This has likely been hashed over somewhere else, but my searches have brought up alot of things that dont really relate to my question.

The average person has around 3 Willpower. Give or take a point. The average caster has around 4 spellcasting and 4 magic (not even playing min max). So if my understanding of the rules is correct, a mage rolls 8 dice against a measly 3 willpower. And when the target(s) usually fail to avoid it they automatically take the full Force of the spell plus net hits. With no way to migitate the damage. One or two of those will stun someone to sleep or kill em outright in the case of manabolt (ball). But manabolts arnt even nessesary if you stun and preform a coup de grace.

So, short over over populating the world with counter spelling mages, how do mundane folk (like Runners or security personel) survive that?

Well, the short answer is that they don't.

The long answer is that they don't, which is why the general populace as a whole tends to fear and distrust people who can use magic. It's precisely because of that vulnerability that laws in the Sixth World tend to be a little stricter towards those who can use magic.

The best way to survive that is to shoot the mage in the face before they get you.

This is also why security personnel and experienced runners alike live under a single rule when it comes to combat against opposition including Awakened: Drop the mage first.

Of course the utter scarcity of the Awakened helps a bit. Only 1% of the metahuman population is Awakened, and only a portion of those with the Talent actually develop it. And of those that do develop it, full magicians are the smallest group, with most being adepts and mystic adepts. Then figure that the majority of even this limited population are more or less normal, law abiding folk with no connection to either criminal activity or security operations (I may have imagined reading this, but there's a quote bouncing in my brain about the majority of them being into academics or research), and the overall threat level of mages remains fairly even with that of other attack forms; physical and matrix.

Sure, the one in two hundred runners a security force faces that's a strong, capable, criminal mage is a massive threat in and of themselves. But not so much as to overpower the other, more common threats to their lives and safety.

well...... The corps hire their own magical support, the governments have their own magical support.....

really, you survive magic the same way you survive being mugged at gunpoint- for most people its not something to worry about. Sure it could happen, but it probably wont unless you go into the wrong part of town. as long as you stay in a safe neighborhood and work for a good company, youll be fine.

and really, the corp mages are there to deal with enemy magic, the drone net and armed gaurds and paracritters are there to kill everything else. magic is a very high specialization after all.

Drones geek mages so hard it's not even funny.

Stun spells don't work on them, they have heavy resistance to physical spells, and they often carry big, scary weapons and have decent armor. Pretty much the bane of every mage in existence that doesn't happen to also carry a rocket launcher.

Or a spirit with the Accident power. Or just a spirit in general.

Where is a drone's heavy resistance to physical spells coming from? I can't find any mention that an indirect combat spell has to overcome its object resistance. And while drones do often have impressive armor for their size, such spells are resisted by half impact armor. So a drone gets hit, cuts their armor by half then takes that total doubled (objects resist indirect combat spells with armor x2), which will usually end up being their original armor total again.

In short, a drone is no more or less resistance to a firebolt than your average armored runner. And against electricity or water elemental effects can be much more vulnerable.

I played in a game where we had a heavy magical complement, 1 full combat mage and three spellcasting adepts, and we walked all over everything we met initially...until our actions invoked an escalation in response. Para-critters became more common, and astral defenses nastier. Then the corps started using nasty nasty pharmaceuticals to wipe out the focus needed for magic on their sites, hiring merc mages, summoning bigger and badder spirits. Fatbac!

There is a lot the corps can do to drop the hammer on rogue mages.

Ordinary folks, however, will get walked over.

Unless they get initiative...

Out numbering some one a thousand to one never hurt either.

Indirect combat spells consistently have higher DV than their direct cousins. Not to mention, you HAVE to use physical damage spells to even touch a drone, which makes the drain even worse. The lowest drain indirect combat spell that can affect drones is the corrode/melt/sludge line, which is pretty much the slay spell for drones. AT BEST you are dealing with Force/2 with a touch spell. More likely, you'd do a Melt Spell targeting Electronics or something, which is Force/2+2.

This space for rent.

Don't piss off mages.
Make sure that if you do piss off a mage, you have enough witnesses that can call in security (because even a mage can be arrested)
Don't let the mage see you (either by not wandering around where mages are, by using tinted glass or closing the door behind you, or by just sticking to the shadows - combine this with enforced 'do not enter areas' and you're golden)
Using technology, especially drones and card readers, which are extremely mage proof

I'd say non-min maxed mages have a problem with drones.

