Full Version: Monofiliment Whip Weapon Foci?
| QUOTE (TheHappyAnarchist @ Dec 5 2005, 11:58 AM) |
| I'm wondering what is stopping you from using Orichalcum in a monomolecular string? Couldn't you just string the orichalcum out and reinforce it's bond with magic until it was monomolecular width? Thus making the actual whip orichalcum as well? Or am I missing something. |
Even if you could do this with magic...
- Somebody would have to learn new spells specifically to attenuate and strengthen the molecules.
- Not sure you could cast a spell like this, since you have to be able to see the target without technological vision enhancements (isn't a molecule-thick strand too thin to see unaided? or even with the help of optical lenses?).
- That molecular strength spell would have to be maintained, which means the focus would have to become a stacked weapons focus and sustaining focus. Then you wouldn't be able to turn the focus off without the magical monoline turning to dust. It would also raise the crafting and bonding costs for the weapon.
Ultimately, if you're the GM you should do whatever you want in your game. In my game, I'd say that it would be theoretically possible, but practically speaking too difficult and expensive to make or to bond, and it smells too much like a munchkinizer.
Monowhips arent actualy monomolecular, just realy thin. They call them that for marketing hype!
| QUOTE |
| That's horse shit. While you can't add any radicals to the mono-line,You can't put any alchemical radicals or pieces of Orichalchum into the monowire... |
Which, if you recall, the reason foci go to the astral with you is that it has a aura. If you can't add anything to reduce a already almost impossible number to enchant to the monowire you can't have a whole aura, the wieght at the tip will have a aura that's not part of anything (and operating outside of the body's aura)
| QUOTE |
| Please. You've got nothing. You are grasping at straws from previous editions where it was also legal to make monowhip weapon foci to try to prove that the current rules where you can make monowhip weapon foci are somehow against design intent. They aren't. Monowhip weapon foci are totally sweet, and I'm pretty sure that the designers approve. |
Everything in SR lore and design has ALWAYS indicated that the more highly processed the item, the more magic doesn't work with it.
Saying it's something meant to be there or even approved of is just trying to validate your own dripping saliva of the thought of using something like this.
| QUOTE |
| Immunity to normal weapons has no effect against Combat Spells or Weapon Foci. |
Yup, but you can't make a monowhip into a weapon focus and it be a monowhip, you're arguing something a bit different then I am. I've stated time and time again you lose any and all damage improvment of the monowhip, you have at the most a standard whip. But you ignore this and go based off of something different then the intent of the SR universe, Nigel findley would be rolling in his grave.
| QUOTE |
| Are you talking about creating the weapon or enchanting it? I did not realize there were enchanting rules in SR4. You do not have to create the weapon, you can go buy a mundane one and enchant it. |
In sr2 and sr3 you went off the object resistance test to enchant, in sr4 a highly processed/technological item requires a threshold of 4 or greater to be affected by magic.
| QUOTE |
| Please see SR3 page 191 about weapon foci damage that has been pointed out and quoted several times as well as pointing out that your 2nd edition quote concerns resorting to Force of Will attacks which are quite different. |
Please read my qoute before talking further, it's not about force of will attacks, it's in relation to the damage bonus that some tech stuff provided.
It's saying if you have a weapon foci knife with a dikoted edge, you lose the bonus from the dikote against a spirit/astral form but the damage remains that of a knife, which doesn't contradict anything in the sr3 qoute.
| QUOTE |
| a weapon focus inflicts it's base damage in both phsyical and astral combat |
a dikote knife in sr3 apparently doesn't ever have the ability to be technologically improved with a dikote edge or a monofilament edge or laser edge against even mundane targets, wow reading comprehension.
| QUOTE |
| I'm wondering what is stopping you from using Orichalcum in a monomolecular string? |
trying to fit a compound into a molecule.
| QUOTE (tisoz) |
| Points to MitS, page 43 under Material Basis, especially Mundane Telesma. It is also generally accepted that rules in a later published book supercede previous rules, especially books that go into greater detail on a subject. |
You got my hopes up that there was something there. If you're refereing to an example of enchanting a sword off the self and saying that indicates weapons foci no longer need orichalcum, I'd say you're really reaching. You could enchant sword to be any other type of foci, there is no rule saying a sword has to be a weapon foci. You all must really want this very bad, to be that desperate. I'll agree that SR has alway had made it hard to influence high-tech gear with magic. In SR3, you definitely couldn't have one, however, there is nothing in the core SR4 book that would indicate you can't. But I'd still make my players wait for the expansion if they asked.
