There's always the threat of fumbles. On a minor one, maybe the mind probe goes two-way. On a serious botch, the mage gets probed, no willpower roll to resist. Or maybe the mage takes on some of the personality of the victim, and gets a compulsion to rat out the team, or maybe gets an approrpiate mental Flaw.
Also, don't forget that it's net successes, and successes are capped by Force. Even if they throw it at force 5, odds are that the victim will score at least 1 success, preventing their subconsious from being probed. If the vctim has a sufficiently high willpower, and the mage rolls badly, he might be restricted to surface thoughts only... and a trained person can control their surface thoughts. (This also means that mindprobing a sleeping subject might be plain useless.)
Anyway, if you want to slow it down a bit, make it an extended test with a span of 30 minutes. Even if they get it right off the bat, that'll prevent any quick grab-and-go issues.
Full Version: Mind probe
As an aside, I wonder if a sec guard getting Mind Probed could have the trauma of it show up on a Biomonitor. By RAW I think a Biomonitor monitors damage but if it has some sort of EKG thing going on it could pick up nightmares and other neural responses.
Though, if you really want to fuck with the guy, here's how to do it
The big badguy Johnson or whoeer they just captured? He's got a little brainware. Well, not a little, but a LOT. It consists of a bunch of headware memory behind a data lock, some skillwires, and a nifty little program he hacked up.
See, the Plan, and the related facts regarding it, are stored in a knowledgesoft in this dude's head. He's has his own memories of the plan wiped from his mind. The skillsoft is constantly monitoring the Johnson. Whenever a situation comes up where knowledge of the plan is needed, the Skillsoft loads up the appropriate memories. Any other time, the skillsoft unloads and wipes the knowledge of the plan from the mind again. Even when it loads the plan, it only loads the parts of the plan required for what's going on, and not the whole plan. So the best the mindprober could do is get a small part of the whole picture, and that only if he probes teh Johnson at exactly the right moment. Congratulations, you've stopped the mage. Now you just have to worry about the decker.
This setup would only really work the once, though. It's too esoteric to justify more than one character ever having this setup.
Other possibilities: Johnson doesn't know the plan, the spirit that possesses the Johnson knows the plan, and it just dismounted.
Johnson has split personalities, possibly induced by separating the connections between his left and his right brain (pseudo-scientific bullshit, but good story). How does the mage know which mind he's probing? Can he probe both at once? Or one at a time? What happens if he's probing one and the other becomes dominant?
Johnson is rigging a meat puppet from another location. You just captured his puppet.
Similarly, Johnson may be one of those new AIs. You can't mindprobe a digital entity.
Final thought: could post-hypnotic suggestion be used as a thwart to mind-probing? If so how would we represent this mechanically?
The big badguy Johnson or whoeer they just captured? He's got a little brainware. Well, not a little, but a LOT. It consists of a bunch of headware memory behind a data lock, some skillwires, and a nifty little program he hacked up.
See, the Plan, and the related facts regarding it, are stored in a knowledgesoft in this dude's head. He's has his own memories of the plan wiped from his mind. The skillsoft is constantly monitoring the Johnson. Whenever a situation comes up where knowledge of the plan is needed, the Skillsoft loads up the appropriate memories. Any other time, the skillsoft unloads and wipes the knowledge of the plan from the mind again. Even when it loads the plan, it only loads the parts of the plan required for what's going on, and not the whole plan. So the best the mindprober could do is get a small part of the whole picture, and that only if he probes teh Johnson at exactly the right moment. Congratulations, you've stopped the mage. Now you just have to worry about the decker.
This setup would only really work the once, though. It's too esoteric to justify more than one character ever having this setup.
Other possibilities: Johnson doesn't know the plan, the spirit that possesses the Johnson knows the plan, and it just dismounted.
Johnson has split personalities, possibly induced by separating the connections between his left and his right brain (pseudo-scientific bullshit, but good story). How does the mage know which mind he's probing? Can he probe both at once? Or one at a time? What happens if he's probing one and the other becomes dominant?
Johnson is rigging a meat puppet from another location. You just captured his puppet.
Similarly, Johnson may be one of those new AIs. You can't mindprobe a digital entity.
Final thought: could post-hypnotic suggestion be used as a thwart to mind-probing? If so how would we represent this mechanically?
| QUOTE (Wasabi) |
| As an aside, I wonder if a sec guard getting Mind Probed could have the trauma of it show up on a Biomonitor. By RAW I think a Biomonitor monitors damage but if it has some sort of EKG thing going on it could pick up nightmares and other neural responses. |
In SR3, I had one guy's biomonitor linked to a cortex bomb. They tried probing him, and got a bomb in their face. Suffice to say, they were a lot more careful after that....
...now I really like that one. 
You know PlatonicPimp, a think a simple know-soft would do the job and the cost isn't really that unreasonable. 
It's definately custom ware, and I'd still put that knowsoft behind a datalock for safety. What good is protecting yourself from mages if you leave yourself open to hackers?
If I were running it I'd probably make the thing run an agent with knowsoft to do all the situational decision-making. Oh, and I'd have the chip wipe itself under interrogation. After all, if he gets away, he can always load the backup....
Wait, there's a backup? Where does he keep it? Would that location be revealed in a mind probe? (yes, because it can't be on the chip or he wouldn't remember where it was when he needed it.) Can the players, I don't know, go on a run to get it? Always leave a hole open in the J's defence, so the players can actually do something.
If I were running it I'd probably make the thing run an agent with knowsoft to do all the situational decision-making. Oh, and I'd have the chip wipe itself under interrogation. After all, if he gets away, he can always load the backup....
