All I can say is that Shadowrun has drifted from its cyberpunk roots with each passing year. Which is sort of inevitable, I guess; cyberpunk was born of the fears of the 80s, and pretty much wiped out by the optimism of the 90s. But the elements are still there, often more by implication than specifically stated.

What would the effects of extraterritorial megacorporations really be? I think it would be completely and utterly devastating to governments everywhere. Wealthy people would immediately find ways to take advantage of it to avoid paying taxes. Middle class people would be lured into corporate enclaves; with all the danger and disease on the streets, it wouldn't be a hard sell, even if the corp offers them a lower paycheck with the caveat that their pay would be untaxed... so pretty soon you have those who can, living walled away from everyone else, and whatever social services might have once existed disappear with the loss of tax base. The poor generally have no escape, just dead-end service and janitorial jobs. The very brightest students might get sucked up and whisked away by corporations willing to put them through college in exchange for lifelong service. Once someone is employed by a corporation, it's difficult to leave without the corp's permission; since the corporation often is the entity that provided education and shelter for an employee as well as a job, the worker feels compelled to stay, and the corp is free to user whatever considerable leverage it has over the employees in order to coerce them into working harder, maybe longer hours...

Streets fall into disrepair, police and firemen are underpaid or nonexistent, schools shut down. Streets become less safe as municipalities can't afford to have them patrolled; policework is given over to private contractors, who often have lower pay and less demanding standards of justice. Smaller businesses are shut down as bigger more convenient superstores are put up, draining more money from poorer areas. Militaries collapse, allowing further decay of national unity. Any environmental law that hasn't been unwritten by corporate flunkies is safely ignored, since the government can hardly afford to keep watch, and has no jurisdiction over many corporate sites, and is safely in the pockets of corporations anyway, desperate to be given a bone. Arcologies pop up, partly to keep its employees in a safe, sterile environment away from the rampant air pollution and the street violence, partly as a way of increasing their dependence on the corp.

This IS a portrait that early Shadowrun portrayed; governments were practically ignored, since they had no jurisdiction over any of the aspects of shadowrunner life. I think this has been sort of forgotten over the years, but it still pops up now and then. The UCAS, for example, was totally unequipped militarily to deal with the Chicago problem.

And if that doesn't sound like a situation that's pretty hopeless, sorry, I don't know exactly what you think hopeless would be. There are plenty of people out there who are hopeless today, but they probably don't have the convenience of playing RPGs or surfing the internet. There might be hope on an individual level, but that hope is a sham. Also, there's no way a medieval peasant would feel LESS free than a modern person in a developed country. That's absurd.

The point of cyberpunk was to show a society at it's worst, in a fictional construct. Look at all the bad things that happen today, or that people would say happen today, extrapolate into the future to the Nth degree. Of COURSE it's an exaggeration, but that's the point. If you need help understanding, go watch some Noir films, the best of which exude the kind of nihilism that cyberpunk reaches for. There's no real hope for a better day tomorrow in the Maltese Falcon, or Out of the Past, or even Chinatown. And part of the cyberpunk genre is that yes, people DO forget how to laugh and cry and appreciate beauty. It's part of the dehumanizing factor of technology, corporate thinking, and yes, cyberware. Shadowrun was never very effective at evoking that particular aspect of it, simply because Essence loss doesn't translate into any obvious roleplaying effects.

Cyberpunk is an artificial style, and its conventions are pretty well known. It's well established that Shadowrun grew out of cyberpunk. If you don't like the cyberpunk, that's fine, although I think Shadowrun without the cyberpunk is pretty much inert. I don't bother pretending Shadowrun is realistic, because it's absolutely ont, and there's nothing in the books to indicate that it is a realistic setting.

Apart from the years ~5000-2000BC to ~1980s, during which everything happens (and is) almost exactly the same as IRL. There must be something realistic in the setting for that to be possible.

I think Angstrun is inert just like you think a hopeful Shadowrun is. No worries, as long as we don't play in the same game.

Except for the dragons, the magic, the wired reflexes, the complete annihilation of nations, the immersive virtual reality matrix... yeah, it's about as realistic as your average action movie.