This is assuming you're just using a single long line of carbon molecules. If it was this, it would have to be all single-bonds with hydrogen atoms bonded to the otherwise free electrons. This would make it a long, thin hydrocarbon atom, combustible and unstable. What's more realistic is to make it a long, 4-molecule thick tube made of buckminsterfullerine bond formations. This kind of technology actually exists, and could probably be formed around a long molecule-thick thread of orihalcum by the year 2070.
So, yeah.
So, yeah.
| QUOTE (Kleaner) |
| It's a lame idea which screams of munchkin powergaming. I'm glad none of my players have come up with this idea. I hate bitch slapping friends. As for any kind of "reasoning" you want to put behind it, whatever, it's just mental masturbation. The level of technology need to maniuplate molecules on this level, and to create such an incredibly strong bond of wire falls under Clarke's third law: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. So stop trying to reason building one, 'cause you have no idea how it'd be made. (I'm pretty sure it's not just a string attached to a weight). Even if they do publish rules for them, I'm not going to allow them, it'd be freaking cheesy. |
I'm not sure why it would be any cheesier than say, a polearm built with an extendable haft.
In fact that would be much worse. Not quite as concealable, but it is concealable anywhere that someone can take a pistol. Could arguably do much more damage as well as Strength becomes a factor.
I don't see what is so implausible about it.
As for the magical reinforcing, it's a thing called permanent spells. They do exist.
As for compound, it is still a compound made up of molecules. On the molecular level, it wouldn't be much different. Instead of
OOOOOOOOO - with O being Orichalcum it would be
GSM etc etc for the composite bits. Not sure what the issue would be.
Not really twinky either, there is much worse. This is nowhere near the vein of Synaptic Accelerator + Boosted Reflexes, or million nuyen cyber death machines, or any other number of twinkiness that you can get.
So, since orichalcum is a magical material, and since magic often means physics are wonky, WHY can't the actual whip bit be made of monomolecular orichalcum?
because you can't manufacture orichalum = )
You could make a whip focus, or a whip made out of orichalum (as ridiculous as it sounds) but you can't make a monofilament whip focus is the only thing that's bieng argued = )
You could make a whip focus, or a whip made out of orichalum (as ridiculous as it sounds) but you can't make a monofilament whip focus is the only thing that's bieng argued = )
I don't see what the big F-ing deal is. How is the monowhip focus any worse than the Troll with a "polearm" focus (or elf, on the astral)?
Because one is allowed in the rules, and also a monofilament can be hidden anywhere, second then someone with absolute crap stats, with one bound would be a killer in both realms.
Munchkinism.
Munchkinism.
So anyone who uses a weapon with a big damage code is automatically a munchkin?
It happens to be a really good weapon and has the availability to match. If they can get ahold of one and devote the prohibitively high resources to do it, why the hell not?
What does it matter if they can be a tobacco-chewing asskicker in both realms? They paid to have access to that other realm.
If the PC being able to inflict 10S is such a HUGE problem, then you better outlaw Machineguns an AV ammo too before the Troll sammie gets one.
It happens to be a really good weapon and has the availability to match. If they can get ahold of one and devote the prohibitively high resources to do it, why the hell not?
What does it matter if they can be a tobacco-chewing asskicker in both realms? They paid to have access to that other realm.
If the PC being able to inflict 10S is such a HUGE problem, then you better outlaw Machineguns an AV ammo too before the Troll sammie gets one.
| QUOTE (6thDragon @ Dec 5 2005, 02:07 PM) |
| If you're refereing to an example of enchanting a sword off the s[h]elf and saying that indicates weapons foci no longer need orichalcum, I'd say you're really reaching. You could enchant sword to be any other type of foci, there is no rule saying a sword has to be a weapon foci. You all must really want this very bad, to be that desperate. I'll agree that SR has alway had made it hard to influence high-tech gear with magic. In SR3, you definitely couldn't have one, however, there is nothing in the core SR4 book that would indicate you can't. But I'd still make my players wait for the expansion if they asked. |
Those are the rules for enchanting any type of foci, including weapon foci.
