It's irked me for a while that narrow bursts and full auto shots are all or nothing things, surely there must be some way to hit with just a few bullets?

This idea came to me just now. How about, if a character misses, they're allowed to roll the dice they sacrificed for recoil and see if that allowed them to hit. If it did, they treat it as a single bullet hitting and can stage it up with any net successes they score. If not, the whole burst missed.

This doesn't help Sam McSamurai, however, as only dice sacrificed to recoil can be re-rolled. If someone has recoil mods that completely negate recoil, then missing simply meant they were aiming in the wrong direction. It's also not usable with wide bursts, although statistically the chances are the same (+5 dice for attacker instead of -5 for defender) yet this mod can be used against stationary targets).

The real effect of this is to make automatic weapons more versatile for people with less recoil compensation. Is that a lofty goal, or is it something that should be discouraged?

Since your idea would complicate already lengthy combats, I am discouraging it. Also, recoil compensation is not very costly - when Sammy McSamurai can come up with this idea, then henchmen can do, too.

If you just want to make sure that you hit, thats what a wide burst is supposed to represent. You are firing a spread of bullets to ensure that the opponent cant actually dodge them.

A wide bursts extra - dice to the defender simulates just that, a narrow bursts extra dmg simulates that the shooter takes aim with the burst. 1 hit means just 1 bullet hit, 2 hits means more than 1 bullet hit, for a total of +4 dmg (+3 for narrow, +1 for extra net hit) so I dont see the problem here if you get no net hits, then you missed the guy with your "aimed" shit..

If you miss with the wide burst.. well.. you missed.. if you only got 1 net hit then you only hit with 1 bullet.. if you get 2+ net hits, you hit with more bullets..

So whats your problem ?

actually, the bullet per net hit idea doesnt hold up as a narrow burst if it hits involves all the bullets hitting (hence the extra damage), while a wide could be anything from 1 to number of bullets fired. Plus the number of shots is only 3 for short, 6 for long and 10 for full bursts.

Remember, the rules are abstracted. There is no direct connection between the number of hits and the number bullets actually hitting. Three bullets tearing at the skin can do the same damage as one bullet going through meat. A narrow burst is more likely to cause more damage if the aim is true. A wide burst makes it harder for the target to avoid the shots. The mechanics support the concept. Don't worry so much about the details. I usually don't describe the action until after the dice are rolled. Sure, we would all like to make a head shot, but unless the roll bears out massive trauma, we probably didn't get what we wanted.

As for how cheap recoil compensation is: Sure. I don't intend this rule to be for Sammy McSamurai. It's for Gavin McGanger, who wants to pump out a lot of lead without a SOTA gas-vent system on his SMG, but to still stand a good chance of hitting. This rule is also (and is indeed intended) for use with NPCs.

The problem is that uber recoil compensation has become the norm, rather than the exception, because the rules punnish uncompensated recoil so much.

As for wide bursts, I'm fully aware of their existence. The rules for using them are, however, poorly designed. They give no real advantage to a character that's using no recoil compensation, as you have a -2 penalty to hit and they have a -2 penalty to dodge. Net gain: 0, or -3 if they try and do a second wide burst in the same phase.

If someone is firing an automatic weapon, and the first bullet is aimed in the right direction, then a hit should be scored. Fully automatic weapons were developed because they gave an advantage to the attacker, and recoil compensation was developed afterwords to make them more effective. Ergo, firing a weapon in an automatic mode should give some form of advantage rather than a net loss or an all-or-nothing damage boost.

That's essentially what I'm going for. Given that a net hit on attacking means all bullets hit, surely there is a middle ground between all hitting and all missing? If you've sacrificed 9 dice to fire 10 bullets, then perhaps you could say each die represents a bullet. If, on such an attack, you *just* miss, you could perhaps consider each die to be a bullet, and so if all 9 dice score hits then you've hit with 9 bullets. If the defender had net hits, they'd cancel bullet hits normally.

As for adding extra time to combats, it doesn't need to add much. Particularly if the group has differently colored dice that could be rolled at the same time.

That's just the point, though. If you don't get any net hits, then the first bullet wasn't "aimed in the right direction", you just missed. (Discounting a hit that doesn't manage to cause damage, which the rules also already cover.)

The roll to fire the weapon (shoot somebody) isn't post-aim-and-triggerpull, it's the whole action of firing the weapon.

