Granted we do not know what traces spells may leave on a victim, I am willing to concede that it may be possible that a forensics mage may be able to infer from certain evidence the Force of the spell. Depending on how you describe magic in your games, there can be physical evidence. Astral evidence may be present on the victim as emotional imprints. What I used as examples were imperfect analogies, especially since we do not know how magic work IRL. Without any canon evidence as to how a spell manifests in the SR world, it is entirely up to the GM to decide. You have stated the way you see magic.

However, it is a felony committed using magic is pre-mediated. Not casting magic per se.

After reading through I have 2 bits.

1) What about spells that have a variable effect capped by their force? How would this be detected. 2 mages could cast the same spell, 1 casts at force 5 and acheives a force 2 success and the second mage casts at force 2 and achieves a force 2 success, can forensics tell the difference?
2) Stimpatching away magic is definately "Cruel and unusual" punishment. Nobody would suggest amputation to stop a speeding/dangerous driving motorist from re-offending.

I have always ruled it is how the spell is used. here is several examples that Lone Star would let you walk with despite you 'harmful' spell use:

A: Troll ganger opens up on the Dairy Empress with his brand new Ares Thunderer. Without thinking you whip off Stun Bolt at force 6. Lone Star would lose the report in a round file (odd that it caught fire afterwards)

B. Runaway truck about to cross an intersection. Thinking quickly you cast your Physical Barrier 8 and follow by making a huge pothole with Toxic Wave 6. You work in a chemical factory containing spills or alkaline. Since it is normally extraterritorial you never had to register.

C: Angry mob is about to start looting, but their path includes your home. Now being the tricky mind controlling guy you are you cast Mob Mood 10 and send them home. Again the report disappears.


In all these cases the spells would be hideously illegal, but Lone Star would not care because A: You helped them out, B:You potentially saved lives, and C: While it might have been illegal or destructive it was so much better than the alternative.

At worst they bring you in to keep their own image up, give you coffee and donuts and send you on your merry way with the message "Just dont lets us see you doing that again" Remember, the SR rule set has a combative bent to it.

the law will prosecute somebody for knowing an illegal spell (especially combat spells) with as much enthusiasm as they would an illegal gun. (more because magic is feared by many voters) now look at cops today. Every time they find somebody with an illegal firearm they prosecute but they don’t wast there time looking for them.

If you do anything bad with it you will get worse.

As to chance of getting a conviction if you get a mundane jury it is that much easier. A a respectable looking forensic magician on the stand that dresses like a cop and talks like a scientist will reassure them of his integrity and a couple of pictures of the horror that can be wrort with magic should secure a knee jerk conviction based on fear. As has been said this bit is for the lawyers

As to the forensic mage looking at the victim by the time you have a victim to consider the force of the spell you used is probably the least of your worries.

Botch said “2) Stimpatching away magic is definitely "Cruel and unusual" punishment. Nobody would suggest amputation to stop a speeding/dangerous driving motorist from re-offending.”

There have been numerous calls (and I believe implementation in some arias) of physical or chemical sterilization of sex offenders. In the wake of the great ghost dance I would not be surprised to see fear run to the point where striping somebody of there magic was common place (likely they didn’t know how back then).

While some of the lost file scenarios are valid it depends on eth cops involved and there individual attitudes towards magic,. Of orthazar’s examples I would only expect to get away with B if I stayed on the seen. Provided I slipped away discreetly on A it would not be investigated. C would be investigated unless the targets of eth spell where sinles or the cop was in a like minded mood (mordantly likely).

I doubt it is beyond the loan star budget to send a mage to every significant crime seen where the initial attending officer suspects magic and the victim possesses a sin. Considering the low number of magicals in the word and the high salaries they command few would be forced to a life of crime compared to mundane criminals.

Edward

I have to agree with Dr. Funk; some spells like Fast (described as a spell that rich people use to diet) and Entertainment (which I imagine might be popular in Las Vegas) can't possibly have the same level of legal punishment (even at high force) as an obvious one like Mana Bolt.

"I would like Toxic Wave 6 permit for breaking down raw sewage." I would laugh so hard at that one. Funny think is it might actually work.