| QUOTE (Liper) |
| Please read my qoute before talking further, it's not about force of will attacks, it's in relation to the damage bonus that some tech stuff provided. It's saying if you have a weapon foci knife with a dikoted edge, you lose the bonus from the dikote against a spirit/astral form but the damage remains that of a knife, which doesn't contradict anything in the sr3 qoute. |
Ok, I looked up your quote because I assumed you were talking about the rules regarding force of will attacks.
| QUOTE (Awakenings p. 101-102) |
| When a mundane person attacks a manifest spirit in hand-to-hand combat, he is engaging in a kind of struggle of wills with the spirit. Because skill is of less use against a spirit than unshakable courage, the character fights using Willpower rather than a relevant Combat Skill. Combat Pool dice cannot be added to Willpower Tests for attacking spirits, but they may be used to dodge the attacks of manifest spirits. Because the physical combat mostly serves as a representation of the struggle that actually takes place between the character and the spirit, the physical properties of the character's weapon are less important than its symbolic properties. Symbolically, a sword is a sword, and against a spirit an ancient broadsword is just as effective as a modern carbon-steel monoblade. In game terms, technological enhancements to melee weapons such as monofilament edges, laser attachments, Dikote, and so on do not allow a character to inflict additional damage when fighting a manifest spirit. Use only the base Damage Code of the weapon to calculate damage. |
First, that pertains to a force of will attack, just as everyone has been pointing out. Second, according to this quote, if a mundane used a monowhip to combat the spirit, the monowhip would do its base damage. Third, this is from SR2 and was updated in SR3 to
| QUOTE (SR3 @ p. 188) |
| The character uses Willpower to make a melee attack against the spirit (Combat Pool dice may not be used). The character can wield a weapon, although mundane weapons do not effect the base damage (the weapon is only a symbol of the fighter's will, it has no actual effect on the spirit in this type of combat). |
Fourth, this in no way prohibits the use of technological enhancements incorporated in weapon foci or negate technological bonuses when using weapon foci or when using them in conjunction with mundane weapons when not involved in a Willpower attack. (The Willpower attack has special rules. The spirit does not get to use Combat Pool and the attack bypasses armor power, likewise the character gets no Combat Pool or weapon bonuses.)
Fifth, none of this pertains to weapon foci.
| QUOTE |
| So anyone who uses a weapon with a big damage code is automatically a munchkin? |
No anyone who does what's bieng attempted here is.
With this set up, a anemic couch potatoe that spent no points in any physical or mental attributes could spend 15pts to be a magician and another 3 pts on resources to get 15k to get a lv 1 weapon foci in this (and 3k for it bieng monofilament whip)
1pt to bind it.
Grats, you're now a astral projecting/physical combat deadly guy for only 18pts.
The problem with the whip, is it does a great amount of damage and is independent of the users own stats.
a "asskicker" in both realms using the rules, would require alot more then a mere 18pts + whatever else you spent on the character.
With no skill and glitch, he will not last long.
yeah, but you're missing the whole point of the excercise.
and with the given example, he still has 380something points to spend on the character.
and with the given example, he still has 380something points to spend on the character.
Liper, the character still has to purchase an exotic weapon skill, and put some into agility if they want to take advantage of it....And even if they do as you say, they will still have crappy attributes come back and haunt them I am sure.
I don't see what the problem is with a person doing that really, there are definate flaws with using a monowhip, and benefits to match.
I don't see what the problem is with a person doing that really, there are definate flaws with using a monowhip, and benefits to match.
The only problem is everything in the SR universe would say you can't make a character with a monowhip weapon foci and it be as effective as a regular monowhip, and to boot, go into the astral as a monowhips damage.
I just picture this character with no points in attributes like you mentioned, getting his whip ripped from his hand and being shit out of luck. He'd have no strength or unarmed abilitys to help him then. He'd be toast....
From reading some of these posts I figure I should not even think about asking about the damage and armor piercing properties of Bucky-Ball Shot. 
squinky, you like the other poster missed the excercise, for less then 5% of your build points you could make a asset that was a monster in melee and astral combat.
The said character would of course use the remainder of his build points.