Edit: skimfail, that's exactly what you don't like about it currently. Disregard.

1) Pick up a shoulder strap. 10 , +1 RC.
2) -2 for -2 is actually a slight advantage. 8 dice vs. 6 wins slightly less often than 6 vs. 4*
2b) Subtract enough dice so that the dodger has no dice and the attacker "auto-wins."**
3) Multiple shooters on the same target, target dies, regardless of you DP penalty on each shooter. Every time the target dodges his next dodge is at a cumulative -1. It's the "filling the air with bullets" rule.

*3 dice vs. 1 die is about 48% compared to 2 vs. 0 at 55%
**Obviously 1 die vs. 0 wins only 33% of the time, but 2 vs. 0 is about 55%

my brain is kinda scattered at the moment but let me see if can coherently contribute to the discussion.
being that recoil compensation is not the real issue here i wont beleaguer the point of it save to say that wide bursts from an M240B, M249 or M2 machine gun are far more accurate as the spread of bullets (the cone of fire or beaten zone) is more controlled, typically in the way of a pintle mount or a tripod with traverse and elevation assembly.
to the point of hits using wide or narrow bursts i will use two examples: the M4 assault rifle and M249 squad automatic weapon (essentially a light machine gun for game purposes) as used in MOUT or urban combat.

used in semi auto the M4 is a stable platform, even while moving, provided the shooter has sufficient training. this is true generally in the case of Sammy (who has all the wiz gear to keep his rifle steady) but more difficult for Gavin. When you switch to burst or full auto that tiny little 5.56 round kicks like all hell and muzzle control is a bitch. that first round hit is likely but the second round will likely be outside of the "bowling pin" and the third maybe (and often) not even on target. this is one of the reasons why the us military eliminated full auto in its assault rifles after the vietnam conflict. since the street sam isnt really the issue here im focusing on the unaugmented npc's. firing full auto in an assault rifle is no easy task whether it be a short or wide burst. (aside: i cant speak for much smg's but the 9mm MP5 handles beautifully under full auto, suppressed or otherwise. this is, i think due mostly in part to HK's rolling block, however) i prefer to use single shots or controlled pairs (since, legally we're not allowed to call it "double tap" anymore) and the insurance round. that is to say, two to the chest, one to the head. when a target is diving for cover though (especially within 15 meters) burst fire or full auto are indeed a better way to guarantee at least one success. your average NPC may not have the training required to score net hits versus an experienced runner (depending on the kinds of goons you have on their tail)

now to the M249 SAW. as a 'light machine gun' it was never intended for accuracy and is an area weapon. when fired in MOUT there are very few options for recoil compensation and it can be very hard to control. to mitigate this we try to stick to a 6- 9 round burst and even that can be a bitch. your first couple rounds are generally going to be on target but as you lose sight picture you're going to suffer a huge degredation of accuracy out to 15 meters. one way that is taught to combat this effect is to set the weapon firmly into your stance and simply keep it in place by sheer muscle. the weapon is extremely deadly within 7 meters though. no sighting is even required at that point and you'll be able to score many net hits even hip-fired, grasping the bipod legs for support (a method of recoil compensation, i know). if your NPC lets loose with a short burst he is likely to inflict great damage. MG's can be a lot trickier to correct malfunction though (and it can happen more often than you might think).

that being said, if Gavin is firing an assault rifle at me i'm likely to move laterally while attempting to engage my target, but then i get kinda aggressive in MOUT. however if he is using a light machine gun, i'll be looking for cover. with as many rounds inside the beaten zone as a LMG can accomplish he doesnt even need to aim.
i know i didnt really provide any answers, i just hope that maybe i can jumpstart someone's brainmeats to finding that answer

When firing a burst, recoil should not effect the first bullet, only later bullets. To simulate this ignore recoil for the first burst fired in an Action Phase. For the second burst apply the recoil from the first and the second bursts.

In other words on the first short burst the recoil penalty would be 0, while on the second short burst it would be -5 assuming there is no compensation.

Short followed by short = 0, -5
Long followed by short = 0, -8
Short followed by long = 0, -8
Full = 0 (no second burst as it needs a complex action)

Recoil compensation only kicks in to help on the second burst for that Action Phase.