The United States, Canada, China, and Germany all basically crumbled, and the nation(s) that took their place are really only a shadow of those countries' powers. Some are terribly unrealistic too... a new Confederacy? Native American Nations? Pipe dreams. And I said the game is like an action movie because the rules are written like an action movie. That's the kind of reality the rules system reflects. Nobody gets broken legs after a bout of magic-enhanced martial arts, or has to patch up internal organs after getting shot up. And most of the science behind the cyberware is sketchy at best.

I'm playing up the angle that the cyberpunk future is bleak, but I don't that means it's 'angsty'. It's neurotic, and highly stylized, and amoral, but that doesn't mean there aren't any human stories to tell. Nor does it mean it can't be fun, in a gritty kind of way. And I also of course don't mean every second of every session has to be bleak and hopeless. Merely that the cyberpunk background is important to the setting.

The caveat of requiring an Awakening kind of associates it with fantasy, not reality . The way things stand now, another secession is just not in the cards, regardless of the romantic aspirations of some southerners.

It doesn't require the Awakening, just some sort of massive, ongoing trauma. The Awakening just fits the bill nicely

~J

In the more general sense, governments are basically powerless in day to day life in a way that isn't true today. That's what I meant by annihilated. And you seem to prefer Shadowrun that is just modernist fantasy, which is fine. But that's not what it was when it started, and I'd prefer they stick to the mix of cyberpunk and fantasy that gave birth to it.

I don't want "just" modernist fantasy. My SR world is still pretty darn pessimistic about how things turn out. I simply find the level of bleakness some people use to describe their worlds too funny to use with a straight face in my games. I'm pretty sure we're both still talking about a type of cyberpunk, yours is just closer to the "bleak" end of the spectrum, mine more realworldish.

There's no point in me discussing what SR was like originally, because I only started playing a few years back. From the few books I have, the world could still be interpreted to be much "nicer" than I made it out to be.

See, I never really considered the governments that broken down, because there are still large parts of the U.S. (for example) which are crappy in a way inner cities aren't. That exurban, detached way that makes life just so much sadder. However, it's really not even been discussed IRL until the housing boom of the 90s, and it's very different from the impression of built-up urbanism in my reading of other cyberpunk. It's more like Snow Crash than Blade Runner that way, IRL and in my interpretation of the game.

But I was also thinking that the world was darker in a way years ago because, frankly, we didn't know as much (IRL or IC) about the world. I blame Shadowbeat for actually explaining the world. Sure we get info that bloodsports are standard cable fare, but also it kills a lot of the mystery when we got rules on rockers and a listing of the type of canon trid fare. I did kind of prefer the idea of someone mentioning Neil the Ork Barbarian and leaving you to think, "What the hell kind of show is that?" Basically, it's allowed for a less creative GM in the name of expansion.

I think that's one of the things that bugs me about CD and SoNA (and SoE when I get it), is that characters discuss major events with intimate familiarity like the state of the nations, which is especially amusing in light of the fact that I know most people discussing government and politics are talking about it straight out of their puckerholes, and even the people paid to talk about it are usually full of crap. And it makes the whole enterprise look especially amusing when you reduce nations to 14-page spreads. The only utility is in knowing that in 14 pages you still get a lot of room to keep the mystery, and especially if you consider the (shadow)author to be, well, not completely informed. Which is how I have kept myself from hunting down Szeto for writing the PCC chapter of SoNA (well, actually for wasting my time reading and correcting it).

But it'd be very hard to keep it as mysterious as it was in SR1 after 15 years unless you just stop producing material like R. Tal did with CP2020. You just have to look harder for the dark edges, and then keep walking.

She left him finally.

Said she’d had enough, though of what neither knows. He cries about it, screams and throws his cof’tea maker down, but not when she is near. Calm and in control, even a smile. The smile looks painful, but she pretends everything’s fine. She has filled her life with things, forgets to care. He is empty and embarrassed. He knows he failed, she’s much happier now. He hasn’t told his family, his friends. Not yet.

He goes out with them on a Friday, after the week of mindless work. Drinking, clubbing. Having fun, they call it. He doesn’t have fun though. He thinks but covers it up by being loud. His tight nerves shatter at the smallest slight, he boils in anger, only cooled by sadness.

At the bars he places himself to close to the trolls, butting his self against them. One makes a move to strike, but an ork interferes and points to the bouncer. The troll snarls and spits out, “Fucking Humanis.” They leave him there. He wants to shout, “I’m not Humanis! I don’t care that you’re a troll. I just want to know if I’m still alive!”

