I don't know that I'm optimistic yet (still too many unknowns), but I am of the opinion it had to be done.

I'm optimistic simply becasue I really enjoy most of the newer material. SR3 was a step forwards, but it didn't cut away enough old baggage and had a rushed feel to parts. However, if I pick up 4th and find it full of copy & paste texts blocks with single word changes or a single sentance in a paragraph...

Not to be cliche, but does anyone else have strains of REM running through their head at the moment?

I have mixed feelings on the subject. I really hope they address the active skill problem (way too many combat skills). And while I really would like deckers to be more integral to the runs, there is just something timless about the hacker hiding out in an old loft, putting their brain on the line (call me old fashioned).

One thing I wish they would do away with is the way knowledge skills are determined. At the onset of 3rd, they were left completely open. However, as subsquent rule books came out, definite skills were established with specific rules for these skills. In my opinion, chose one or the other (preferably the established skills), but don't leave it ambivilent.

I think when it comes to knowledge skills, they should be "non-usefull" skills that can only be used for complementary dice for other tests.


Ahem,, It feels a little wierd sitting alone in my apartment feeling like I just heard that Sweden were going to the finals in worldcup soccer, and at the same time I know that nobody for miles and miles is feeling the same thing. It really puts the finger on what it is to be a nerd, doesn´t it?


<<<edit>>> I´m having a few beers to celebrate. Drink with me, guys! *cheers*

It's been a long time since I last posted...

I logged on today to try and get some random generators for my new laptop so that I didn't have to carry as many books with me to school...boy did I get a surprise

I'm in agreement with a lot of the older, non-freelance writer gamers in that this new edition doesn't sound very promising and why fix what ain't broke.

Personally, my group and I have no problems with the 3rd edition rules. It usually takes a new player about 6 to 10 hours to get the basic rules down pat, another 4 to figure out a mage, 2 for a rigger, and 10 for a decker. That's because I use the rules as WRITTEN. It is only when you start changing everything and making house rules that it starts to get hard to learn things.

As for 4th edition it is the story that worries me...crash of the old Matrix? WTF? Deus must have had some fun...what about the megacorps? no way they all survived...plus I liked the fact that real world history stopped in about 1989...it frees me as the GM from getting bogged down in real world facts.

I am definitely optomistc and glad for the change. The rules bloat is what has been keeping my group from playing for 3 years, and it just kept getting bloatier.

NSRCG and all the folk who put their time and efforts into the .dat files are my personal heros.

Yeah, I'm old and typically cynical, but I'm optimistic on how the change will work out, or at least interested in seeing the new edition before deciding on whether or not I like it it.

<Random Inspiration>
So ah...hey, you don't need that BABY anymore, right? I could take it off your hands... give you some money towards the new book even, great deal right? What can I say, I like to help out...
</Random Inspiration>

Was a general joke to to the populace at large ;7

April first is just around the corner. It's a joke.

Its official. Trust us. No, really *best Mr. J smile*

1) Can we please remove "if you don't like it don't buy it" from our lexicon of useful responses to criticism. Everyone is clear that you don't have to buy it if you don't like it. Many of them don't and won't. But this seems to be a web site devoted to speculation and criticism, and if that makes you feel so uncomfortable you feel the need to respond with irrelevant truisms then you're worryingly close to fanboy in my book. Just stop saying it, it's boring.

2) There is a distinction between accepting that something is a sensible result of an sound business model, and that the people involved are no way bad human beings, and even that something might be good for the game as a whole in the long run, and being personally displeased about it. These complaints are selfish, in a sense, but they're not unreasonable and they do not necessarily display an ignorance of economics or history. Gaming companies need new editions and an excuse to spruik duplicate sourcebooks, I get that, but it doesn't mean I have to like it ("well don't buy it then.""shut up!")

3) I'm a first ed veteran who only ever made the shift to 2nd ed in a gradual and forced fashion. As such I have quite a different perspective than those people whose main memory of a revision was 3rd ed, with it's fairly major consolidation and some significant changes. 2nd ed was, in many ways, a reprint of first ed with just enough minor changes to render key notations incompatible between editions - seriously, aside from some very minor changes to how armour worked, there was nothing in 2nd that really manadated a changover, except for the fact that your old 1st ed damage codes ceased to make sense. You could get by, and we did, but the whole process, particularly the more or less duplicate sourcebooks (Grimoire, Street Sam) screamed "cash grab" and were really disheartening for fringe players who'd invested in their first every rpg sourcebooks only to see them outdated.

