I wasn't arguing otherwise, I was just -- honestly -- asking what made you think that. Fields of Fire (along with my much-mourned Lone Star Sourcebook and several other old school SR books of mine) went missing a long time ago, and I don't recall any of the artwork from it. The only SuperMach reference I've got is the CC, and there's no artwork in there (and no "100" in the name).
S'why I was asking. It wasn't a "hey, jackass, I think you're wrong, prove me otherwise!" sort of question. It really was just me going "what makes you say that?"
The SuperMach is my shooter-of-choice's weapon-of-choice (specialization around a 10 or so, IIRC), and it's all been done in SR3 without me having an idea of what it looks like (in-game, I've been picturing it as a Mac 10 or similar, given the company name and having nothing else to work with). It's why I was curious about what other information you had.
Full Version: What's your Favorite SMG?
Sorry, Critias. I didn't mean to come across so harshly.
I just REALLY like my guns...
I just REALLY like my guns...
I just checked my materials, and with a pic of a Ingram SM 100 beside one of a Calico and a P90, I have to say it gets more of it's looks from the Calico side of the family.
The handgrip assembly looks somewhat generic, compared to the wierdly ergonomic design of the P90.
Regarding the Ingram Smartgun, I wish they had drawn it with a different stock. Actually, I wish they hadn't taken just a MAC-10, put some gizmos on it, and call it 2050s cutting edge tech. Even the movie Blade 2 did a better looking MAC-10 mod.
In my game, I am tempted to replace it with the Ruger MP9.
Ruger MP9
The handgrip assembly looks somewhat generic, compared to the wierdly ergonomic design of the P90.
Regarding the Ingram Smartgun, I wish they had drawn it with a different stock. Actually, I wish they hadn't taken just a MAC-10, put some gizmos on it, and call it 2050s cutting edge tech. Even the movie Blade 2 did a better looking MAC-10 mod.
In my game, I am tempted to replace it with the Ruger MP9.
Ruger MP9
silenced sten
I have no experience with real guns. In SR terms, I tend to agree with Cray: since the release of Cannon Companion there has been no real place for SMGs in the arsenal of a Prime Runner. A proper bullpup-style assault rifle ends up with concealment an SMG envies, while retaining higher power, better range, and more and better options for modifications.
The only real disadvantage is you can't dual-wield ARs like you can SMGs, but seriously, who ever dual-wields SMGs anyway? Oh, and they'll cost what amounts to an insignificantly larger amount, so you have an excuse to have guards and gangers use SMGs, but don't expect players to care about dithering away a few thousand extra for a clearly far superior piece of hardware.
As far as FPS games go, I've always preferred the MP5 to the Thompson. I don't know how 'realistic' it is, but games tend to give the MP5 better range and tighter shot grouping in bursts, which gives it some allure as the more finesse-based weapon to the trench-sweeping broom of the Thompson.
Again, I have no idea how well that matches reality, that's just how it shakes up in the games. Don't have a conniption over it if that's not how things really work, no one thinks video games are real.
The only real disadvantage is you can't dual-wield ARs like you can SMGs, but seriously, who ever dual-wields SMGs anyway? Oh, and they'll cost what amounts to an insignificantly larger amount, so you have an excuse to have guards and gangers use SMGs, but don't expect players to care about dithering away a few thousand extra for a clearly far superior piece of hardware.
As far as FPS games go, I've always preferred the MP5 to the Thompson. I don't know how 'realistic' it is, but games tend to give the MP5 better range and tighter shot grouping in bursts, which gives it some allure as the more finesse-based weapon to the trench-sweeping broom of the Thompson.
Again, I have no idea how well that matches reality, that's just how it shakes up in the games. Don't have a conniption over it if that's not how things really work, no one thinks video games are real.
| QUOTE (Lucifer) |
| since the release of Cannon Companion there has been no real place for SMGs in the arsenal of a Prime Runner. |
The problem with that mindset is that, for the most part, it's only true if you use the horrifically lame firearm creation rules, specifically, from Cannon Companion. And if you are, well, there's no fucking reason to ever use a pistol again, either, since you can make a cut-down rifle or shotgun that's a hojillion times better.