This makes full burst deadly, but then again maybe they should be, you are firing 10 bullets at a single target. Another downside is that you will run out of ammunition quickly.

but a good plan when not in a target-rich environment

On second thoughts maybe ignoring uncompensated recoil for the first burst is too drastic. Maybe instead ignore upto -3 of uncompensated recoil only for the first burst for the Action Phase. That will make it:

Short followed by short = 0, -5
Long followed by short = -2, -8
Short followed by long = 0, -8
Full = -6 (no second burst as it needs a complex action)

I have no problem with RAW covering automatic gunfire. Burst fire is deadly as it is, and if you don't obsess over the realism, it works well within the game system. A professional gun slinger in the shadows can reasonably have Agility 5 + Automatics 5 + 2 Smartgun link. A dice pool of 12 dice. It is easy enough to come up with a custom weapon with 5 points of RC, resulting in a -4 penalty. With 5P damage for most submachine guns, +9DV for a full burst, you wold normally have 8 dice for a 14DV attack. All you need is one net hit and the target is probably not going to shoot back anymore, even if they do survive. I'm not sure how this is nerfed in any way. Keep in mind, my stat numbers are fairly conservative for a shadowrunner who knows how to use firearms. A starting elf with implants can easily get to a 14 dice total after recoil. I'm not even pushing the max here.

One net hit and the target only needs 6 armor to have it all converted to stun.

I thought this was gonna be a thread about weapons maintenance, and wear-and-tear.

Surprise...

Well this rule has no effect for the Sammy who's maxxed his recoil compensation, and the elf with a pool of 14 is very rarely going to need to use it. These are the characters who the rules as they stand are designed for, the characters who are going to hit anyway. For them, it's just a question of how many hits they get to stage-up the damage.

The characters who these rules help are NPCs and PCs who might not have firearms as their main focus. An average human with a professional level training in automatic weapons (by the table on P108, military grunt level) has a pool of 6 from Agility 3+Automatics 3. By the rules as they stand, if they fired a full auto shot from a weapon with 1 point of recoil compensation (as most of the stock SMGs have) then they'd have absolutely no chance of hitting with any bullets, even when using a wide burst. Sure, they'd probably be using a smartlink, and could be using more recoil compensation, but a smartlink and recoil compensation shouldn't be necessary to hit with a gun, especially when you're throwing that much lead at the target. This is a flaw in the rules, and calling an attempt to correct it 'obsessing over realism' is just defending poor games design. It's the sort of game design that saw less combat oriented characters sitting around during 2nd edition combat to discover that the sam had killed everyone by the time it got to their go. Everyone should have fun in combat, not just the combat-dedicated characters.

@Wizard: I don't really like that system because it gives even more of an advantage to the people who are already gonna hit, making it even more advantageous for them to use full auto. What I want to remove is the dichotomy between more damage and accuracy, not to simply make automatic weapons fire more accurate.

@blindfox: Interesting points. One or two bullets hitting is exactly what I'm wanting to simulate with this rule.

@Draco18s: True, -2 vs -2 does give a slight advantage if the attacker's pool is larger than the defender's. Throw in cover, movement, and visibility, however, and that's not necessarily the case. You get into a situation where the attacker is more likely to hit with a single bullet than a wide burst, which is exactly what I want to avoid.

Ah, I see your point. It isn't the damage you have issue with, it is losing the accuracy on the first bullet, which should be the same as firing one bullet. I have an idea, which I haven't thought completely through, but it might help the process. Tie the DV bonus to the attacker's weapon skill. A trained character will know how to get the most out of automatic fire, while a rookie will just waste ammunition. The, continue to stack recoil penalties until the character takes a free or simple action to aim, clearing the penalties as they get the firearm back on target. This may seem excessive, considering an average thug will have 1 IP and 3 seconds are a long time.



I think the comparison is a bit off. The original initiative system was probably more accurate, allowing faster characters to move more times. A character who can do three times as much as a regular character will probably do so before the regular character. However, I also see your point here, as well. It isn't about realism, it is about giving regular characters a chance to get involved. Make their shots count, and keep them in the action before the specialists take away all the opportunities.

In a fire fight, I always thought the object was to stop someone shooting back. What difference does it make if I stun them out of commission or I kill them? If you really want to kill them, shoot them again. They won't be dodging. If your goal is to kill them, don't do it on their terms. That is what explosives or sniper rifles are for.

Very true, they'll be out cold. But they'll survive.