The said character would of course use the remainder of his build points.
| QUOTE (Demon_Bob) |
| From reading some of these posts I figure I should not even think about asking about the damage and armor piercing properties of Bucky-Ball Shot. |
It depends on whether you have them Dikoted, and if they aren't Dikoted whether they are filled with Green Ring-14 or Kryptonite.
making rounds like that at least aren't against the rules =p
| QUOTE (Liper) |
| yeah, but you're missing the whole point of the excercise. and with the given example, he still has 380something points to spend on the character. |
Not really, you do not have a point other than you miss/ignore other game balance mechanics.
| QUOTE |
| The problem with the whip, is it does a great amount of damage and is independent of the users own stats. |
This seems to be a major part of the problem. Other weapons do damage independant of the users attributes and are easier on his skill points than a monowhip which requires that specific skill and is useless for anything else.
but do they do the same damage on the astral? god some of you posters either lack reading comprehension, are oblivious to facts, or just want to validate munchkinism despite rules.
For the love of all thats holy! Monowhips ARE NOT monomolecular. Its like cheese wire. Its Cheese wire made out of some tough material so it wont break with a weight attatched. The weapon has been described in several shadowrun book sas being not realy a single molocule chain.
Also, I do believe in the enchanting rules it states you can enchant ANYTHING, you can buy a cyberdeck off the shelf, go get yourself some radicals, and enchant that sumbitch into a weapon focus. Will it be effective? No! Will it work? Yes! Do you need any magical metals? No! They just help.
/rant off
Also, I do believe in the enchanting rules it states you can enchant ANYTHING, you can buy a cyberdeck off the shelf, go get yourself some radicals, and enchant that sumbitch into a weapon focus. Will it be effective? No! Will it work? Yes! Do you need any magical metals? No! They just help.
/rant off
| QUOTE (Liper) |
| but do they do the same damage on the astral? god some of you posters either lack reading comprehension, are oblivious to facts, or just want to validate munchkinism despite rules. |
Buh, I think you are the one with the "issues". Your point I adressed was the one where you said a character could be a badass with only so many points as you described. Whats so hard to understand about that?
You can do the same damn thing with a full body cyber-limb conversion, screw the natural stats and be a badass....Do you have a problem with that?
You can make an adept with critical strike that can do more damage than a monowhip, just lacking the reach.
You can make a spellcaster and get some crazy stat augmenting spells and make yourself a goddamned monster, is that okay with you?
And your question about damage on the astral seems to have been answered already. So maybe you need to brush up on your reading comprehension, or maybe, just maybe, you have a different opinion or interpretation of things and it would be unfair to say that about you. Just like all these other people you just insulted with your goofy reply.
Halabis, the rules specifically state in 2nd edition (and aren't overwritten anywhere and even supported later in sr3) that technological improvments SUCH AS MONOFILAMENT EDGES don't apply to weapon foci.
so yeah, frag everyone that doesn't agree with the rules and is acting like it's cannon to weapon foci a monofilament and that it retains it's monofilament damage.
so yeah, frag everyone that doesn't agree with the rules and is acting like it's cannon to weapon foci a monofilament and that it retains it's monofilament damage.
| QUOTE (Liper) |
| but do they do the same damage on the astral? |
Who gives a damn if it does the same damage or not? It seems you just have an issue with your players being good at (omg hold the mayo) more than just one thing.
So they're good at melee in the physical and astral...They still live in the world of the gun. There are hundreds of guys out there with weapons that do damage independent of their physical stats who (uhoh here it comes) can inflict that damage from accross the room or even a couple hundred yards out.
Frankly, being able to whoop ass on the astral plane has never been a decisive factor in the grand scheme of thing in my games. But hey, different strokes for different folks.
| QUOTE (Liper) |
| Halabis, the rules specifically state in 2nd edition (and aren't overwritten anywhere and even supported later in sr3) that technological improvments SUCH AS MONOFILAMENT EDGES don't apply to weapon foci. |
Steel is a technological advancement, bronze is a technological advancement...by those rules you wouldn't be able to make a weapon foci out of anything more than a heavy rock.
| QUOTE (Liper) |
| The only problem is everything in the SR universe would say you can't make a character with a monowhip weapon foci and it be as effective as a regular monowhip, and to boot, go into the astral as a monowhips damage. |
No. I'm starting to think that you don't even read these books.