4) I'm not really hearing "it will be great to streamline all the rules for magic and put them in one book. Well.... two books including street magic. And one for guns. And one for cyberware. How convenient!!" Am I? Maybe I feel like time has passed quickly because I haven't been all that active in Shadowrun, but it's just not that long ago since I was told exactly the same thing about why I should replace my Grimoires (1st and 2nd) and awakenings with MITS. It's a modular system, as the fanboys on the street magic thread suggest you can't fit everything in one book, so why the hell not update it in a modular fashion and not force a 3rd round of duplication on everyone concerned. As a business model it's great, but I find it hard to see why we, as existing users, are supposed to be pleased and excited. You can update a major chunk of the rules in its own sourcebook, to the point of changing fundamental mechanisms (VR2.0, companion on chargen) - and even if you couldn't, we already know that the "streamlined and compiled" rules set of SR4 is going to require its own versions of each of those books, which will in turn be the "rules creep" used to justify SR5.

5) The matrix stuff, as quoted, screams Cybergeneration. Which was pretty awful.

The writers sound like smart people, and will probably both produce a good game and be offended by this post. But frankly you have to do more than say "some of the changes will be good" and "its a business model" to convince people to go with you, not least because those arguments are more than a little contradictory.

Switching from 1st ed to 2nd doesn't make you special. Most of us did the same thing. Your viewpoint is not unique for that reason. And it has been a fairly long time since you "had" to replace your sourcebooks. This new edition's a lot longer in the making than previous ones have been, to make no mention of edition changes in some other games.

And, again, I don't understand the complaints about the core book containing the core rules, and specialized books containing the specialized rules that not every game will need. No one's putting a gun to your head saying your Shadowrun game needs to have advanced magic rules, or cyberzombies, or detailed and extensive rigger combat. Not everyone NEEDS those books, and that level of detail, so not everyone has to PAY for those books.

If you want to be a super ninja L33T hardcore SR fan, sure, you buy every book (but you've been doing that for decades, so what's the big deal?). If you make no such claims, and you're a whiney, starving, college student type that just wants to play some Shadowrun? Buy the basic book, steal some d6's from your parent's Yatzhee box next time you go home for mom to do your laundry, and spend your student loan on ramen noodles instead of games...or, alternately, get a fucking job so maybe you can sit at the grown-ups table next Thanksgiving. $15 isn't that big a deal. Get over it.

You're tired of hearing "you don't have to buy it." That's fine. I'm tired of hearing "Boo hoo, I don't have money! I have to buy a $40 core book! And somewhere down the line, depending on my gaming group and the amount of karma I give out and the power level of the game and the tech level I choose to use and the level of detail we decide to play with, I might maybe have to buy some $15 books, too! My life would be so much easier and I'd have so much less to angst about if only I could buy a comprehensive, all-encompasing, $150 dollar core rulebook instead, and this game company didn't release any new material for seven years!"

It's also amusing how we aren't allowed to reply with the basic and honest "no one's making you buy it" response to people's knee-jerk whining, but you're allowed to call anyone who disagrees with you a "fanboy."

Good answer Critias. My possition is this: I like buying and reading Shadowrun books. I will buy all the books that are released this year. If there were no new edition coming out I would still buy all the books that were released. My old books will, just as my first and second edition books, still be usefull because they shine a light on the now vast history of the sixth world. That a new edition comes out is a wonderfull thing. You have to be able to see that there´s a connection between the buisness side of this and what is good for you as a fan (o I forgot, your no fan, sorry). I´m constantly worried that Shadowrun will fade out and die. Haven´t you noticed how that keeps happening to every game out there that isn´t owned by either White Wolf or Wizards of the Coast? This is a good thing because now I know there will be a continous supply of new material for my favourite game for years. If I don´t like the rules I´m sure I can still use the source books. You have noticed that they don´t even mention the rules int the source books eccept on the few last pages, right? So if it was only that. If I really didn´t think a new edition was called for and I new I would want to stick with 3:rd ed no matter what, I would still think a new edition was a good thing, because it´s a sign of health.

Throwing in my 2 (since everyone else and their mom has)

As was said before, 5 books, likely to equal $150.

With snacks, that's 7 trips to the movies. I'll live.

Yes, it has potential to be really nasty, but it also has the potential to be really well put together.

If were weren't buying the new books, most of us would still be buying all the new sourcebooks that come out. Most of us still have our older books.

Didn't someone already quote the conversation in VR2.0?
How 'bout the part where they're discussing the growing matrix and how it will either come to a level where something major HAS to happen to it. Either attain a new level of advancement, or just basically crap out and die. Prophetic?

Anyways, we can get a lot of great stuff out of this. All the things we bitch about every day are probably being looked at. Hopefully MOST of them (or at least some) are being fixed. If not, buy the source books, convert (it ain't that hard guys) the numbers, and play 3rd edition!