IIRC, you're generally better-off using stun damage, particularly against trolls and orks. See, physical damage tracks increase with body, but stun damage tracks increase with willpower. Most grunts will have longer physical tracks than body tracks, and some would consider the +5 AP on flechette rounds to be a bonus as it increases the chance of an attack being converted to stun.

This is even true when when fighting mages as, even though they're likely to lave longer stun tracks, they're also likely to accrue some stun damage during the fight from drain.

Also, why would any mage want to use mannabolt/ball over stun bolt/ball? Mannabolt does damage to a longer track, so it's harder to take an opponent down, and it has a higher drain code to boot.

Quite seriously, I don't think enough PLAYERS know how effective suppression fire can be. Especially in most of the places runners engage in combat: halls, corridors, alleys, etc.

hehe....oh how i love thee suppression fire and held actions. My runners have learned not to move out of cover unless they are ABSOLUTELY SURE that there are no enemies still there

i and my players understand it, only too well which is why we avoid it at all costs, preferring the single, well-aimed shot.

oh, and btw, for some flavor in describing those hits, weapons firing in burst or full automatic fire, when held in a firm stance tend to have a muzzle climb high and to the right. shots will track from center mass up to the left shoulder. if the weapon isnt held firmly the weapon can jump from center to high in any direction.

Sure they can, for an acceptable value of "Full Auto", that value being a Long Burst.

Base Dice Pool: 6
Take Aim Action: +1 die
Long Burst Action: -4 dice (reduced from -5 by 1 point of compensation)
Resultant Dice Pool: 3

Sure, 3 dice isn't great, but it is a chance to hit and by using a wide burst you've reduced your enemies pool by 5. Throw on two easily available pieces of gear (Laser Sight, Sling) that even most gangbangers could afford and you reduce your penalty to -2, or a total pool of 5.

If you're a basic goon in this kinda situation and need more dakka than a Long Burst, bypass the Full Burst and go straight to Suppressive Fire where neither your recoil compensation nor your lack thereof will affect things.

Or get more gangers. If four of them are full-auto-ing a single character, there's NO WAY That character is not getting hit. Even with the gangers only throwing 3 dice, the PC should be accumulating dodge penalties (-5 for the long burst, -3 more against the fourth ganger shooting him, 3 dice vs. 0 = hit).

And howdy!

Again, you're just defending poor rules design. The flaw is that the character is still less likely to hit when using more bullets without recoil compensation, it's less pronounced in this example but the flaw is still there.
On a single shot, you get to roll Agility + Automatics + Whatever, versus Reaction. Suppressive fire arguably removes the "+ Whatever" modifier and lets the opponent add their edge to their dodge pool. Again, we have a situation where using more bullets gives a lower chance to hit, but this time we're using 20 bullets, and we can't do more than base weapon damage.

Yes, you could potentially hit multiple opponents, but what if there's only one opponent?

It looked cool in the comics books they used as design documents.....

Actually I'm not defending anything. I'm merely pointing out that there is indeed at least one by-the-rules situation wherein someone with a baseline of skill and training, yet lacking excessive recoil compensation or a smartlink, has a chance to hit with fully automatic fire in contrast to your claim that "they'd have absolutely no chance of hitting". A small chance perhaps, but an extant one. I made no value judgements--nor do I make them now--as to whether this was a desirable situation or not.

The firearms rules are crazy unrealistic. Having faster reflexes increases your rate of fire? Say what?

The point is, they're fun, and despite Shadowrun getting a new edition, they still have that nice nostalgic Shadowrun feel. There have been a lot of proposals to monkey with the firearms rules, but IMO they're all more trouble than they're worth.

Umm... no. No way. Your proposed rule is drek.

Automatics are already one of the absolute best types of weapons. And this just means... if I fire and barely miss... I add more dice just because I can and reduce the damage AFTER THE FACT.

That, lies in the realm of edge, and edge use. Automatics don't need another feather in their hat in gameplay.

Stick w/ the basic narrow/wide. And don't slow things down more by providing an essentially unlimited 'edge' to add more dice every time you come close but not quite. And when you don't... automatically increased damage.

Fistly, let's try to stick to the intellectual discussion before labeling something as "drek".

I agree that automatics are an effective weapon type, but the problem is that they're only fully effective when fitted with SOTA gas vents and so on. Without them, many characters are better-off shooting in semi-automatic mode. It's counter intuitive that firing more bullets should give a lower chance to hit, but that's how the rules stand and that's something I've had to explain to many new players. This rule, however, has absolutely no effect if the character is using full recoil compensation, so I don't think it's game breaking.