Paranormal animal hunting. You will need proof of membership in some group that has semiregular paranormal hunting sessions, and possibly a DNA encoded note from one of the elder members of the group supporting your spell aquisition, while the group itself must be in good standing with law enforcement.

I can also see getting away with stunball with the line "well, there's a lot of troll gangs near where I live."

I'll address my analogy later, when there's a lull at work. I don't have access to MitS; what are the rules for Fast?

The thing about a lot of these "harmless" spells is that they will never reasonably be used by Joe Public at a force higher than 2. If you've taken a Serious wound, the only one you would need a Force 6 Heal spell for, there's a decent chance you've also screwed something else up and need medical attention. Being able to just Heal someone of their apparent injuries on the street might result in them not seeking medical attention for the underlying problems. That right there is reason enough to regulate the spell at forces above 2. For Trid Phantasm/etc., the only reasons for higher force are to increase area (IIRC) and to make it easier to work on unwilling targets.

~J

Whether or not someone would "reasonably use" a spell at a high force has nothing to do with anything. There is nothing even remotely illegal about the effect of a Healthy Glow spell regardless of the force. There is nothing even remotely illegal about the effect of a Fast/Nutrition spell at any force. Ditto for (Trid) Entertainment, Makeover, Fix, Translate, or Create Food. In fact, a few of those spells are all but useless at lower levels.

You keep focusing on a spell like Heal. That's definitely one that would require a licensed practioner to legally use beyond cuts and scrapes (Force 2). But not all spells are like that.

Yeah, I agree with ya on that.

There is something to be said about the difference between agressive (harmful) spells and passive (non-harmful) spells.

Especially when the penalty, fine, and license costs and requirements are identical across the board.

I focus on spells like Heal because that’s usually the most commonly presented one that people claim wouldn’t be regulated. The ones you bring up I’m not going to try to argue against.
~J

They got lazy.

If I had the extra time, I'd go through and try and re-balance it and post it here, but I'm a little booked right now even with 2 weeks off since I'm doing the SLEUTH thing, my RPGi thing (which I'm behind on), and a new website that I'm making right now that is Shadowrun related humor.

Not really. Murder is death where I live, no buts, no pardons, no nothing. Heck, you will hang even if you threaten someone with a replica gun. It does not matter if you shot someone with a pistol or an assault rifle, you die.

Depends on how you run your games, I guess.

There is a difference between killing with a gun and using a gun to torcher and kill somebody (shotgun to the groin) but I wouldn’t expect a difference based on wether I shot somebody in the head killing them instantly with a .22 a 10mm or a 12 gage shotgun.

The difference you suggested would be like killing somebody with a force 6 power ball cast at deadly and killing somebody with a fire manipulation cast at serious and calling the shot for the groin. The different spell isn’t what gets you a harsher sentence its how you use it.

If it is found that the weapon (or spell) you used to kill somebody was illegal you could also have a charge of illegally poseing a firearm (or spell) and be convicted of this as well but the sentence would likely be served concurrently if they bothered to charge you with it.

Edward

I see you point about my analogy...it could have been better. I apologize.

But you bring up an interesting point.
Fire might be considered cruel and unusual since doing so today is.

But yes, the level is actually a consideration.
Because the law prohibits the use of Force 3 or above, so if you kill someone with above that, you are going to get "Use of a controlled magical formula without a permit" added on to your murder charge.

Courts don't often wrap the whole murder up into one charge.
There's often times multiple charges for the murder depending on how many laws they broke in commiting the crime.

one thing that hasnt been mentioned for a while is that lonestar is a FOR PROFIT organisation. and in here it is being compared to the normal police.
this is wrong..
Lonestar has a contract with the city, which imposes certain restrictions, such as response levels. beyond that it is profit city, their first intention is not to put you in jail, unless they have to, but hey confiscating and fines would be the order of the day . people in jail hurt the bottom line, jails are expensive. Lengthy trials are VERY expensive. Forensic teams are very expensive.
do you REALLY think they are going to send a forensic team when joe troll gets geeked? or sam the guard? any crimes that dont catch the news arent priority.

and that is ASSUMING that much can be gained from such a team; as far as I know a forensic team can ONLY determine links and whatever on ACTIVE spells and foci, maybe on currently summoned spirits and such, canon doesnt mention any instance of them ID ing a mage based on a previously cast spell... or indeed a way to do so. you cannot ascense an area and read that 6 days ago joe the mage cast a force 4 stunbolt there..

this whole thread points out how difficult it would be for the star to get charges on spellcasting to stick, this coupled with the for-profit nature of the corp would mean that unless the case is very high profile they wont even bother trying..
the only thing to remember for mages is that spells=always=premeditated so if you cast a fireball at a spirit and accidentally kill a civillian with it who happened to be in the area, it wont be manslaughter, no. You will hang for murder 1...