When picking and choosing from among published and "catalog listed" brands and styles of weaponry, SMG's fill a pretty solid niche, I think. There are times a full-on assault rifle or shotgun isn't practical, and times a pistol just isn't quite enough. I call those times "most urban Shadowruns."
And I know a few "Prime Runners" who violently agree with me.
| QUOTE (brohopcp) |
| silenced sten |
aw yeah, we got an old school guy in the crowd.
| QUOTE (Ed_209a) |
| I just checked my materials, and with a pic of a Ingram SM 100 beside one of a Calico and a P90, I have to say it gets more of it's looks from the Calico side of the family. The handgrip assembly looks somewhat generic, compared to the wierdly ergonomic design of the P90. Regarding the Ingram Smartgun, I wish they had drawn it with a different stock. Actually, I wish they hadn't taken just a MAC-10, put some gizmos on it, and call it 2050s cutting edge tech. Even the movie Blade 2 did a better looking MAC-10 mod. In my game, I am tempted to replace it with the Ruger MP9. Ruger MP9 |
I'm still leaning towards the P90, with a few minor reservations.
1. The magazine is placed too far back, and does look like a Calico magazine.
2. The handgrip isn't quite as rounded as the P90, but is certainly close in design.
3. The Ingram SM 100 doesn't have the built-in optics the P90 has, but it does have a similar front sight.
Here's a pic of the P90, for anyone interested:
FN P90
Here's the Calico, for comparison:
Calico SMG
I would say that the Ares HVAR and the HV MP-LMG are members of the Calico family, but that's just a guess on my part.
If anyone has the ability to post the picture of the Ingram SuperMach 100 from Fields of Fire, please do so.
As for the Ingram Smartgun, it sounds like we're on the same page. As for the folding stock, the original drawing in the Street Samurai Catalog actually has the correct stock on it.
Ingram MAC10
I still say if they're gonna draw it with a suppressor on it, they should at least put it in the stats. Just my opinion.
Funny thing is, in the 2nd Edition rulebook they also mention the Ingram Mk. 22. This one sentence is hidden in the description of the Uzi III:
| QUOTE |
| The very similar Ingram Mk. 22 omits the laser sight. |
In the 1st Edition rulebook, there was a short story describing the scene on the cover of the book, involving Dodger, Sally Tsung, and Ghost. I believe that Ghost, the street samurai in the cover picture, was said to be using dual Ingrams. That's pretty much the only info I've ever seen on this obscure weapon. It's not listed in any of the price lists anywhere, as far as I know. The only other place I've ever seen it was in the Sega Genesis version of Shadowrun. I've always imagined this weapon to be very similar to a stock MAC10.
So, we now have the Ingram Mk. 22 and the Ingram Smartgun, which are both different variations of the same basic weapon. The only Ingram that really stands alone is the Ingram Warrior 10, as it doesn't have the magazine in the pistol grip, as the other Ingrams do. Just some food for thought.
| QUOTE (Fix-it) | ||
aw yeah, we got an old school guy in the crowd. |
Thank you, I'll consider that a compliment.
| QUOTE (Lucifer @ Oct 29 2005, 04:12 AM) |
| The only real disadvantage is you can't dual-wield ARs like you can SMGs, but seriously, who ever dual-wields SMGs anyway? |
Some of my PCs do, actually. And they're hardly alone in my circle of SR-playing deviants.
I take it you've never been on the receiving end of dual supermachs firing suppressing fire down a hallway. Mmm... "Dodge this!"
Yup - a non-explosive AoE attack. 
Unless of course you indulge EX-EX ammo...
-Siege
Unless of course you indulge EX-EX ammo...
-Siege
Who, me? Never...
Just like I'd never use Searching Fire with dual supermachs.