Secondly, the effects of this rule are nothing like those of edge. What this rule does, however, is say "The worst you could do is to shoot a single bullet" as if the gun is aimed in the right direction then the first bullet is going to go that way. The character should thus be able to roll their full pool with the weapon being used, representing their skill at aiming the weapon, and this rule never lets anyone roll more than their full pool. That's how it differs from Edge.

Nothing needs to be done after the fact, either. That's just an easier way of looking at things, as if the reduced number of dice hits then there's no point in looking at the rest. Let's say Garry McGanger has a pool of 10 dice and is firing a short burst with no recoil compensation (-2 RC). He rolls 8 green dice and 2 blue dice. You could look at all 10 dice and see if the first bullet hits, then remove the 2 blue dice and see if it still hits, but seeing as the blue dice don't need to be considered if the green dice hit then it's easier to do it the other way round.

As for giving an automatic weapons a feather in their cap, I personally would have said that firing automatic weapons without sufficient recoil compensation carries an illogical stigma. This rule removes one of the disadvantages of firing in burst fire, but a character without recoil compensation might still be better-off firing a semi-automatic shot. This is for more logical reasons, however, like to avoid the recoil being applied to their second shot in a phase, and the fact that they'd be expending more ammo. If I'm expecting to fall back on how well the first bullet hit, why would I waste the other bullets?

I'm looking at the statistics at the moment. As it stands, if an attacker with no recoil compensation and a pool of 10 attacks someone with a dodge of 4, there's a 80.19% chance of a single shot hitting. A short burst has a 69.20% chance of hitting with all bullets. This rule reinstates the extra 10.99% chance of hitting with the first bullet, which I don't really think is game breaking given that they've used more bullets.

Find me a Real World gun that fires full auto without any gas vent system.

Then find me someone who can hit anything smaller than the ground when using it.

Hah! I got you on this one. Put said person inside a barn ... up on the top level. They'll be hitting more than ground for sure. They will be hitting BARN!

Hmmm ... okay, so it really doesn't present any real challenge. As you were.

Hey now, they have to at least be hitting the broad side of it on command. ;P

The H&K MP5, for one. To be fair, though, the MP5 has some pretty above average recoil compensation in the action and bolt system itself.

To which I'd say that it solved the same problem using a different method. Gas vent just happens to be the extremely common one.

Ahhh, that explains things better to me, I misunderstood your initial post.

So basically you put aside a number of dice equal to the recoil compensation penalty. If the burst attack misses, either before or after the defender rolls his defense roll, you roll these dice and add them to original roll, but now the attack is treated as a single bullet attack with no burst bonuses.

That works well! Maybe it should only apply to the first burst in an Action Phase as the gun is already recoiling from the first burst. This assumes the second burst is fired immediately after the first.

But, yeah, I am going to use the rule as it also bugs me that just by firing a burst you have less chance of hitting with the first bullet.


Here's the rule as I will be using it:

The following rule only applies to the first burst fired in an Attack Phase. The second burst fired does not benefit in any way as the weapon is already suffering from recoil, if not compensated, and the attacker needs time to be able to steady it which requires another Attack Phase.

For the first burst fired in an Attack Phase, put aside a number of dice equal to the recoil compensation penalty. If the burst attack misses, either before or after the defender rolls his defence roll, you roll these dice and add them to original roll, but now the attack is treated as a single bullet attack with no burst bonuses.

M249 Squad Automatic Weapon and the M60 Light Machine Gun... both of which are gas operated, but neither of which have a true Improved Gas Vent System to compensate for recoil...

Now, the average US Marine Corps gunner can utilize both of these weapons to somewhat devastating capabilities... even at medium to long ranges...

That's because they both have the equivalent of recoil comp based on being Very Heavy, right? It's like, they have the heavy barrel mod a bunch of times...

Heavy barrel, shoulder stock and bipod. The average US Marine is toting around 4 points of RC for full bursts, 3 points for long and short bursts.

I'll modify my original request:

Find me a gun with no recoil compensation.

