One of my players has replaced all his limbs with cyber versions along with his skull, and torso... To my knowledge all that remains is just a brain in a can along with his stomach... (Think Victor Can Carne with a robot)

I know that realistically bullets would have a hard time "killing him"... does anyone know how I should handle damage for this cyborg or what page this information would be on?

He still retains all his inner organs. Neither the cyberskull nor the cybertorso replace them. They are mere casings to protect them. Their added resilience is symbolized by the added physical damage threshold (+6 in this case). If the cyberlimbs are armored, that adds additional resilience as well.

Your player still has a brain and all his other organs to fail, get damaged, poisoned, smashed, stabbed, cooked...

If he wanted to be a brain in a jar, he'd have to use the cyborg rules from augmentation, which are simply unavailable during character creation and next to impossible to get during gameplay unless you, the GM specifically allows it. And then he'd just be a jarhead in a drone.

To answer your question about rules and where to find them:







Rules on Cyborgs: p.158-164 Augmentation

Sidebar listing the comparison between fully cyberlimb replacement and Cybrogs (Brain in a Jar): p.159 Augmentation

Bullets can still put enough holes in the tinman to effectivly stop him although blood loss and shock are much less likely, granted a called shot to the head could ruin his day pretty quickly.


I think Augmentation has optional rules for cyberlimb damage which might be worth a look. I would quote page but Im' AFB at the moment

The implants already cover this for you. He gets an extra box on his Physical Condition Monitor for every cyberlimb he possesses, including the torso and head, for a total of +6 boxes. Each limb can also have armor on it, significantly boosting his survivability. No extra rules are really needed, and both of those features are listed in the base description of cyberlimbs in the main rulebook.

Keep in mind that this is one of those builds that can get drastically out of hand, particularly with the armor. Assuming this is post-creation, he could potentially have up to 54 points of armor and max out his physical attributes up to his racial maximum (meaning Body 10 if he's a troll) by buying customized limbs. This armor doesn't take up any encumbrance and stacks fully with worn armor, and assuming he's a troll for this worst-case scenario, that means he can wear up to 20/20 encumbrance points of extra armor on top of that. And that's not considering any of the really out-there options.

So while it's unlikely he'll go that route (especially since, for me at least, the whole point of cyberlimbs is their capacity to hold cool toys), it's something to be wary of. It can easily unbalance a game.

I like how SR allows (hell, encourages) people to build Robocop.

And yet it lags behind the full-body prosthetics so perfectly illustrated in Ghost in the Shell.

The Cyborg option is better than anything we've ever had before, but it's not quite there yet.

Probably just a matter of time and technology.

That's what I said in SR3. When SR4 rolled in with it's wireless connections and cyborgs I could see the writing was on the wall.

If he didn't upgrade software in his cyber and keeps it online, some enemy hacker will be veeery happy...

The RAW actually handle this character pretty well up until the point where they start to add armor to all those limbs. It's kind of funny that a cyborg actually has to live with less armor. When they should really be (as vehicles with only one squishy organ) much harder to take down.

Full-body conversions (as I call the "4 limbs, torso and head, eyes and ears" jobs) are devastating if you start pushing physical stats and doing things like long-jumping across the street, chasing cars on the freeway, or throwing mailboxes at gangers who are chasing you. They're also kind of expensive to get shot up (bullets hurt meatbods more, but those heal ). I'd leave the system as-is... the wound penalties, etc can reflect the damage being inflicted on the structure of his body, and "healing time" could simply reflect fiddling with settings and using repair kits, rather than sleeping off a blow to the head like the rest of us.

I would suggest the following:

All resistance tests against poisons and toxins should be made with Resistance Dicepool-Cyberlimbs. The reason for this is because a toxin dose is usually measured for a regular body - which means that a character who has removed 80% of their physical meat with metal have a higher risk of overdosing.

You could also apply this to alcohol and other milder poisons and toxins. High chans of getting drunk from one tiny glass of scotch.

Physical damage should be played as usual - but instead of healing tests, take half of the damage suffered and give him an estimated repair cost instead - say 100Y per box of damage suffered per cyberlimb.

A character with 8 boxes of damage and of those are "limb" damage would then cost 2K to repair.

Ow. That's a nasty (and effective) way of dealing with the issue. I know a few people who would just love that option (GMs). "Sorry, omae. You just don't have enough nuyen to fix yourself and your Doc Wagon contract doesn't quite cover everything. You're just going to have to lay here in the streets for a while and hope no scavengers come along..."

Thats quite a slick way of doing it I like that alot.

Could be nasty if the Sam gets really battered on a couple of occasions but really is his cyber arm any less worth repairing then the Riggers drone

Though you might want to max the "implant" damage at the number of extra boxes the character gets.

That reeks of punishing a player simply for going with cyberlimbs as opposed to some of the much better, more effective implants. Unless you want to start charging any character with implants outlandish repair bills (and coming up with a similar mechanic to punish those without any at all), it's really not a fair rule at all.