But a lot of people out there love SR because of the Metaplot to the game, not the rules (well, maybe Tutori, but that's okay too ) and this is a great chance to add a lot to it. The last major change to the game world off the top of my head was YoTC. And they did a good job with that. The transition from SR2 to SR3 was great. They made a much better system (IMO).

So just cross your fingers, put your head between your legs if you're so inclined. It's coming. At least they gave us some time to plan for it!

This is exciting to me. I'm more enthused about the game than I've been in some time. I may end up dissapointed later, but at the moment, I'm looking forward to it.

RPGs are about the cheapest hobby I have in terms of how much enjoyment I get for how much money I spend. I don'tt mind paying for new sourcebooks if the game is improved.

The thing I am wondering about is how much is "Everything you need" for the SR4

wow that sucked...that was intended to say..."How much is Everything you need to run SR4, in one book. Is that rules, maps, locations. Is it just the rules, how much"fluff" is it gonna have...

Either way, as long as the book is better organized than SR3 everything should be fine....

lord_cack: If I might make one suggestion... Edit your posts instead of double posting.

It's certainly a lot more valid than that particular nonresponse piece of bullshit.

~J

Yeah, it doesn't add anything productive to the discussion.

I'll correct myself: there is exactly one case in which it is appropriate, and that is a "FanPro's trying to milk money out of us" complaint. Its use for anything else should result in the immediate amputation of one finger per offense.

~J

Sometimes stupid questions and comments must be treated as such.

The fact that you would lump mine in does not dissuade me to hold my own opinion that his is nothing short of ridiculous combined with the fact that I already demolished his argument when Eldritch gave it two days ago and I am sick to death of repeating myself on DS because other users don't read.

I'm actually very surprised that someone was allowed to swear in a response directed at those of us who are pessimistic about the new edition without it being edited or bleeped.

Tell me...how does swearing during your argument make your point seem more valid or keep the conversation from escalating into a shouting match?

Yes...in my post I perhaps did misspeak when I said the "older gamers" and implying that they are like me. I'll rephrase that to the hardliner SR3 traditionalists.

Did anyone else here play Earthdawn? Did anyone continue playing it when Living Room Games took over? Was anyone else as disgusted as I was with what they were doing with the story and as a result decided to stop collecting Earthdawn books? Their rules in ED 2 were quite good--an improvement over classic--but their storyline and artwork licked a dirty part of a donkey's anatomy in my opinion.

I still collect SR and would buy any sourcebooks they put out this year if they didn't make SR4. But the thing is that I collect SR because of the STORYLINE and GAME WORLD--same as I did for ED. There is next to no storyline in M&M, MitS, Rigger 3, Matrix 3, Cannon Companion or the Companion. After all that was finally published they started producing stuff that described the game world and advanced the storyline.

With SR4 it sounds like they are going to make MASSIVE changes to the storyline and such large changes always have the potential to go wrong. On top of that, we will likely again have to sit through 6 more books that are just "Rules Bloat" (which many people are complaining about in SR3) until we start getting books again that are like Brainscan, Shadows of North America, the lifestyle sections of the SOTA books, or Street Survival Guide or whatever it was called.

Shadowrun is by no stretch of the imagination, or spin doctoring by those who work for it, a major RPG. Personally I don't think it's that good of an idea for a game that occupies only 1-5% of the market share for paper and pencil RPGs (placing it behind companies like Wizards, White Wolf, and Palladium) to try and convince their already small customer base to buy into a new edition--especially if that edition is making significant changes to the way the game is played and the game world. I'm guessing, from some people's arguments, that most of us on this board buy most if not all of the books that come out. One book is just as profitable as the next if you get the same amount of sales so why not just continue making new sourcebooks/toybooks. Palladium has never had an "edition change" and they occupy a better position in terms of market share. They do it off of toybooks and sourcebooks. Wizards makes a killing off of their sourcebooks and licensing--not off of sales of new editions otherwise why would they give away all their rules for free? Saying that making new editions is the best business plan for a role-playing game company is a fallacy--it is not true in all cases. And I don't think it will be true in this case. Two of the companies ahead of SR don't do this and they have massive market share.

I'm probably old school because I got into SR because I read Gibson, listened to punk, and loved business and economics. The explanation of what a Neo-Anarchist is and what they believe in that was published at the start of some of the old books and the old corp books that explained about how finance and the stock markets work was incredible. I guess I'm just being cranky that the reasons I liked the game are about to be changed to make the game more like "The Matrix."

Go ahead and flame me on whatever parts of my above statements you don't agree with or the holes in my arguments but at least try to keep it civil and try not to swear. I stopped posting to this board for a long time because it was getting childish and hostile--it has gotten a lot better but let's not let it regress.

Amen Cheops.

That's pretty much my positon on the subject. There does not need to be SR4. It can very easily be cleaned up. Rifts does just that. Errata and such are incorporated into the next print.