Wait, there's a backup? Where does he keep it? Would that location be revealed in a mind probe? (yes, because it can't be on the chip or he wouldn't remember where it was when he needed it.) Can the players, I don't know, go on a run to get it? Always leave a hole open in the J's defence, so the players can actually do something.
I don't know, personally I think the following should cover it.
Datajack - Wireless disabled and hidden, perferably someplace where no-one would think of looking. (I don't think an actual datalock would work because then the know-soft wouldn't have the DNI it needs.)
Knowsoft - When a knowsoft is turned off the user automatically forgets whatever is in the program.
Agent - If you went the "fully monty" route and had the chip turn itself on and off then this might work, although an unmodified datajack can only run a ( Rating 3 ) Agent so it would only get to roll six die to detremine when it should activate the chip.
Now as you've suggested, the set-up isn't prefect, because the Johnson will still remember what actions he's taken to further the plan, even if he can't actually recall the plan itself. (But as you've also said, that isn't really a bad thing.)
Datajack - Wireless disabled and hidden, perferably someplace where no-one would think of looking. (I don't think an actual datalock would work because then the know-soft wouldn't have the DNI it needs.)
Knowsoft - When a knowsoft is turned off the user automatically forgets whatever is in the program.
Agent - If you went the "fully monty" route and had the chip turn itself on and off then this might work, although an unmodified datajack can only run a ( Rating 3 ) Agent so it would only get to roll six die to detremine when it should activate the chip.
Now as you've suggested, the set-up isn't prefect, because the Johnson will still remember what actions he's taken to further the plan, even if he can't actually recall the plan itself. (But as you've also said, that isn't really a bad thing.)
Quick question: Why doesn't the Guy-Who-Knows-The-Plan have body guards? It seems like the simplest way to thwart Mind Probe (and torture, interrogation, seduction, etc.) is to not let the players anywhere near the guy.
If I were the GM I would just outlaw a ranged mind probe spell, leaving them with the RAW touch range version. If a mage tries to grab Mr. Johnson to mind probe, Mr. J's bodyguards would just open fire on the rude mage.
If I were the GM I would just outlaw a ranged mind probe spell, leaving them with the RAW touch range version. If a mage tries to grab Mr. Johnson to mind probe, Mr. J's bodyguards would just open fire on the rude mage.
By Read as Written, the person who's mind is to be read by the Mindprobe-spell doesn't need to be touched at all. The target of the Mindprobe-spell, the one who benefits from this short telepathic ability can be anybody else than the mage, and that one must be touched. So, you can let your friend read the mind of the subdued one, if you want, you just have to touch him, so that he benefits from it.
You don't however have to touch your 'victim'.
You don't however have to touch your 'victim'.
...and that is why I so strongly dislike the spell. It should be touch.
...One vote for the Vulcan Mind Meld.
...One vote for the Vulcan Mind Meld.
That would only lead to magicians who still would create the version as described by RAW with the spell construction rules from Street Magic to get a better version.
At least, it's written that the victim does indeed know he's being probed, which wasn't that clear in the prior editions.
At least, it's written that the victim does indeed know he's being probed, which wasn't that clear in the prior editions.
When I Mind probed someone in a game once, I did it Vulcan mind meld style. Of course, at the end the guy was sobbing at all the memories I brought up and was an absolute mess.
However, the memories that you get from him also now become YOUR memories. My mage tends to have trouble sleeping afterwards, dreaming a past that is not his own.
However, the memories that you get from him also now become YOUR memories. My mage tends to have trouble sleeping afterwards, dreaming a past that is not his own.
| QUOTE (Trax) |
| However, the memories that you get from him also now become YOUR memories. My mage tends to have trouble sleeping afterwards, dreaming a past that is not his own. |
I like that.
| QUOTE (Trax) |
| However, the memories that you get from him also now become YOUR memories. My mage tends to have trouble sleeping afterwards, dreaming a past that is not his own. |
While I dig the roleplaying aspect, how is Mind Probe all that different from watching the trid or even reading a book? You're basically sifting through someone else's memories from a third person perspective, not jumping into their metaphysical boots and reliving them first hand.
As others in the thread have said, Mind Probe isn't all that different from other forms of interrogation. It's merely less taxing and less time consuming for both parties (unless torture and whatnot gets you off).
I think a lot of people have a prejudice against magic in the game. Most of the complaints I've seen around here come simply from the fact that an effect is magical. Be it interrogation such as in this thread, or bypassing security in others. When in doubt and concerned about a magical effect, take a step back and see if there's other means of accomplishing the same goal. If there are, then you should probably reconsider bemoaning that magical effect and instead try to concoct reasons why it wouldn't be as viable as it seems on the surface. This is usually done through the same means you'd stop someone from doing it using the alternative methods (such as not letting someone who has vitally important information go around unprotected).
Using Mind Probe as an example, if some random chump knows something he shouldn't know, then those who want to keep that information secure should eliminate either him or his memories (such as through the Alter Memory spell). The latter is an even more insidious tactic because this allows the GM to plant red herrings and other misinformation, all with said chump believing those memories to be completely true.
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Jul 22 2007, 04:36 AM) |
| I think a lot of people have a prejudice against magic in the game. |
Not a lot, just a couple of loudmouths on this forum. You should see the forums over at White Wolf's Mage game. The game is actually called Mage and there are a few posters that have been there for years constantly bitching that the magicians are too powerful, can do too much, etc. In fact the conversations are so similar, I'm pretty sure they are the same posters on this forum...
Is that dead horse still being beaten over there?
I check in every 6-12 months and read a couple of pages. They're always having the exact same conversations and arguments. It's creepy, almost like those temporal loop episodes in Star Trek, it's the same scene over and over.
| QUOTE (Ravor) |
| Is that dead horse still being beaten over there? |
Necroequisadism, a popular pastime of internet debaters.
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