Magic 5
Spell Casting 6(spec combat spells)
Totem (combat spells)
Power Focus 4(bought with lots of BP and the 5 point perk that gives you access to up to Avail 20 gear) Sadly this is really worth it because of how much you save on binding it. It kind of works in my mind because you are spending BP on buying it, instead of in game where your karma and money are different pools.
= 19 dice for throwing a power bolt, you will usually hit the threshold necessary to obliterate a drone. If it was Power Ball you also obliterated a 9 meter radius with the drone.

While we were aggressively testing some of the rules I had built a character like this. Magic wasn't even my only trick thanks to charisma being the awesome stat that it is and a drain stat. It usually took 2 spells to take out a citymaster or other heavy vehicle though.

Is that all, Physical spell is +1 modifier, elemental is +2, shouldn't that be f/2+3 or does the corrode line have a cost break for some reason.(I am assuming corrode=acid or something)

f/2+2 isn't that hard to resist. Force 7 lets say= 5 drain yeah you need 15 dice to soak it completely, but is it that bad to take 1 or 2 boxes now and then when fighting your weak spot.

Do keep in mind that the object resistance of a drone is 6 or MORE. The GM could easily adjust resistances on a drone to 10 or something, making direct spells a bit iffy on them.

Bullets cost 2 nuyen, and everyone can get as many as they need....

The spell line I was talking about will only affect a specific material that is chosen at its creation. The GM may rule you need to make a hole in the armor or something, or that that spell line won't even affect drones period. Looks like it's more like force/2+3 for a spell that will consistently smack a drone.

Hey Shinobi Killfist... I thought that you were talking about NON Min-Maxed Mages... That would be Magic 3 and Spellcasting 3, No Power Focus, I will give them the Mentor and Specialization though... That would be 10 Dice to overcome Threshold of 5 (Object Resistance Anyone?) with Direct Combat Spells... Elemental Attack Spells are same dice pool, Generally Higher Drain, and can be Dodged (the Drone gets a Reaction roll against the spell... and THEN it gets to resist the Damage... The Average Mage is pretty hosed against the average Drone... in my opinion...

But then again... Shadowrunning mages are generally a cut above average...

Keep the Faith

While drain does act as a limiting factor to mages in how strong they make their spells, it does not in itself make drones more resistant to magic. And the best way to drop drones in my experience has always been electrical spells. Drones take the physical damage from ball lightning (remembering that metal armor provides NO PROTECTION), then have to roll their body + armor vs. the initial spellcasting test to avoid being shutdown for at least 2 combat turns. And if a mage needs more time than that to either deal with the threat or get out of there, then they deserve to get gacked. While this tactic isn't hard to defend against (nonconductive armor modification isn't exactly expensive after all), such defenses aren't on the standard equipment lists of any drone I can think of without digging.

If nothing else, it gives them time enough to get a spirit in to be their 'meat' shield (or, at least, to shield their meat).

Actually... Object Resistance of Drones is 5+... See the SR4A Book for the relevant Object Resistance Ratings... The Table is on Page 183...

Keep the Faith

However, I imagine that the Ceramic Armor is perfectly useable against that Electrical Damage, and you STILL have to actually hit the Drone... against that Elemental Damage Spell, you still get the Drone's reactive Dodge and afdter that, you STILL have to actually hurt it... And don't forget... Lightning Bolt is Force/2+3 Drain and Lightning Ball is Force/2+5... That is no joke for soaking your drain...

As for Standard Equipment... DO YOU use Drones with Standard Equipment... Nonconductive Armor is the FIRST thing I generally install on the Drone, for that very reason...

Keep the Faith

And the object resistance only matters against direct combat spells, not indirect ones.

Leaving the realm of combat spells, you get to any manipulation spell that affects electronic sensors. If it's being cast on you, then the object resistance doesn't apply, although I confess that I don't know how else such spells would be affected as far as a drone trying to 'see' around them.

EDIT: All below added after I realized that TJ had responded to my post while I was typing this one.

And yes, nonconductive armor is very nearly the first thing I pull out to add to my gear for any character. But the OP's question was dealing with brick-average mundanes. I took this to include brick-average drones as well. And if brick-average drone armor was naturally nonconductive, then that wouldn't be an available modification option as it wouldn't be needed.

And again, as I stated above, drain is of course a limit on how strong a mage will want to make their spells. But it is not in itself something that makes drones more resistant to magic.

Highly Processed Objects
(Computers, Complex Toxic Wastes, Drones, Vehicles)
6+

That's what my SR4A book tells me.

Apparently you have an inaccurate Copy... Both My Copy of the Book and the Current PDF state 5+...
AS I said... On Page 183...

A combat-oriented shadowrunner of any stripe can usually take down an "average" person fairly easily. Runners tend to have better Willpower and higher Edge, and are also more likely to have friendly counterspelling handy. Security guards are likely to have magical backup, too, as well as a security setup designed to give intruders visual penalties and give the guards visual cover. Depending on the type of facility, there might also be a background count to deal with.