True punishing people might be going to far, abit of extra grittiness might go down well in some groups though

Not ALL toxins would have a magnified effect. First, injection vector toxins would be made of fail; unless you hit a fleshy bit, there's no bloodstream to inject into. Similar for airborn contact vector gasses / mists. Inhaled vector toxins wouldn't have an increased effect because with reduced biological mass, you get reduced metabolic needs and hence reduced breathing. Somebody with full limb replacement can probably get by with just half a lung. Injected toxins would be the bugaboo, but then again, assuming the character has a full sized liver still, its not working nearly as hard as it normally would, so it might balance out somewhat.

Look at it this way- are amputees more susceptible to toxins?

In terms of damage, if you are going to start requiring repairs for (some) boxes of physical damage, then track those boxes separately. They shouldn't contribute to the player passing out / dying, because having you cyber-limb shot off won't result in you bleeding to death.

if you want to damage cyberlimbs, you would need to bring back the stress rules from SR3. which means bringing back integrity enhancements and the protection values of the cyberskull and cybertorso. Its a lot of extra bookkeeping that you dont really need.

this guy sounds low essence already, does he even have room for the bioware to get extra IP? with alphaware hes already spent 5 essence of cyber just on the 6 limbs. never mind the additional essence cost of senseware and datajacks. a proper tinman really needs to have betaware in order to get enough toys to do it well (and we all know robocop was a delta-grade prototype)

a complete Alpha Suite for a Char with Biocompatibility to Cyberware = 40% off the Essence Cost
My Char "Cyb Ork" started like this ( & Synaptic Booster 1) and was left with 0,48 Essence (& Callous Disadvantage) IIRC
And 54 Points Armor ...Thats not realistic (possible maybe,but not realistic) ImO

HokaHey
Medicineman

Sorry, forgot half of my own house rules.

Yes, to hit a fleshy bit would require a called shot with a modifier equal to Dicepool -Limbs to hit.

Attack Pool 10 VS 6 cyberlimbs equal pool of 4

The reductions for cyber grades etc are multiplicative, not additive. An Alpha Suite costs 80% * 90% the normal cost, or 72%. Biocompatibility would reduce that to (72% * 90%) or 64.8%. Rather than 40% off, you get 35.2% off.

That's still enough to bring a full body replacement down to 4.05 essence, though. That leaves room for a good load of bioware, given its gonna cost half essence.

Thats not quite Right
Discounts add together,they aren't multiplied
20% Off (Alpha) and 10% (suit) and 10% (Biocomp.) are a total of 40% Discount
It's in the German Bodytech on Page 50 "Rules for Cyberware Suites"
Unfortunately its not in Augmentations(German Books are usually Errattaed)

HokaHey
Medicineman

That heavily depends on what rules you use. According to augmentation, they are multiplied, not added:


The essence cost modifier is labeled as:


Even the given excemple supports this:


I am not aware of an errata. If you have an official errata, please provide me with the link. Thanks in advance.

Now take cyberguy and get him a smartlinked Ruger Thunderbolt with custom look, extended clip, gas vent 2, advanced saftey, skinlink, and personalized grip.

Partially correct. The German rules for cyber suites state that the essence cost reduction (and only that, the reduction is multiplied again) is additive, in other words you get 10% off the base essence cost. However everything else still is called "multiplier" or at least doesn't tell me to use bad math...and for consistency I even ignore that little tidbit and just handle cyber suites as just another 0.9 multiplier


@D2F: An official errata does exist somewhere. Several authors have stated that they have it and the folks who did the German translation (released in January 2009) obviously had it, but for some reason CGL does not consider it neccessary to give it to the general public. Or as AH put it:



Maybe Frank should ask his sources, I'm sure there would be significantly less discussion about the legality of finally making the errata public...or they could just put the bloody thing on the official site and be done with it.

The essence values given for vararious grades of cyberware suites on the charts (eg, p 48 Augmentation) clearly do use a multiplicative method; the Alphaware versions cost 80% the essence the base version does, and the beta version cost 70% the essence of the base suite. If the modifiers were additive, the alpha version would cost 77.777% as much essence, not 80% as much.
Did they alter the costs in the essence costs in the German version to be inline with this "unreleased FAQ"? If not, either the text or the tables is wrong. If the text contradicts multiple examples and tables in the book, I'd say the "additive errata" its based on was an after-the-fact change made to "simplify the math", without much consideration of the consequences (such as needing to change the tables and examples, for one!)

Anyhow, I'll stick with multiplication. Otherwise you potentially get deltaware suites in people who are biocompatible and have Adapsin treatment at a mere 30% of the normal essence cost. At worst, I'll eventually find out my characters have more essence than I though.

And that is a bad thing exactly why? They are paying multiple MILLIONS for the privelege of having that very low cost...

Lets see... Biocompatability (-10%), Adapsin (-10%), Suite Adjustment (-10%) and Delta Grade (-50%)... so a 20% cost works well... why complain, if you let them get to that level in the first place... I modified a Full Borg Replacement system found here on Dumpshock and the costs were fairly outrageous... Full Body Replacement Borg with Implants to boot... The Synthetic Version has an Essence cost of 5.855 and a low, low cost of 7.9 Million Nuyen... The Obvious System was even more expensive in the end, though it was far more robust due to the extra capacity in the Obvious Limbs......