Just like I'd never use Searching Fire with dual supermachs.
| QUOTE (SL James) | ||
Some of my PCs do, actually. And they're hardly alone in my circle of SR-playing deviants. I take it you've never been on the receiving end of dual supermachs firing suppressing fire down a hallway. Mmm... "Dodge this!" |
Actually, I have. I was playing a cybered troll at the time. A 'hailstorm' of single-shot attacks from a 6L weapon, at +2 penalty with no Combat Pool for the attacker, is an absolute joke to a well-armored and cybered sammy. I was - what's the polar opposite of impressed, again? Oh, right, completely unscathed.
You're right, Mr. Troll couldn't dodge it. He didn't really have to, though, since it amounted to a wave of peanuts. Target Number 2 for Damage Resistance with over twice as many dice as the shooter's rolling against Target Number 4 (minimum) for the attack... doubt I have to do the math for you, eh?
There are runs where an AR is inappropriate, but I find a nice heavy or machine pistol works just fine for them, especially if you're using the Cannon Companion to add burst-fire heavy pistols to the lineup.
You certainly [/I]can[I] use SMGs, and you're more than welcome to do so, but as far as I'm concerned the skill points are better spent in other weapons. That's not an attempt to disparage SMGs, but rather the Shadowrun rules governing them.
Wow. I'm so impressed.
I forget sometimes that people use the canon fucked-up rules where you can have an outline of bullets surround your immobile body while suffering a single gunshot. I use the rules where if you don't dodge or take cover you die.
I forget sometimes that people use the canon fucked-up rules where you can have an outline of bullets surround your immobile body while suffering a single gunshot. I use the rules where if you don't dodge or take cover you die.
| QUOTE (Critias) |
| And if you are, well, there's no fucking reason to ever use a pistol again, either, since you can make a cut-down rifle or shotgun that's a hojillion times better. |
Not quite true—even if you make them as concealable as a pistol, you still can't stick them in a concealable holster or quickdraw them without an adept power.
~J
| QUOTE (Critias) |
| When picking and choosing from among published and "catalog listed" brands and styles of weaponry, SMG's fill a pretty solid niche, I think. There are times a full-on assault rifle or shotgun isn't practical, and times a pistol just isn't quite enough. I call those times "most urban Shadowruns." And I know a few "Prime Runners" who violently agree with me. |
I'd agree 100%. Rifles and assault rifles really aren't doable in an urban environment. If you're carrying it anywhere, it's hidden in the trunk (and what good does that do for you if you're fighting in the bar?) But a pistol falls short of an SMG in almost every area except concealability (range, number of add-ons, burstfire, ammo). The SMG is pretty much the perfect middle ground. I had a character who swore by them, and had a modified SMG to work as an assault rifle, another to work as a trumped up pistol, so on and so forth.
How do your guys' characters carry their SMGs?
On a sling under a coat, or have your GMs allowed you to buy holsters (custom?) for them?
Page 249 of SR3 has a good picture of what I am talking about, but it's not exactly concealable. (Yes I know that it looks like a chopped-down AR and not and SMG.)
On a sling under a coat, or have your GMs allowed you to buy holsters (custom?) for them?
Page 249 of SR3 has a good picture of what I am talking about, but it's not exactly concealable. (Yes I know that it looks like a chopped-down AR and not and SMG.)
| QUOTE (SL James) |
| Wow. I'm so impressed. I forget sometimes that people use the canon fucked-up rules where you can have an outline of bullets surround your immobile body while suffering a single gunshot. I use the rules where if you don't dodge or take cover you die. |
..Say what?
The canon rules don't say that. They say you take no damage.
So what you wind up with is a lot of bullets lodged in your armour. A lot of grazing hits. A lot of stuff that doesn't even count as a light wound.
And quite frankly, why should someone who's got a lot of cyberware for damage resistance and security armour (+ helmet) die from a couple dozen people shooting light pistols at him? That strikes me as more silly then "He takes no damage from all 30 light pistol hits".
Pick your tool for your opponent - if you're facing tanks and drones, you're right...the twinned SMGs o' death won't really do much good.
However, for most sec guards, it's amazingly useful.