Let's go all the way back to the Grimoire. The one that describes how enchanting actually works in Shadowrun's original canon:
| QUOTE (The Grimoire @ p. 25) |
| Orichalcum can also be used in the ritual. Every unit of the mystic metal used reduces the target number for making the focus and a potential reduction in its Karma cost [sic]. Whether the materials are built into the focus or simply consumed during the ritual, they are bound to that focus and cannot be retrieved for any other purpose. Consider them expended. |
You got that? Even in 2nd edition, you could make a monowhip weapon focus. You've always been able to do that. It's not even a deal.
| QUOTE (Liper) |
| Halabis, the rules specifically state in 2nd edition (and aren't overwritten anywhere and even supported later in sr3) that technological improvments SUCH AS MONOFILAMENT EDGES don't apply to weapon foci. |
The rules also state that the power you are referencing HAS NO EFFECT ON WEAPON FOCI! Give it a rest. There has never been an edition of Shadowrun in which it wasn't legal to make a monowhip weapon focus and then totally cut spirits in half.
You keep quoting increasingly small portions of a rule from 2 editions ago at an increasing volume. Really, we know what the rule actually said, you don't have to shout.
The rule actually said that if you hit a Spirit with a monowhip that wasn't a weapon focus, that you got jacked. However, the rules did not say that you got jacked if you struck a spirit with a monowhip that was a weapon focus. And the rules explicitly allowed you to expend Orichalcum without actually putting it on any part of your mundane telesma.
So not only do you have absolutely nothing to stand on when hitting non-spirit astral forms with a monowhip, you have nothing to stand on for hitting spirits with weapon focus monowhips. And you have nothing to stand on saying that there can't be magic monowhips.
There have been 3 complete renditions of the enchanting rules in 3 editions, and not one of them forbid you from making a magic monowhip. Not one! I honestly have no idea where you got the idea that monowhip foci were even questionable - because they are not. With any luck, the 4th edition rules will actually have a monowhip weapon focus as an example, not to clear up doubts - but just so that you will shut up.
-Frank
| QUOTE |
| You got that? Even in 2nd edition, you could make a monowhip weapon focus. You've always been able to do that. It's not even a deal. |
Again you're reading comprehension is incomprehensable.
you can make a monowhip focus, but it no longer does the damage a monowhip normally does against spirits/astral forms.
| QUOTE |
| There has never been an edition of Shadowrun in which it wasn't legal to make a monowhip weapon focus and then totally cut spirits in half. |
The monowhip enhancment NEVER has applied to spirit combat from 2nd to 3rd edition read the rules,
| QUOTE |
| sr3: the weapons base damage |
| QUOTE |
| sr2: Technological enchancments do not apply to damage... |
| QUOTE |
| However, the rules did not say that you got jacked if you struck a spirit with a monowhip that was a weapon focus. |
So what's this part on page 102 that says "Enchancments to melee weapons such as MONOFILAMENT EDGES, laser attachments, dikote and so on, do not allow the character to inflict additional damage when fighting...
| QUOTE |
God I swear you're just ignoring what's said to suit your own agenda. Example "blade the street ronin is fighting an elemental using his dikote covered katana, he usually inflicts 12s damage with the katana but the blade gains no benefits from the dikote agains the elemental therefor the sword inflicts 11m damage." God, you going to argue with this still? |
So not only do you have absolutely nothing to stand on when hitting non-spirit astral forms with a monowhip, you have nothing to stand on for hitting spirits with weapon focus monowhips.
| QUOTE |
Read above. |
And you have nothing to stand on saying that there can't be magic monowhips.
| QUOTE |
I've said you can have them, but at most they act as a regular whip, not the damage you'd like to abscribe them. the rules support me so far on this not you. |
There have been 3 complete renditions of the enchanting rules in 3 editions, and not one of them forbid you from making a magic monowhip.[QUOTE]
2nd specifically prohibited gaining any advantage by making it monofilament by making such things immune to weapon foci, 3rd said anything using monofilament/dikote/anything to enchance damage does the BASE weapon damage as a weapon foci.