I've got one rifts core rule book - 1st printing, and it's been around for over 15 years. And I can still play in current games with that book.


The rest of the RPG industry has estabilehd it as An "Industry Standard" That a new edition of the book must be published every 6 years or so. And it just isn't so.

Look. Responding to an offended person with further hostilities is not a good thing.

<<<edit>>> Cheops: Your in your full right to be worried. It´s not like I´m not worried myself. The first thing I heard about the new edition I nearly got a heart attack. And your right in your assessment that Shadowrun might have a good chance to survive without a new edition thanks to their loyal fans.

It´s my opinion however, that they have so many loyal fans because good is not enough for them. They are taking a risk. And they do it because there´s room for improvement. Not taking that risk would be yellow. I just cross my fingers that it will turn out well.

i maintain that SR3 can't be cleaned up. how do you clean up the Matrix rules to make them more broadly appealing? how do you clean up the rigger rules to make them not break players' brains when they try to use them?

someone with a small share of the market has two choices: they can sit in the corner and hold what they've got, hoping that the big boys don't do something to draw away even more of their share. or, they can update and expand themselves to make their product more appealing to a wider audience, thus pulling in a larger market share.

Excuse me?????

Where did I say that I don't play SR or ED--I merely mentioned that I collect them, which means I buy the books whether I use them in my game or not.

I have been running steady SR campaigns once a week for the past 7 years and I have also played in some. In that period I have not gone longer than 4 weeks without playing the game. The campaign where I ran Brainscan lasted almost 2 whole years with the same core of players and characters. I have not run Earthdawn as much nor have I played it as much since it is harder to get a group together for that but I have had 2 campaigns that have lasted longer than 1 year.

If I didn't play and merely bought the books to satisfy some sort of psychological need then I wouldn't be on this board debating with people like you about whether a 4th edition is necessary or not. Don't jump to conclusions based on semantics--it won't serve you well in an intellectual debate.

And further hostilities will not be tolerated. I don't care whether you like or hate the idea of SR4 -- what I do care about are reasonable discussions. No flames.

Just a question, as a fan of all those companies you mentioned, if not currently able to play all their games. where did you get that ShadowRun was Behind any Palladium game? Last 2 cons I went to had no space for anything remotely Palladium, where there was an ED booth at least (even if it was only to give away the CD's with ED1 rulesets on them and tout ED 2).

There were no RIFTS games scheduled, nothing.
There were SR games.

I don't see SR being behind RIFTS, not at all.

mfb makes a good point--the small company has to do something to protect and expand its market share. My experiences with the gaming community in Vancouver is as follows: whenever someone new is interested in playing the first thing my experienced games and myself say is "it's like the Matrix but with magic." We already plug it as the Matrix but it still doesn't attract that many people compared to other games. It could just be people's tastes up here.

Back to your point, you are right...if SR wants more market share it has to do something to attract more players. But in so doing you are always going to loose a number of former players who are upset with the change. The question is will the changes attract more new players than it looses.

Nikoli, it's not that hard to get a booth at a convention. I could start a company and buy space at a booth and by your definition I would be more successful than Palladium even if I haven't sold a single book by the start of the convention.

I got my information from a RPG news website back in December--I can't remember the particular one...I'd have to go through my email archive to find out. But it was a case study for 2003 on how well the RPG industry was doing. My friends and I were digging up such information for a business plan we were trying to put together. Since most RPG companies are privately owned (even if they are a corporation they only have to publish information if they are publicly traded) the author couldn't get actual "inside" information from the companies so he had to base the study on market share. Overall the market was DECLINING but 2 companies--Wizards and Palladium--acutally increased their market share (capturing more of the smaller "pie") while Shadowrun lost market share. And as much as I hate to say this...Rifts actually fills a very similar market niche as Shadowrun.

But getting back to your point...just because a company doesn't advertise as much doesn't mean it is smaller than another company that advertises more.

That's the thing, I love playing all these games (I've sort of sworn off WoD, for personal reasons against the owners) but when I have the opportunity I play them all. most gamers I know buy books for several systems. With a few rare exceptions, they don't adhere to a single system. you can't compare the RPG industry and market shares like you can with cars, computers, consoles and most ofhter industries. it is an anomaly

indeed. even more than it needs any rules fixed, SR needs to be organized. not reorganized; that would imply that, at some point, it had organization.

and if you're going to go to all the work of organizing the rules--which basically means rewriting every book from scratch--why not go ahead and fix the problem rules? things like damage codes, weights, called shots, invisibility--all the stuff that causes problems in the current edition.

wow, that's a great idea. instead of printing a new edition, let's just print a series of books that fixes all the broken rules, and organizes them for easier reference.

Hey, I'd buy that! Will it have a different cover than the SR4 book?