Personally, I think spirits present more potential problems to mundanes than spells. A high Force spirit can pretty much waltz through a moderate level of mundane opposition unscathed. On the other hand, wards (which should be fairly common) can reign them in a great deal.

One thing to remember about magic is that it might be rare in general, but it is fairly common in certain areas such as shadowunning, corporate security, and underworld factions.

SR4A, my copy as well, has a 5+ in that spot on the table.

Yup, same page. Guess my PDF is outdated or something.

The comment on the GM "increasing" a drone's object resistance stands, however.

I dislike it when the rules add things like that. It basically just supports the "do whatever you want" fiat a GM already has without regard for the intended purpose of rules in an RPG: To give solid, well-defined methods of resolving conflicts and interactions. When you have a rule that basically says "5 or, yanno, whatever the hell you want to use," it's pretty damn lame. Especially when people start latching on to it in discussions like this one.

Any spell that causes electric damage can fry a drone.
Heck, anything that causes electric damage can fry a drone.

I was, my example was an atrocity that is min maxed, showing how they don't have a problem with drones. A what I consider a normal shadowrunning mage, they would have problems.(I usually am throwing 9-12 dice for magic at the start)



Sure, but a drone would be a hard sell IMO for increasing the threshold, especially when it is one of the example for 5+. Now the citymaster I mentioned that i can see having a 6 or higher OR threshold due to its complexity+size. Unfortunately there are not even guidelines on how to deal with the + aspect of this. Is it size, extra complexity, what makes it go past 5.

Thank you all very much. Drones seem the answer to the mana based mage for mundane runners and and security alike. While not foolproof, they at least up the survivability without increasing mage population numbers. Oh, and a couple of hell hounds too

Against a mage that loves their mana spells, drones are a good answer.

Yes, and paracritters, too.

Why paracritters?

On the level of a lone security guard, mages are terrifying; there's little helping that. On the corporate security level, there are a lot of ways to limit the damage they can do;

- Use teams of varied composition (guard AND drones), so that overspecialized mages get in trouble
- Don't stand near together; that way the mage needs more than one fireball
- Avoid long lines of sight
- Use bound spirits for fast response;
- Plenty of Wards
- Cramped areas limit the use of area spells; mages prefer not to hit themselves, but decreasing spell diameter also costs dice on the spellcasting test
- Use many layered defenses; exhaust the mage by making him cast lots of spells
- All guards are trained to take cover, making LOS harder to establish
- Kill the lights and pour in thermal smoke; the HTR team will use ultrasound or radar
- Background Count
- You can, if you're extreme, hide bombs under the floor; if you've detected a mage, lure him over the bomb and detonate. With hard-wiring and through a secure, separate system of course. You can always claim that the magical terrorist justified extreme response.

Also, any criminal act committed with magic is automatically Premeditated under UCAS law, according to Street Magic. High-Force castings tend to leave impressive astral signatures; the time it takes to clean them up helps your HTR team arrive in time to catch them.

Well, there's various other magical stuff (from paracritters to awakened plants to wards to background counts to other mages) that can be used to cut down on the effectiveness of spellslingers.

However, for limiting mages via strictly mundane means, mostly it comes down to two things:

Object resistance: For most things that you're going to be using against an enemy mage, this will be significantly harder to overcome than another metahuman's opposed roll - not to mention that many of the popular direct combat (and illusion) spells don't work against electronic devices at all.

Visibility: Mages need line of sight to target spells at all. Find a way to completely deny that (one-way glass for your vehicle's (or PMV's) windows, for instance) and you're no longer a valid target for their spells at all. Failing that, rack up the visibility penalties as much as you can to hamper their spellcasting. You'll need to invest a bit more to make sure that you're not being blinded by it too, but

Combine these for maximum effect. Rather than just sending in a handful of Dobermans toting LMGs to deal with the mage, kill the lights, toss a few thermal smoke grenades and flash-paks into the room, -then- send in the Dobermans toting LMGs (and equipped with radar) in to gun down the almost-blind mage who's still left with the less enviable choice between high-drain indirect spells and direct spells that need to get through Object Resistance while suffering massive dice-penalties (potentially as high as -10) because they can barely see where they're throwing magic.

Just throw a murdercycle at the mage. Problem solved.

Oh, hey... Visibility modifiers affect a mages spellcasting roll? Its not as simple as "Oh, I can see that guy, it might only be a shadowy blob, but thats enough for LoS. Fire in the hole!"