-Siege
Edit: And there were those two bank thieves in LA who shrugged off the weapons' fire of responding LAPD officers until they broke out the assault rifles.
However, for most sec guards, it's amazingly useful.
-Siege
Edit: And there were those two bank thieves in LA who shrugged off the weapons' fire of responding LAPD officers until they broke out the assault rifles.
| QUOTE (Siege @ Oct 30 2005, 03:44 PM) |
| Pick your tool for your opponent - if you're facing tanks and drones, you're right...the twinned SMGs o' death won't really do much good. However, for most sec guards, it's amazingly useful. -Siege Edit: And there were those two bank thieves in LA who shrugged off the weapons' fire of responding LAPD officers until they broke out the assault rifles. |
I remember that. If I recall correctly, the cops got trashed because the perps Did have assault rifles.
I once shot down a Stallion helicopter with a single AV shot from a SuperMach. With the right ammo, they can still do plenty well against the big stuff.
IIRC, they never did break out the ARs—they raided a local shop for hunting rifles.
~J
~J
Well, kind of depends on your definition of hunting rifle. They got AR15s (basically semi-automatic assault rifles) from the gun shop, which are now very restricted in California. Genius, eh? And the SWAT guys that put Matasareanu down always had them, it was just a matter of SWAT getting to the scene.
| QUOTE (Critias) |
| I once shot down a Stallion helicopter with a single AV shot from a SuperMach. With the right ammo, they can still do plenty well against the big stuff. |
Heh. An "anti-vehicular" submachine gun. Oh, how I love this game.
The cops that were there did many things wrong. They never should have pulled up that close to the bank. They never should have been fighting against fully armored and heavily armed targets. They did no recon, kept no safe distance, and because of that they didn't have a chance until SWAT arrived.
I did not, then, recall correctly. Such is the way of the world.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Raygun) | ||
Heh. An "anti-vehicular" submachine gun. Oh, how I love this game. |
I never said it was realistic, just possible (and fun) within the rules.
Since I opened that can of worms, the cops would likely have been equally outmatched if the robbers were carrying SMGs.
The standard police vest covers center mass - it does not protect your head, groin or femoral arteries. And a wound need not be immediately fatal to prove detrimental, so the cops would be highly unlikely to advance into close quarters or oncoming fire beyond any immediately compelling need.
The robbers, by comparison, were covered from neck to toe in heavy armor which allowed them to shrug off small caliber rounds from the responding officers' handguns.
The result produced hostiles with no discernable fear of handguns and had weapons that could carve through the responding officers' body armor like a knife through butter, although the weapon choice did not make a massive impact on the outcome.
The ARs were not a deciding factor in and of themselves because the robbers used them primarily for suppression which could have easily been accomplished by an SMG with a full-auto capacity.
The hostiles were not using their overwhelming firepower to terminate with impunity - if they were, they were horribly bad at it because there were no friendly casualties.
-Siege
The standard police vest covers center mass - it does not protect your head, groin or femoral arteries. And a wound need not be immediately fatal to prove detrimental, so the cops would be highly unlikely to advance into close quarters or oncoming fire beyond any immediately compelling need.
The robbers, by comparison, were covered from neck to toe in heavy armor which allowed them to shrug off small caliber rounds from the responding officers' handguns.
The result produced hostiles with no discernable fear of handguns and had weapons that could carve through the responding officers' body armor like a knife through butter, although the weapon choice did not make a massive impact on the outcome.
The ARs were not a deciding factor in and of themselves because the robbers used them primarily for suppression which could have easily been accomplished by an SMG with a full-auto capacity.
The hostiles were not using their overwhelming firepower to terminate with impunity - if they were, they were horribly bad at it because there were no friendly casualties.
-Siege
| QUOTE (brohopcp) |
| The cops that were there did many things wrong. They never should have pulled up that close to the bank. They never should have been fighting against fully armored and heavily armed targets. They did no recon, kept no safe distance, and because of that they didn't have a chance until SWAT arrived. |
That's easy to say in hindsight. Police aren't Delta operatives. Just guys trying to do a job. Give 'em a break.
that's true frosty, they probably just got a bank robbery call, no details, how the hell were they supposed to know thier opponents were armored like that, it was pratically unheard of before it actually happened.