2nd specifically prohibited gaining any advantage by making it monofilament by making such things immune to weapon foci, 3rd said anything using monofilament/dikote/anything to enchance damage does the BASE weapon damage as a weapon foci.
Liper, get off your soapbox and actually listen to what the other people are saying.
| QUOTE (nick012000) |
| Liper, get off your soapbox and actually listen to what the other people are saying. |
Did you forget where you are?
Just a tiny little note from little old me.
Liper refers to rules about weapon ENHANCEMENTS such as DIKOTE on a regular weapon, what he seems to forget is that the monowhip isn’t an enhancement, it’s a regular weapon, a very sophisticated weapon but still a regular weapon.
Now, if someone went and actually managed to DIKOTE the monowhip (I know, very bizarre and would demand something more than just science to work) then I would agree that the ENHANCEMENT of the whip wouldn’t work, the monowhip ITSELF would work without a problem.
Liper refers to rules about weapon ENHANCEMENTS such as DIKOTE on a regular weapon, what he seems to forget is that the monowhip isn’t an enhancement, it’s a regular weapon, a very sophisticated weapon but still a regular weapon.
Now, if someone went and actually managed to DIKOTE the monowhip (I know, very bizarre and would demand something more than just science to work) then I would agree that the ENHANCEMENT of the whip wouldn’t work, the monowhip ITSELF would work without a problem.
Even Dikote did change the base code of the weapon... so it would increase the astral damage, too.
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) |
| Even Dikote did change the base code of the weapon... so it would increase the astral damage, too. |
Well, I DO agree but it IS an enhancement on the original weapon damage, still, one little box of damage is a moot point in my games anyway, I find light pistols so much more fun nowadays - hand cannons and dikoted ally spirit bullets of DOOM is a thing of the past(SR3)
| QUOTE (Liper) |
| The monowhip enhancment NEVER has applied to spirit combat from 2nd to 3rd edition read the rules, |
Yes it has. The only time it was ignored is when it was replaced by Charisma for a contest of wills. If you wanted to use the monowhips damage code you could, but then you had to deal with the spirits power of immunity to normal weapons, making the monowhip ineffective against Force 5 or higher spirits.
| QUOTE | ||||||
So what's this part on page 102 that says "Enchancments to melee weapons such as MONOFILAMENT EDGES, laser attachments, dikote and so on, do not allow the character to inflict additional damage when fighting... |
The passage you keep referring to on Awakenings page 102 only deals with the contest of wills. It is updated in SR3 on page 188. If you choose not to make a contest of wills attack, the rules are on page 189. The relevant passage is:
| QUOTE |
| Against damage-causing powers or damage-causing weapons the standard damage and combat rules apply. |
I would be happy if one of my players took a monowhip weapon focus and decided to go spirit hunting.
You know, those spirit things with that power, what was it called again? Oh yeah, Accident. That was the one.
As far as it goes, please stop quoting rules from the contest of wills section. If you want those to apply then you roll only your willpower, your combat skill does not matter when you use a weapon focus against a spirit and you can go to town that way.
I get to trade a stat I want to have high anyways for a skill that I won't use often. All right, sounds like a deal to me. /munchkin
Really, if you want to change the way weapon focuses work against spirits, go ahead, but realize then that having a weapon focus does nothing against spirits that you could not do before.
You know, those spirit things with that power, what was it called again? Oh yeah, Accident. That was the one.
As far as it goes, please stop quoting rules from the contest of wills section. If you want those to apply then you roll only your willpower, your combat skill does not matter when you use a weapon focus against a spirit and you can go to town that way.
I get to trade a stat I want to have high anyways for a skill that I won't use often. All right, sounds like a deal to me. /munchkin
Really, if you want to change the way weapon focuses work against spirits, go ahead, but realize then that having a weapon focus does nothing against spirits that you could not do before.
Correct me if I'm wrong...
But doesn't the "Technological enhancements don't apply" apply to those enhancements made AFTER enchantment?
As in.. if you took a dikoted sword, and THEN enchanted it, then it does.. but if you took a weapon focus and dikoted it, then it doesn't?
Reason being, with the first, the dikote is inherent to the form of the enchanted weapon.. it's part of the enchantment. The second, it's done later, so isn't part of the enchantment?
I could be misremembering, I'm a little out of it..