He knows he should tell someone. He’s afraid to even speak most of the time, afraid to revel what he thinks, afraid he’ll burst into tears. He had lived a dream, he is sure now. The ancient dream so long sleeping of a wife and child, a job and future. It didn’t belong to him; he didn’t deserve it.

Selfish is the word he uses to describe himself. But he longs for it. He needs to dream it once more. His lips are dry; his hands shake; he buys the dream sealed on a small chip, and can hardly wait, but is so afraid. The dream is so real, so wonderful. What he had was no better, was it even real? Did it matter?

Enthralling thread folks.

My thoughts exactly Question Man, interesting thread.

I find it strange to compare an rpg with realism, as one of the primary goals of any rpg I've ever run was to escape. What is reality? Subjective reality is what a rpg is... each plays it according to thier own ideas about it, and often enough the idea one player envisions is different than the idea of anothers, even in the same game. (I've witnessed arguments that actually centered on that issue though the participants didn't realize it.) However the "realities" in which we live are subjective as well, seen through our own individual lenses, or at the very least relative. So again, it's interesting to watch this thread suggest the concept that one's game is more realistic than anothers...

I enjoyed very much Kanada's anecdotes , thanks for the fun.

Speaking of which K10...where's the rest?

[chant]

We want more!

We want more!

We want ... [/chant]

ah, screw it. I'm to old for this. Just get on with it buddy.

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It's important for you to jack-out of the Matrix at least once per day. A ten minute hygiene routine and bathroom break along with a healthy diet and proactive vitamins will help keep you running longer. You can make your stand against high health care costs by maintaining regular cleaning and eating practices.

Don't forget to wear clothing when you go outside. While the surfing the Matrix naked won't kill you, going outside that way might. The buddy system can help keep you safe and dressed right, so bring a friend along. These times away from your station can be productive ones if you just follow the simple corporate structure.

Good Luck and Log Out!

Everyone in the future is thin, pretty, and smells good - but not by choice.

The light from our blubs gently caresses your skin with photonic rays that excite the senses and invigorate the mind. Seriously.

Having fun, K10?

I hope I'm not the only one...

The Digital Family: One overworked parent, one overspoiled child and a telecom.

Nope. Keep it up.

Feel like dying? Try NERPS: they're worth living for.

The hottest selling bumper sticker for the third year in a row, "What would Dunkelzahn do?", along with WWDD t'shirts and jewelry, has reportedly made multi-millions of nuyen over the trademark for the Draco Foundation. Only in Denver did the "Don't make me go all Ghostwalker on your ass!" surpass the Dunkelzahn sales.

Ghostwalker's too long. "G-Dub."

Pshaw. The proper abbreviation is clearly "G-shizzle".

~J

"My mayor can beat up your mayor."

695,000 Lawyers
179,000 EMT and Paramedics
840,000 Police and Detectives
476,000 Correctional Officers
66,000 News Analysts, Reporters, and Correspondents
48,000 Private Detectives and Investigators
1,000,000 Security Guards and Gaming Surveillance Officers

2,500,000 Awakened (1%).

A special re-release of the 2007 sitcom "He's a Company Jew" will be out this November following a successful rerun on Ares ABC. The show depicts a Japanese-American employee, Jason Lee (Jerry Saito), pretending to be Jewish in order to get a few days off in his strict, unnamed Japanacorp. It aired in a period when Shiawase dominated the news with the first American arcology and their leap into practical nationhood. While popular among Americans who still believed the corps had to honor religious holidays, Shiawase attempted to sue the broadcasters and producer, and "He's a Company Jew" was even banned in Japan.

The comedy is a bit outdated and stereotypical, deriving most of the humor from seeing Jason outwit his supervisor, "Mr. Oh-My-God-Ah" as Jason would say. The hero of the story does everything he can to get out of work and get with the hot secretaries while trying to appear "virtually" in the synagog (a Jewish place of worship) and practice his Buddhism unnoticed. But, after their first season they'd used every cliche and sitcom formula leaving only the stale acting and routines. Luckily, this new release only features those first fifteen episodes along with interviews with Jerry Saito, Jill Jamenson (the original writer) and Kevin Smith (the show's producer).