Although now, select squad cars carry a LE-variant assault rifle as a direct result of that fiasco.
-Siege
-Siege
| QUOTE (Musashi Forever) |
| How do your guys' characters carry their SMGs? On a sling under a coat, or have your GMs allowed you to buy holsters (custom?) for them? Page 249 of SR3 has a good picture of what I am talking about, but it's not exactly concealable. (Yes I know that it looks like a chopped-down AR and not and SMG.) |
The little ones were under coats and the GM allowed holsters. The big ones we treated like sniper rifles. Disassembled in a suitcase. An Uzi III should be pretty easy to tuck away, and I can't imagine that it couldn't fit in a big holster.
| QUOTE (Shrapnel @ Oct 29 2005, 09:48 PM) |
| As for the Ingram Smartgun, it sounds like we're on the same page. As for the folding stock, the original drawing in the Street Samurai Catalog actually has the correct stock on it. |
Exactly. That is the problem.
The collapsing wire stock on the M10 looks so ineffective it might as well not be there. From some stuff I googled, people who have actually used it have similar thoughts.
I would like to have seen something more useful like a folding stock. I found a pic of a M10 with a stock very similar to the H&K MP5K pdw. That looks like it would work lots better.
I am thinking to myself, if you are going to the bother to update something to the 2050s, why leave a glaring piece of ass in the design?
| QUOTE (FrostyNSO) | ||
That's easy to say in hindsight. Police aren't Delta operatives. Just guys trying to do a job. Give 'em a break. |
Another result of that fiasco is that most patrol cops are trained to respond correctly to bank alarms. I.E. keep your distance, use cover, etc... Whether the cops do this each time for a bank alarm, that's up to them. At least most have been trained and/or equipped for it now.
I gotta say the ingram warrior is my favorite. It's cheap, slightly more stopping power, stripped down so you can upgrade as you like, and a decent ammo capacity. It's not very concealable off the shelf, and even less so with all the gadgets attached.
| QUOTE (Ed_209a) |
| I would like to have seen something more useful like a folding stock. I found a pic of a M10 with a stock very similar to the H&K MP5K pdw. That looks like it would work lots better. |
I've seen a lot of pictures of MAC10s and MAC11s with collapsible AR15 stocks on them. Combine that with a suppressor, and they look pretty cool!
I looked up some of them, and have to agree.
I particularly liked the ones with the extended barrel and a M4-style forend.
I particularly liked the ones with the extended barrel and a M4-style forend.
| QUOTE (Ed_209a) |
| I looked up some of them, and have to agree. I particularly liked the ones with the extended barrel and a M4-style forend. |
Could I get a link? I tried to google them, but I guess I didn't search for the right stuff.
seconded request for linkage.
Here's a link to a cool poster of the standard MAC10. It also shows how the original folding stock works. They even sell t-shirts and coffee mugs, for those so inclined! 
MAC10 Posters, T-shirts, and Coffee Mugs!
Here's a website devoted to the MAC10 and it's variants, with a few good pics. Scroll down to see a pic of a MAC10 with AR15 stock, drum magazine, and vertical fore-grip!
MAC10.net
Make sure you click on the "Videos & Pix" link on the left side for even more cool pics!
I hope this helps!
MAC10 Posters, T-shirts, and Coffee Mugs!
Here's a website devoted to the MAC10 and it's variants, with a few good pics. Scroll down to see a pic of a MAC10 with AR15 stock, drum magazine, and vertical fore-grip!
MAC10.net
Make sure you click on the "Videos & Pix" link on the left side for even more cool pics!
I hope this helps!
Found some more good links I wanted to share...
Stoneycreek Armory
And for all those GMs who say you can't put SMGs in shoulder holsters...