But doesn't the "Technological enhancements don't apply" apply to those enhancements made AFTER enchantment?
As in.. if you took a dikoted sword, and THEN enchanted it, then it does.. but if you took a weapon focus and dikoted it, then it doesn't?
Reason being, with the first, the dikote is inherent to the form of the enchanted weapon.. it's part of the enchantment. The second, it's done later, so isn't part of the enchantment?
I could be misremembering, I'm a little out of it..
| QUOTE (Dawnshadow) |
| Correct me if I'm wrong... |
No problem.
| QUOTE |
| But doesn't the "Technological enhancements don't apply" apply to those enhancements made AFTER enchantment? |
Actually no. It doesn't apply to magic items at all. The statement that technological enhancements do not apply refers to the rules where if you hit a materialized spirit with a non-magical weapon you have the option of bypassing its Immunity to Normal Weapons by engaging in a contest of wills - in which case you do damage only based on your Charisma. It's a kind of clumsy way of saying it, but essentially it just means that you replace all of the damage with your Charisma. The actual set-up is that you replace the base damage code with your Charisma, and then you ignore any bonus damage you might have from Dikote (or whatever).
Clumsily worded, and no longer present in SR4 (we may see attacks of will back in Street Magic, if so hopefully they will have a cleaner wording). Heck, even in SR3 they cleaned it up by just saying that you replaced the whole damage code with a Charisma-based one. If it makes a return in SR4 it will probably still say that.
But again and still, you didn't have to worry about that if you had a magic weapon.
| QUOTE |
| As in.. if you took a dikoted sword, and THEN enchanted it, then it does.. but if you took a weapon focus and dikoted it, then it doesn't? |
Dikoting a sword after enchanting it has a good chance of destroying the enchantment altogether, but that would be a gamemaster call. If the enchantment survived, the dikoted sword would still function as a weapon focus.
-Frank
Meant that "dikoting a weapon focus" you have a weapon focus that has the dikote modifiers physically, but when you project and take it with you, it just has the original values.. the astral form doesn't include dikote, the physical does.
A dikoted sword that becomes enchanted works the same in physical, but when projecting, has the dikote modifiers -- they're part of the astral form.
A dikoted sword that becomes enchanted works the same in physical, but when projecting, has the dikote modifiers -- they're part of the astral form.
With a weapon foci, it's not a contest of wills guys.
Without a weapon foci it's a contest of wills.
Without a weapon foci it's a contest of wills.
that's what they've been saying for the past 50 posts.
they've also been pointing out that your quote relating to damage enhancing technology applies to using willpower to attack, and therefore has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with weapon foci, monowhip or not (unless of course, you haven't bound the focus to you, in which case it would indeed apply).
they've also been pointing out that your quote relating to damage enhancing technology applies to using willpower to attack, and therefore has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with weapon foci, monowhip or not (unless of course, you haven't bound the focus to you, in which case it would indeed apply).
| QUOTE (Liper) |
| With a weapon foci, it's not a contest of wills guys. Without a weapon foci it's a contest of wills. |
Without a weapon foci, the contest of wills is only one option. The character can attack normally and normal damage applies, including technological enhancements. However, then the spirit's immunity to normal weapons also applies.
Oh yeah, magical mono whips are fun as a GM. You get the pleasure of a players getting more dice, and a greater oppurtunity to slice his own arms off with a glitch
Liper, do you fully understand what munchkinizm is?
A starting troll, with 10 body, +5 body from cyber, mystic adept quality, and only buying armour for a spell, but buying 6 countespelling, 6 will power, and 6 points of mystic armour for adept powers, and buying an armour jacket..... Thats munchkinism.
He gets 12 dice for shrugging off spells, 29 body dice for damage, and thats before his armour spell. Give that troll a heavy machine gun and rock and roll.
Doing 8 boxes of damage to a spirit with a magical mono whip is hardly cheese.
Besides that, rules allow magical monowhips. Your 2nd and 3rd edition arguments don't apply, as they are second and third edition rules. Besides that, you could take any existing melee weapon in 3rd edition and enchant it for a crap ton of karma, why would this one be any different, conscidering 4th doesn't even have the paragraph about high tech stuff not being able to be used. Mono whips cost a crap load of karma to bond (5x the force, yikes!), plus cost a whole lot of money: 10K per force. You with it, plus glitch, you are wearing it, you critical gflitch, you com away with some blood loss.
