn't be killed, just that it's extremely unlikely. I guess you could just make a really big ass bomb and then try to get the damn thing to eat it. I would think that 25 kg of c12 would be enough to take the things head off. Other than that, look at the stats man and see if you can figure a way to kill it.

It's like giving stats to a Great Dragon. Sure, it's nice to know the numbers but are you going to seriously try to kill one?

That being said, I would imagine a Barret round to it's eyeball would have to count for something. Not that you can really do that in SR mechanics, but the bait doesn't have to know that.

-Siege

Great Dragon!

I just had this awesome idea: deathmatching uber-critters of various kinds. Juggernauts, dragons, AI's... (Well, the AI could use drones or something.)

How much do the original stats differ from those in the 3rd ed critters handbook?

As for mind-control: Possible, but juggernaughts in the critters book have a willpower of 9. With the threshold on mind-control spells, you're talking about a less than 1% chance of succeeding (force 6 with 12 dice to cast). Mind control would be more effectively used on a lower willpower creature...

Mage to Sam: "What's your willpower?"

[edit]Also: Levitate yourself up 30 meters or so (I don't know how high juggernaughts can jump, but no mage underestimates more than once) and watch the show...[/edit]

I eagerly await anyone who can tell me a canon way to kill one of these things easily. I am thinking something along the lines of a FAB. (Fuel Air Bomb) 25000 pounds of accelerant should do the trick. (I will give a cookie to the first dork to correctly tell me the damage code on one of these miracles of modern warefare.)

1 aircraft missile pod can hold 300kg of rockets/missiles. Basic rockets/missiles from the rulebook do 16D, and weight 3.25 kg. That's about 90 per pod. They are also dirt cheap, comparitively (5000Y per missile), though tricky to get ahold of at availability 12 each. Fire two pods at a Juggernaut and I don't care whether it has 8 points of hardened armour and 15 body dice (both of which it does have!), its toast.

There aren't any rules for stacking missile fire, but even if you make it soak 180 individual 16D hits at half armour, by about missile 20 it will still probably be dead, even if its soaking every other hit completely and the rest down to a light, which is highly unlikely.

Sounds pretty reliable.

Yup. a .50 BMG round should be able to do it too. IIRC all ammo for the Barett is trearted as APDS, thus the hardened armor is halved to 4 and, even with only 1 net success, 10D is on-average not gonna be reduced below D even with 23 dice (full body + combat pool), add extra successes to taste.

Of-course: That's why you give them the +50% size mod for +5 body, +5 armor, and +5 quickness.

Heh, and if you're really up for the Evil GM Award of the Century then you could always have a few undergo SURGE...

Regeneration....

And dual nature to eat astral forms....

And 'Binding' spit. Mmm... steamrollered PCs...

Mage Spell: Dig Massive Pit

Taunt Juggernaught into chasing bait. As bait nears pit, Mage casts Levitate on bait and yanks the elf out of the way while Juggernaught tumbles into pit.

Then figure out what the hell to do with it.

-Siege

Throw the elf in to keep it busy.

Then leave.

Hmm. If only ranged weapons worked on the astral. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but as cyber enhancements stay on the astral, then so too would cyber weapons. This theoretically means a mage could do extra damage with cyberspurs in astral combat, now if-only we could install that cyber-railgun in the Juggernaught. [edit]and make it dual natured[/edit]

Interesting ideas guys. Here's my thoughts.

I would say that emptying a missle pod is more than enough to sink a ship and therefor constitutes dealing naval grade damage.

The Barret would work, but it would take 2-4 shots to do it.

Couldn't the Juggernaut just eat it's way out of the pit? Which brings up another idea, why aren't these things gradually eating the planet?

And lastly, no one even mentions laser weapons. Now that I think about it it seems like that would be the easiest way to drop one of these bastards.

Eventually, the juggernaught could manage a way out of the pit, but if the spell digs it deep enough, the "hunting" party should have enough time to figure out something.

Even if it involves running like hell.

-Siege

Since Juggernauts are magic critters.... wouldnt they just die if they left earth? The whole deep space thing and all?
And also lets just bribe the juggernaut to leave us alone we will give it a sacrificial troll ^_^

Ahh... 7m3 It has been a long time old friend. Makeing me feel all sentimental and stuff.

Ahhh rolling firearms for each bullet from a burst fire weapon. I certainly don't feel sentimental for that at all.

Don't forget the amour ratings counting as automatic successes or the way you could spend Karma to get them without needing to roll one.

Force 20 Fire elemental summoning? Hey I gots ten points o'Karma to blow on successes and another 8 to resist the drain! Hmmm, Oh deary me....

We still have that karma rule. But we give out higher than average karma, so we invent ways to spend it!

Anyway, that aside, the missile pod might constitute naval damage (if there were rules for staging multiple missle shots anyway), but its a damn sight easier to arrange than an actual naval weapon, so I still consider it a reasonable canon way of dealing with the fraggers.

The reason why they aren't eating the planet is because they breed slow and generally have a bounty on them. If there's money involved, you can guarantee there are people out there who have figured out a fairly reliable way of taking them down, which will also account for plenty. Young ones are probably a lot easier to kill as well, which would make the infant mortality rate quite high for their size.

As for Juggernauts, I came up with this great scene. PC's are walking through the mountains for some reason, when suddenly:

GM: Roll Perception.
(Players roll)
GM: That's not a mountain in front of you. Roll initiative.

I just can't see the big deal about the Jugster. It's armor rating is only equal to Medium Hardened Military Grade, and the Body rating can easily be beaten by any old Troll. A DermalSheath-3+TitaniumBoneLacing Heavy+Helmet Milgrade Cyclops is immune to the Jugger, and can just beat it to death in unarmed combat.

Or if you think such cyclopses are rare, just use an Ork with DS-3+Tit+MediumSec armor: You can beat the Juggernator in melee combat easily, and in case it gets a hit through you can soak it without breaking a sweat. Any old Sniper Rifle is plenty powerful enough to kill a Juggy, especially with APDS ammo. And if you're really afraid of the Jugg-Man, just keep a Grand Dragon ATGM with you whenever you're in potentially Jug-infested territory.