Is the difference between .3645 and .2 (a Difference of .165) so great that it becomes an issue? At the prices that are being charged for such work to be done, I do not think so... just go with the 20% Cost and be done with it... by the time you are playing at that level, it really should not matter all that much

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

As long as we don't have an official errata, however, the rules still state they multiply. I don't consider translations an errata. The mere fact that the german translation in SR2 called a concealment holster a "concealment headcollar" leads me to assume that a translation may as well just be wrong or reflect the vision of the translator as to how rules should be instead of how they are.

In SR2 !
that was a long Time ago under a different Company ,but I think thats different now
you once had a President George W.Bush but I also think its different now ,Ok ?
Well if the translations got the OK from CGL developer than they're at least as valid as the Original
(and it's not our fault that CGL won't publish these erratta !)

Hough !
Medicineman

Medicinemen, calm down deep breaths-yeah Bush was more brain dead that a troll after a weeklong bender on BTL's but you got to admit that translation is pretty funny-and would explain the problem Germans have concealing weapons.

Yeah the 4th ed hacking is clearly GitS but I think that is a good thing but the full body cyborgs in SR are still a disapointment in that regard.

As for the rest I'm sorry but I see the term "cyberman" and all I can think of is that I feel I should stock up large quantities of gold.

I am glad that I'm not the only Whovian around here. I especially loved Ace and her slingshot with doubloons in Silver Nemesis.

I'll do worse than that, I was mentally thinking of how to make one of the non-leathal weapons into a "glitter gun"

I must now relinquish my position as Master Nerd to you. Use it well.

Yep, they did, for example the alpha version of the LS SWAT suite costs 1.96 essence instead of 2.02. However the example for used cyberware still uses the same numbers as in the original printing and the rules for Biocompatibility, Adapsin and other Essence reducers still state "reduces essence costs by X%". If a shop gives me 20% off everything except Ghoul food that means the I pay 20% less than normal, not that the price gets reduced by 20% of the net price.

We are just one and I wasn't Angry or anything at all
I just thougt that its not right to judge Pegasus the German translator for mistakes that where made decades ago.
The former translations in German where kinda bad and Fanpro Germany kept adding imbalanced weapons and items (H&K Urban Series) so people in the German Forums are still ...weary/leery (?) (Expecting bad Translations) so the Guys from Pegasus keep on reassuring the SR Fans that they don't ... go Maverick (?)
(I hope you get my meaning )
Funny Translations: a D&D Torch was once translated to Flashlight in German (but that was in the mid-80's I think)

with a calm & relaxed Dance
Medicineman

The original 4th Ed book still had "Schockrüschen"...but at least no armoured tutu

Better than Schokorüschen

No, actually not.

I completely understand where you're coming from, but understand that a simple translation does not qualify as an errata, even if it used an internal errata as a guide for its changes.
The monent, the errata is officially published, things change. Until then it's multiplication (unless you play the german version).


Actually, I'd rather enjoy chocolate fluting on my armor. Would help me through those long stakeouts

Even if it's the big fugly Troll wearing them? O.o

Favourite Problem with Translations in SR3:
Dikote.
In english, it's applicable to all bladed Weapons while appropriate skills are pole-arms, edged weapons and so on.
In German, there's a Skill called "Klingen". And In the Translation, Dikote is only appicable to "Klingen".
So there was much diskussion wether or not you could coat weapons with Dikote that did not use the skill "Klingen"

Hmmm...armour does not degrade, right? Sounds like a good way to reduce lifestyle costs

The seconday health insurance costs from your chocolate diet might even that out, though

I hear moose bites kan be pretti nasti.

(Yeah yeah, Swedish, not Deutsch, but my joke stands!)

While it is true that these are essence cost "multipliers" in the sense that they reduce the essence cost through multiplication, it would seem to me for the sense of bookkeeping and easier game play that they were meant to be additive.

I am NOT busting out a calculator to figure out what new essence cost is because my multiplier wasn't a nice round number to work with.

A moose bit my sister once.

As bad as the original German was it was still better, and official, than the original french SB that was not official but just reeked of gallic arrogance.

I once DM'd D&D 3.5 with some Italians only to learn that "torch" is slang for joint. One non-Italian player kept insisting that they find somewhere to buy torches provoking unexpected giggles from the slightly stoned Italians to his increasing exasperation. "Look, we will need torches and food." "We do not have enough torches to last the night". More laughter. I had to clue him in, in the end.



Yeah, that was those Italians, too.

K.

You haven't seen weird translations until you've seen German MtG cards

Austin Powers first movie:
In english Question:"Sex?"(meant in gender) Answer:"Yes Please!"(merant in fucking obviously)
In german: Question:"Gender?" Answer:"Yes please"
I rest my case.

Ahh but thats not a fair comparison, a play on words is very hard to translate correctly. OTOH in German you could do this trick, and be unable to translate it to English ^^.

"Billy Corgan, smashing pumpkins".
"Homer Simpsons, always politely".

No chance to translate that joke into german....