Hell, if you had your 18 point mage, gave him a 6 skill with this monowhip and 6 agility, he could pull off 13 hits, and do 21 boxes of damage. The above munchkin troll above could shrug that off with half his 25 remaining dice, and thats iff his armour spell is not up.
Liper, do you fully understand what munchkinizm is?
A starting troll, with 10 body, +5 body from cyber, mystic adept quality, and only buying armour for a spell, but buying 6 countespelling, 6 will power, and 6 points of mystic armour for adept powers, and buying an armour jacket..... Thats munchkinism.
He gets 12 dice for shrugging off spells, 29 body dice for damage, and thats before his armour spell. Give that troll a heavy machine gun and rock and roll.
Doing 8 boxes of damage to a spirit with a magical mono whip is hardly cheese.
Besides that, rules allow magical monowhips. Your 2nd and 3rd edition arguments don't apply, as they are second and third edition rules. Besides that, you could take any existing melee weapon in 3rd edition and enchant it for a crap ton of karma, why would this one be any different, conscidering 4th doesn't even have the paragraph about high tech stuff not being able to be used. Mono whips cost a crap load of karma to bond (5x the force, yikes!), plus cost a whole lot of money: 10K per force. You with it, plus glitch, you are wearing it, you critical gflitch, you com away with some blood loss.
Hell, if you had your 18 point mage, gave him a 6 skill with this monowhip and 6 agility, he could pull off 13 hits, and do 21 boxes of damage. The above munchkin troll above could shrug that off with half his 25 remaining dice, and thats iff his armour spell is not up.
on a semi related note, I found a fun factoid on the discovery channel.
Cave man tools where made of stone. Archeologists found stone axes that mono molecular edges to them. How primitave man made them is a mystery.
Now if cave men could make a mono edge with a rock, I am sure a mage can find a way to make a mono whip from orchalcium with SR4 level tech.
I am not quite sure how that applied to this thread, but it was too cool to not include.
Cave man tools where made of stone. Archeologists found stone axes that mono molecular edges to them. How primitave man made them is a mystery.
Now if cave men could make a mono edge with a rock, I am sure a mage can find a way to make a mono whip from orchalcium with SR4 level tech.
I am not quite sure how that applied to this thread, but it was too cool to not include.
I had a character with an orichalcum monowhip once. The GM wasn't keen, and it was damn expensive, but he had specified that this was going to be a high power game, he was encouraging munchkinism, and he'd given us a tonne of points to build characters with, so I didn't feel too bad. Sadly the game fizzled out after the first session because the GM got a new job in a different town. I never did get to play with my toy. 
On the stone axe front- I seriously doubt that that is much of a mystery. Many such tools are made by fracturing flint, which inherently produces a very sharp edge (you could call it monomolecular I suppose but that'd be a bit of a misnomer).
On the stone axe front- I seriously doubt that that is much of a mystery. Many such tools are made by fracturing flint, which inherently produces a very sharp edge (you could call it monomolecular I suppose but that'd be a bit of a misnomer).
Flint, and also obsidian. Obsidian has a strong tendancy to flake down to a monomolecular edge. It's not an amazing property of cavemen, it's just a vaguely interesting property of the rock.
Gah, nevermind me.
I know that I'm repeating myself from the previous thread, and I'm porting rules from SR3, but in SR3 you couldn't enchant anything with dikoting b/c the process of dikoting ruined any magical abilities of the weapon, I'd say that the same holds true with monowire (including the monosword.) It's just too technologically processed to hold any kind of mana charge. Besides, you can't add orichalcum to it since that would make it thicker than a single molocule, and orichalcum can't be drawn out that thin (yeah I'm defining the properties of orichalcum.)
Besides, make a troll mage, with a incr. str focus and a poll arm and you're doing as much damage.
as far as obsidian and flint go, you get a very sharp edge; sharp enough to do primitive brain surgery with, but it's thicker than a single molecule.
Besides, make a troll mage, with a incr. str focus and a poll arm and you're doing as much damage.
as far as obsidian and flint go, you get a very sharp edge; sharp enough to do primitive brain surgery with, but it's thicker than a single molecule.
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