Then find me someone who can hit anything with it.

if you're trying to find a weapon that fires in full-auto with no recoil comp then yer gonna have some trouble. all machine guns (M249, PKM, M60 et al) are going to have a butt stock for shoulder-fire and bipods are only meant to be used from the prone (though they can be used as a fore-grip in a pinch). the sling is never used as a method for stabilizing the weapon during firing, only to carry the sumanabitch. and the barrels on all machine guns, when used in continuous fire will melt. bursts are used not only for accuracy but to try to keep the heat down. spare barrels are used to switch out the hot ones. so you will never find a machine gun without some form of recoil compensation.

you will never find an assault rifle without a butt stock either (unless modded by the end user). slings, however can be made to stabilize the weapon during firing if done correctly. also the muzzle of most assault rifles capable of full auto fire will have a compensator that is essentially a gas vent system as it directs the gas upwards as the bullet leaves the barrel, forcing the barrel downwards just a little bit. so, most likely, you will never find an assault rifle without some form of recoil compensation.

this pretty much just leaves smg's and machine pistols. i'll start with the latter as i can sum that one up more quickly. all machine pistols have a gas vent system much the same as the assault rifles. machine pistols have fluted and sometimes extended barrels. these are always done in the same fashion, venting gas upwards to try to mitigate muzzle climb. smg's have many of the same features of assault rifles but there are a few off the top of my head that have no real recoil compensation. most notably the Tec9. this weapon has a heat shield but i dont believe its barrel is fluted for venting gasses. so, for all intents and purposes, you will only rarely find a very small weapon shooting a subsonic round without some form of recoil compensation.

as to the second point, anyone with enough training on a particular system can become a bad ass

Good! Now apply the same logic to ShadowRun:

While you can buy uncompensated full auto weapons, no one is going to use them full auto unless they get some RC, strap, heavy barrel, and a grip are cheap and work anywhere all the time. Grab a shoulder stock or a bipod for deployable if-you-have-time extra reduction.

Bingo... Though I will go on record saying that the MkII Barrel for the M60 is a piece of crap, weighing less than half of the original that it replaced in 1989... Lightweight piece of crap... burned out 3 of them on an op once... useless...

As for a heavy barrel on the M249... I would say not... it is pretty light grade metal

Replace the heavy barrel with a Sling and there you have it...


As for weight... Yes, they are heavy...

Don't know about you BlindFox, but I HAVE use a sling to assist in stabilization when firing an M60 or M249... Also, the Foregrip is a big help for additional stabilization on the M60...

As for the 2nd Point... Exactly...


Just wanted to add my 2 cents here...

Well, i do agree that for the most part firing without recoil compensation wouldn't hit anything but the ground. The exception to this is on the first bullet. The first bullet would hit whatever you were aiming at.

There's also a lot of talk about recoil compensation. Well, if few to no weapons exist IRL that have no recoil compensation, then why do so many in the SR universe have no recoil compensation as standard? Has weapons technology regressed, or is the base line for a point of recoil compensation in SR greater than "A fluted barrel" or "a bolt action"? Is it reasonable to look at which of these measures the AK47 had, and so translate it to the base-line for the AK97?

Now let's take an AR with no recoil-compensation in shadowrun, the AK97. Give it to a good marksman, let's say skill 4/stat 4, and get him to fully line the shot up (+4). Even without giving him a smartlink, he's on a >50% chance of hitting with all bullets under ideal conditions (immobile target, etc). If a hit with a full burst doesn't necessarily mean all bullets hitting in yow you describe your combats, it's notable that he's at-least going to do more damage than if he fired a 3- or 6-round burst. Should that be possible with no recoil compensation?

I would suggest that "no recoil compensation" does not actually mean "no recoil-handling measures whatsoever" in the shadowrun system. Some guns go beyond the base line, but if it's possible to hit with a lot of bullets using no recoil compensation then 0 doesn't necessarily mean not present. It just means that the design of weapons has advanced to the point that reasonably good recoil handling is the standard, but it's still possible to take measures beyond this.

Now let's bring the shadowrun rules to bear, and the actual point of my argument. If the average marine has 3 points of RC, and they fire a full burst, what should be the chances that they hit with the first bullet? Surely they should be the same as his chances of hitting with a single shot, not greatly reduced.

See, I have no problem with professionals using a little recoil compensation to hit reliably with a burst. My main gripe is with the first bullet/burst problem, where firing more bullets makes you less likely to hit under the SR rules. Even if you got a weapon with absolutely no compensation and no recoil-handling measures, disabling whatever you see fit to, then if you gave that gun to a good marksman: they would probably hit with the first bullet.