To have a bound Focus at chargen you must spend BP equal to its Force. You're right: if this wasn't the case, Foci at chargen would be a ridiculously good deal, but that's not the case, so it's a little more balanced.

Cover will also give the target of the spell a bonus to DP they are using to resist.

It's still a good deal; binding it costs 32 karma if you do it later on.

Agreed. Hence "a little more balanced."

Here are some ideas for corporate security procedures to deal with mages.

Your average guard will as easily fall to a stun bolt as it would to a well placed taser dart. That why security calls in every 5-10 minutes. Back up teams do tend to have mages, not to mention your not so average security guard. While mages are rare compare to the general populace, they do tend to concentrate in certain areas, one of those areas is runners AND security.

We also have cameras, sensors, etc. to spot the unconscious (or dead) guards. While it is generally relatively easy to be not detected, missing security guards are easily spotted. That's when back-up is called in and your troubles start.

Your generally not hired to take out the average security guard, they are just an obstacle that you have to overcome to get at the real price. If your solution is to stun them (or kill them), you have already failed.

Runners are a fact of corporate live, theft etc. is accepted and your role in it is generally forgiven, so long as your willing to work for everyone. The moment your causing a lot of collateral damage, such as dozens and dozens of dead security guards, your going to be hunted down. Equipment is generally easily replaced (a couple of drones, a blown security door, lots of broken windows), but training people is really expensive and the corp wants wage slaves that feel moderately save when working for the corp. I'm not saying that a megacorp will go ballistic over a couple of casualties, but systematically eradicating security forces is going to make you rather powerful enemies.

Using a stun bolt or a any spell for that matter leaves a trail that can be followed back to you if someone is dedicated enough...

Its more that in the copy of the BBB I have there is no reference to them NOT needing to over come OR, and as such the general rule of you need to overcome OR applies.

Cool, SO I was not going Insane there... Glad to have that clarified...

I too start my Mage characters aroung the 9-12 Dice Range... My Current Backup Character hasa a SPellcasting pool of 9 for Manipulation Spells (5 for everything else)... it is an interesting character...

Keep the Faith

Given that they make a point of specifying in the rules for Direct Combat spells that you have to overcome OR, make no mention of it in the rules for Indirect Combat spells, and the example given (on p.196 of SR4 and p.204 of SR4A) involves using an Indirect Combat spell against a drone and makes no mention of overcoming OR (and, indeed, does not have enough net successes to overcome the OR of a drone), I think that it's fairly clear that lack of such a reference is an oversight.

That being said, it is a true statement that RAW does not contain an exception for Indirect Combat spells overcoming OR.

Speaking of mundanes and attempting to intelligently avoid a mage eating them, the mage goggles seem particularly rediculously effective. Visual light periscope able to see around corners and a very small chance to see the fiberoptic channel, by the time they're done panicking an entire room could be stun-bolted in a few IP's. Even intelligent defense fails when you can't see what you're defending from.

I realize this is as similar as a mage with a lot of hits in improved invis (or just invis) in a room doing the same but without the -2.

Did I miss something regarding the mage-gogs, or are they truly this powerful? If so, I can't picture a mage without them.

Sure but a rating 4 power focus ends up costing I think 24 BP instead of 100,00 and 32 karma. That is a great deal, but i'm not sure its unbalanced. The big issue with balance and resources is how worth it it is highly depend son the generosity of the GM. If you have a stingy GM, I recommend putting 50 in resources for virtually every character. If your GM is a bit freer with cash, you can buy whatever you want later. Now in this case I'm not really sure how 24 BP stacks up to 32 karma on its own, and depending on how stingy your GM is kind of determines how much better of a deal it is for 24BP compared to 32 karma and 100,000 nuyen.



It is fairly accurate there is a penalty for using mage goggles, and it is the same for sustaining a spell so unless your spirit or spell focus is holding that invis you are at -2 there as well. But you can do the same thing with a smart gun link and a gun/grenade launcher etc. Sure the gun is more obvious but you really aren't out of cover when doing it. I personally think its stupid so I wont do it in game and I hope to never see it. The mental image of people on both sides hiding fully behind cover with just there guns and fiber optic cables exposed just squelches any enjoyment i could get out of the game.

Oddly the faq now says mages can cast spells using senses other then sight, so this one works both ways now.
(edit) or just have the mage set off a radar and ultrasound jammer and cast using astral perception, now EVERYONE is blind except for dual natured creatures.


If this is very common in your game, then you're over using it.


Until word of this leaks out, and micro drones tap into the system and start setting it off around VIP's


The time is either 1 round or one IP per force point. So ya, that can be pretty bad, and unless you've got the edges which mitigate this, it could really bite any mage in the ass rather easily.