Lol, Kevin Smith producing that... (there aren't nearly enough dick and fart jokes for that to have his name on it and be popular)

You obviously haven't seen the show.

Hot Sec1: "Why Hason, why you no working?"
Jason: "I'm Jewish, baby. You want I should convert you?" <wink>

With a different actress every week portraying the enamored secretary, and Jason's coffinmate, a horny accountant, the show never ran out of fart jokes... though the dick jokes were a little short. God, I kill me.

So, knowing his current MO, who plays the coffinmate? Ben Afflect or Matt Damon? As Jason Mews will either be ecased in carbonite after a failed 3rd try at rehab or he'll be reprising his role as Jay.

Jay appears as Jasons half-step brother always trying to score exxxtreme henti porn. The coffinmate, Lou Li, is played by Jackie Chan, often found in the shared "apartment" on disability due to his 'orrible gas. The episode where Jason, Lou, and Hot Secretary get locked in and the exhaust fan dies is one of the funniest. Mister Oh-My-God-Ah (that's what she said <wink>), finally gets the door open and sees Jason working on the fan and says, "Ha Ha! I've got you now! It's Sabbeeth and you're working! How u explain dat!?" "Well, like Jesus says, 'if a man has one sheep, he can work to save it.'" "Curse you!" <walks out> The hot sec says, "I though the Jews didn't like Jesus..." "Yeah, but the chicks like 'em cause he's well hung."

PG13

Here at Feeling Groovy, we know that long commute home is filled with anxiety about the day and what you'll find at home. But rest easy streaming our easy listening media and let the satisfying relaxing waves of our Feeling Groovy simsense wash over you. The drive home will never seem long enough, and you'll come home feeling renewed to face those troublesome challenges...

Of course, this doesn't even need wireless 'trix, since you could have chips that play from your car's "stereo" through the datajack port or using a dreamdeck.

What I do not understand is why the heck nobody just writes this stuff themselves. For crying out loud, many shows only last about eight episodes before being knocked off the airwaves. Corps go kaput, new corps are formed, etc. etc. etc.
In reference to the tendency of inner-city areas to become deserted, Seattle fits this pattern...sort of. Because a good deal of the population does not have a SIN (and cannot pay for an apartment), the primarily deserted areas are teeming with the poor and shadow-y. Of course, there's probbably an epicenter where you'll find nothing but a few destitute squatters and some toxic shamans, but almost anywhere else cheap and habitable is most likely taken.


Also, I politely request that you eliminate any religious jokes unless they apply to a hate group. (The KKK or skinhead churches are fair game by me.) Those of us who are Jewish or Buddhist (or both!) tend to be highly offended by this kind of thing.

Of course, the fact that I'm actually insulting racists passes right over your head. Try to remember where the show originated, who it's directed at, and who it's actually making fun of. Certianly not religion, though I don't seperate the religious from the secular (since life doesn't). Not that I will ever stop making jokes about anything unless I'm forced to, and a Jewish Buddhist is just to funny to pass up.

As to your first point.. eh?

We do?

But, back to the original subject of this thread: modern life indeed.

Relgious, racist, and knock-knock jokes are all funny. I say let people have their fun.

First off, knock knock jokes are >not< funny. Unless they're racial, religious, or vulgar... then they are, in fact, quite comical
One of the things mentioned in this thread got me pretty interested, though... As far as hopelessness in Shadowrun goes, I'd say that the general setting is a far cry from A Brave New World. It's not like everybody and their dog is taking heroin and snorting a line just so they can get out of bed. My general opinion of the lower-middle and middle class of Seattle in 2060 is they're financially motivated consumers. Kinda like people now. They get appropriately outraged at the propaganda -- er, news that they watch, they do their jobs more or less unthinkingly, and try to make sure their world changes as little as possible (this primarily manifests itself in people fucking things up).
Obviously, it's a little more bleak than that, what with asbolutely no police coverage in the poor areas (whereas police at least show up after killings ATM), corporations taking the form of nations, that kind of thing. Personally, my view of Shadowrun is a lot closer to Snow Crash with a good amount of Neuromancer and a sprinkling of SLA (A Truly Hopeless roleplaying universe).
[EDIT] And then I realized I just posted to a dead thread...[/EDIT]

This thread was awesome until the Jews ruined it.