MAC10 Shoulder Holster
(By the way, I've also seen a concealable shoulder holster for an AOW shotgun, but haven't been able to find the link for a while now. If anybody knows what I'm talking about, and has the link for it, please let me know. Thanks!)
Stoneycreek Armory
And for all those GMs who say you can't put SMGs in shoulder holsters...
MAC10 Shoulder Holster
(By the way, I've also seen a concealable shoulder holster for an AOW shotgun, but haven't been able to find the link for a while now. If anybody knows what I'm talking about, and has the link for it, please let me know. Thanks!)
Hehe... Some of them do look good, but it all sort of reminds me of someone adding spoilers, racing wheels and a bigger exhaust pipe to an old Civic.
I'd still rather get a real HK than a modifed MAC-10... Even if these mods have won competitions, there'a a reason why professionals the world over drift to certain SMGs.
I'd still rather get a real HK than a modifed MAC-10... Even if these mods have won competitions, there'a a reason why professionals the world over drift to certain SMGs.
While I like the modded MACs, I kind of have to agree with MMU1.
This train of thought is me trying to get my head around a major firearm producer in the 2050s producing a firearm that looks _so_ much like one from 80 years earlier.
It would be different if "Manny's Firearms and Lube" was the manufacturer, but they also made several other modern designs. They know how. <Shrugs over the Mac-10/Smartgun>
This train of thought is me trying to get my head around a major firearm producer in the 2050s producing a firearm that looks _so_ much like one from 80 years earlier.
It would be different if "Manny's Firearms and Lube" was the manufacturer, but they also made several other modern designs. They know how. <Shrugs over the Mac-10/Smartgun>
| QUOTE (mmu1 @ Nov 2 2005, 03:44 AM) |
| Hehe... Some of them do look good, but it all sort of reminds me of someone adding spoilers, racing wheels and a bigger exhaust pipe to an old Civic. |
Yeah. It's really a less-than-fantastic piece of ordnance. To call it "utilitarian" would be a complement. But, it's small, cheap, and it throws a lot of bullets really fast. That's pretty much it's whole schtick. You go tacking on longer barrels and stocks and shit and you might as well go for something better made.
The old "Grease Gun" of WW2 wasn't particularly fantastic, but it had some very distinct advantages from a logistics viewpoint.
If all you can put hands on at the moment is an old Civic...
-Siege
If all you can put hands on at the moment is an old Civic...
-Siege
If I could go back and re-click, I think that I would pick "Other" and write-in the MP7 PDW. The thing is so cool and looks like it could fill the PDW role nicely. It is highly customizable and comes with adequate recoils comp and looks like it would be easy to conceal. I love how they show the different ways it can be carried on the HKPro website.
MP7 Overview
Raygun's Take on the Weapon
MP7 Overview
Raygun's Take on the Weapon
Has anyone laid hand on the MP7? The grip looks a little bulky.
| QUOTE (Ed_209a) |
| Has anyone laid hand on the MP7? The grip looks a little bulky. |
I have never touched one, or seen it in real life, I'm just a big fan of the look and the idea behind PDWs.
IMO the grip doesn't look any worse than a MAC-10 or UZI grip.
That isn't saying much. The Mac 10/11 is one of the most notoriously unergonomic firearms ever designed.
| QUOTE (Arethusa) |
| That isn't saying much. The Mac 10/11 is one of the most notoriously unergonomic firearms ever designed. |
Of course, the MAC does not have a built-in foregrip or collapsible stock.
I wonder how they compare recoil-wise.
As an aside, the rules in Cannon Companion totally nerf one's ability to build an Uber SMG. Highest possible power of 7M? Oh bee khay bee, I think I'll just buy a cheap ass gun from the book. (Yes, this is the first time I've ever built using the rules in CC. I was always a GM before this game, never needed them .)
The best I could come up with was being able to fire nine rounds with no recoil penalties. Granted, I'm not the best numbers cruncher, but still.
.)The best I could come up with was being able to fire nine rounds with no recoil penalties. Granted, I'm not the best numbers cruncher, but still.
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