DS

The only problem with this is that most mages who make living as shadowrunners will hardly ever forget to Clean the signatures their magical activities leave. Granted, sometimes you don't have the time to do so (and it is more drain to worry about) but most of the time a shadowrunner will *not* leave any signature to assense.
Sometimes the magical activity leaves background as well as signature (e.g. if you kill a guard with manabolt), and you need Cleansing metamagic (ordinary Cleaning doesn't work against backgrounds, only against signatures) to erase such background, but backgrounds (generally) do not carry personal astral signatures.

There are other tricks that a forensic mage can use.

Assensing the victims emotional state.
At 5+ successes you can read what the cause of the emotional state was. Listed among examples is murder.

I understand that people will debate the ability to do this on a dead person, but it works if you look at:
SR3, p171, Assensing:
"Assensing can "read" any impressions left behind on an object."

Mix this with MitS Diagnose spell.
MitS, p141, Diagnose:
"This spell gives the subject information on the target's general health and any illnesses, injuries, or other medical problems the target might have."
From this, the mage could have a chance at determining the injuries cause.

If the mage were a psionic mage it would even be better as impressions would be stronger (though I'm having problems finding actual mechanics rules on this implications they refer to)

From the emotional state check, the mage can determine what caused it. If the person went into severe shock when hit with a mana-bolt, the mage would be able to determine that the person had an emotional spike from some form of magic.
He could try to get a clearer picture by assensing at +2 TN per additional test.

If he got enough info to figure out what type of spell was used from what the impressions of the person "remember" about the whole thing, then they can cross check that with a database to see what spells fit that discription.

Once he's gotten it narrowed down some, he can hand that info to the detectives to pursue info on the street.

If the other mundane forensist's has recovered any traces of cloathing or blood, then the mage could assense that as well to try and link that up with the information he got from the deceaced to try and find more info about the caster.

If he finds the emotional spike from the evidence that came from the caster then he can try to determine what caused that (5+ successes) spike.
If that emotional spike is linked to the crime then that is a lead.

He can also attempt to determine the general level of the casters force in relation to himself. This will give him inforation about the casters abilities.

Asral Tracking is possible if any magical items were dropped in a flee. (highly unlikely for runner though)

It would be difficult work, and long in process, but that's forensic science.
Eventually, they would at least have an idea of some form of who they were looking for.

----------
As to the Force detection lasting a number of hours equal to the force.
Personally. FanPro screwed up on that BIG time.
They mention forensic mages in that same section using astral signatures, but then state that the Force only lasts for a number of hours equal to the spells Force.

Forensics get breaks where they get to analyse a case a number of hours after the crime.
But commonly it's a day or days when they finally find the body or it is reported.
There should seriously be a better system than that.
That's WAY too easy to get away with and we can all say. "No it's not! If was longer then no mage would have a chance!", but really.
Really, really we are biased by our desire to cast spells at no consequence in the future where reality always has a dangerous consequence for such actions as murder, and if you're going to introduce a Forensic Mage into the ideas then you should supply them with the ability to analyse properly, and saying that Spell Forces only last hours is not the ability to analyse properly that forensics needs.

Under this rulling, very few people would ever be prosicuted for their casting of Force 3 or above, which is rediculous because why have permits for things that a large majority of people can get away with even if you try and nail them?
But...that's just me.

Crimes of the type shadow runners commit committed in arias where loan star (or similar security) will bother to do a real investigation (A, AA, AAA residential or fee paying commercial the later being the most common place to do a shadow run) will often be reported while in progress or shortly after completion. Those runs that don’t get noticed for hours if not days probably aren’t going to involve killing somebody.

noname_hero How do you clean magical auras without cleansing. I thaught that was what cleansing was for.

Edward

As a side note, a fetish-limited Force 6 combat spell is far more efficient than a Force 5 one. It's twice as hard to resist and the Drain code is identical.

You've also grossly miscalculated how long it takes to erase a signature. You can do it in less than three seconds if you have augmented reflexes; it only takes one Complex Action per attempt, and each attempt counters one point of Force per success on the erasing attempt. Two, maybe three, attempts is all it takes to erase a Force 6 signature in many cases, especially Sorcery signatures.

Aslo, the Astral Chameleon edge was designed specifically for this purpose... identifying an astral signature with that edge becomes significantly more difficult. That's about the only thing the edge is good for (though a lot of people have the deluded belief that it helps hide their aura), but it's a valuable asset for any magician who regularly commits illegal activites.

SR3 page 172 astral signatures last paragraph

“Erasing a signature takes a number of complex actions equal to the force of the effect”

I had been assuming 2-3 actions per combat turn. Actually I underestimated. You need 2 combat turns for each attempt if you need 2 attempts that is 4 combat turns or 12 seconds

Edward

Ack, I must have really been blurry eyed this morning when I was responding 'cause I totally misread your post or something. Sorry. You're also right about the number of Complex Actions. I guess it's the curse of using a lot of house rules... you tend to get 'em confused with the written ones.

I hate server errors....I typed up for about the past hour and I just lost it all....

So I'm sorry, but I'm not typing that all again.

First, I second everything BitBasher said.

Second.
Basically. Read Page 10 in the SR3 Roleplaying Shadowrun, and page 12-13 Shadow Activity.
These pages will tell you that a Shadowrunners typical operations are a rather bit high-profile crime.

Also, read page 314 in the SR3 for Law Enforcement and you will find that Lone Star is mostly adequate at their job, but indeed not the greatest.
That Lone Star is the CITY enforcement and not the Corporation In-House Security Law enforcement.
That the governor is considering dropping Lone Stars contract.
That Knight Errant is one of the leading security law enforcement agencies and provides elite services to several corporations.
That Knight Errant wouldn't mind replacing Lone Star's position. (which would suck so much for getting away with crime for us)

And that basically, does the normal common thug on the street have to worry about Lone Star or another enforcement agency if he uses magic in one of his crimes?
Probably not.

Does a Shadowrun team fall under the common thug umbrella rather than the high profile crime family tree and therefore not have to worry about magic being searched at the crime scene?
Most often...no.

Lone Star is a corporation, as you say, and so says the book.

Money won't be filtered from fines to the Lone Star corp. unless that has been agreed upon in a contract.
Does that mean it doesn't happen? No. It more than likely happens.
But that is stealing and embezzlement on Lone Stars part when they do that outside of a contracts agreements.
Which is probably why they are being looked at, in part, for replacement by Seattle’s governor.

Law isn't really made entirely by the governments in Shadowrun.
It's made by the corporations, as says SR3.

Now, LS will have plenty of crimes that they won't care about.

Will those crimes often be Shadow crimes?
Probably not.

Most Shadow crimes are not the kind to be overlooked as they often involve a corporation being affected in one way or another.

Also, a Corporation, if hit by some random Shadowrun team can easily draft a contract with LS to go and find them as well as using their own in-house security (probably Knight Errant) to hunt them down as well.

In Shadowrun, if you are a punk-runner, you will most likely get caught or killed down the road sometime. It may not be soon, but it is inevitable.

If you plan ahead, cover your tracks as best as you can, and try to make moves that give way to a future ownership of something better in someway (like eventually owning a shop, being a Johnson, starting a corp., gathering a militia, or whatever...) or joining up with an existing group of this caliber, then you have a much better chance of surviving long term.

My rationality?
Corporations will track you. Either through LS, KE, or other means, but they will track you. They may track you for a long time, leaving you to think that you are getting away with things. But in the end, you will be facing a very deadly enemy who is very powerful and is very well backed.

Lone Star? They are the first and least of your worries, but by no means the most incompetent.

They will not track you out of any sense of justice or need for revenge. They'll track either to make an example or to retrieve their property. Profit is the key. Is there any profit to be made or can they stem their losses by spending more cred to hunt you down? Individuals may hunt you down out of some sense of revenge but not a for-profit organisation as a whole. Meaning if you nail the corp bigwig who had a hard-on for you, the corp won't throw good cred after bad.

Lone Star won't bother you if there was no profit to be made. If the manpower used to hunt you down could be used more profitably on another case, they'd tranfer the people or drop your case. If corps could turn a profit by tracking you, fine but they'd have to justify it every quarter or every year.

Lone Star, being hired by the city, probably does have to report every quarter how many criminals they've caught to appease the city and assure them that they are worth their nuyen. (which is being debated by seattle)

So, they will hunt for a percentage of runners. Enough to make a good show of their work to keep their contract.
They will mostly lock up easy crimes to get, but they will have to go after the big fish too to satisfy the citiy.

As to Corps hunting us.
If you made a run against a Corp...chances are you hit something important.
An R&D lab, kidnapped someone worth something to them, took equipment to transfer to another corp., etc..

If that is the case, they'll look for you.
Then they'll either try and kill you or they'll try and hire you to hit another corp. and then maybe kill you.

If you saw the inside of their R&D section, they'll want you dead.
If you kidnapped someone important to you, you'll not want to give them back and possibly end up dead.
If you stole something EQ wise from them, they'll want it back at the very least and their "runners" that they hired, because their cheap really for them. Will often times not care if you are dead or alive if it's not listed in the objective.

as far as corps holding a grudge.. honestly I dont know, I think unless you start a personal vendetta against them they dont really care. they know how the game gets played, if you enter novatechs labs and steal something it will likely be because some other corp hired you for it. they are mad at this unspecified corp, not you. now spending loads of dough to kill you < as sr teams do a lot of damage before going down> .. why?? <ok maybe the azzies, but they are way past crazy> ..what then? capture you to see who hired you? that is better but unlikely to lead anywhere.. tracks tend to be very well covered in sr.. all corps know it, heck they do it themselves!
I think the only times a corp hunts you directly is when they wish to recover something you have or when you geeked the wrong person in the run and someone has a personal grudge against you. <reason 1000000 to use stun weapons>
a corp is FAR more likely to HIRE a sr team that managed to get into their best sec lab rather than killing them.

About the Star, yes they also hunt runners on sight.. however, and this is the beauty about statistics, catching john smith, unaugmented guy that killed 3 after getting drunk and stealing a predator rates for the statistics THE SAME as hunting WALLHACKER who lets say kills 3 gangers in a fight with his 32 s cyberspurs...
ie. one killer down.
See the problem with statistics? our friend wallhacker will almost not be pursued after the fact unless he does something that makes him be on the trid..

-mind you this only concerns investigations after the fact.. if you show up in a AAA neighbourhood and start shooting vips expect the worst..

DS

Corps might chase you down even if you were sent by another corp because you have seen too much. They might not like that.
Things of this nature.

As to the money issue. They have money. Runners are the ones who run short of it in comparison.
A AAA corp is not going to have to worry about spending money on getting you.
And that's also why they often use Shadowrunners.
See, I don't know how often this happens in everyones games, but in the ones I've been in, Runners often chase runners and are often hired by Corps at a relatively low cost to do so.
They are simply given the information and any supplies that are offered to do the job.
They may not know they are hired by a corp, and they may not know they are chasing a SR team all the time though...which has been nasty in results a few times.

What is the profit in revenge? Can you quantify it? Can revenge against some shaodwrunners boost your stock value? Will spending money on such "low cost" runs justify your bottomline?

In fact, Stumps, runners or Johnsons are not specifically targeted by corps(as opposed to targeted by corp personel for personal reasons) unless there is an overriding economic reason for it. Case in point: Art Dankwalther. Novatech tried to negotiate before putting out the bounty.

Money is the key. It doesn't matter how much it is, even 1 will get the bean counters at Accounting all over you. Ever been in a meeting where the bean counters question the ball point pens you ordered? or the (god, I don't believe this, this is the army for crying out loud!) bullets you indent for range practise?

The corps have money, yes. But do they want to spend it on something that isn't profitable?