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boskop-albatros
Cool so even Shadowrun Psionic Mutants Adepts can be done
Cold-Dragon
QUOTE (emo samurai)
What if I upgrade him to, like, ubermensch or something that has all those flaws and advantages? And I've read about spirits that have more than the usual amount of flaws and advantages, so I'm not just pulling this out of my ass.

well, pluck one out for example then. Or I guess I will since it came up.

Dark King
Pro: 3 things with bonus
con: more vulnerable to real damage.

The reason this one has a little extra is because it's a liability - you are making you're more likely to die in any situation that involves a resistance roll on real damage. that would include casting as well as being shot at, IMO. It's the severity of the con (albeit only one die) that makes the leeway for an extra bonus

This is actually the only mentor spirit with more than 2 benefits: all others in the SR4 book (as such, I'm not including other sources, since they're not SR4 and I've never seen them anyways) have two and maybe a split where you can choose one of two bonuses. But the net result is always two benefits (with the noted exception of Dark King).
emo samurai
Bah, I want an ubermensch!!! And I'm sure those super-awesome totems will come up in Street Magic.
Churl Beck
QUOTE (emo samurai)
Also, the detection spells were there to reflect that he's good at detecting logical fallacies and conundrums.  This would keep him from being the Sophist or Propagandist.

Well I like the idea of a Sophist Mentor, as I think it's better to model Mentor Spirits after different schools of philosophy.

Here are some more ideas along the same lines. These are all off the top of my head and in need of modification.

Confucius = traditionalism (+2 to etiquette), kindness (+2 to health spells)
Dao = wu wei (+2 to leadership, +2 to ritual spellcasting)
Plato = anamnesis (+2 to memory tests)
Aristotle = golden mean (equal emphasis in all spell categories (so no spell bonuses)), teacher ((Logic + Intuition) * 5 knowledge skills at character creation, +2 to instruction)
Descartes = dualist (+1 to mana spells, -1 to physical spells), radical doubt (+2 to resist illusion spells)
Hume = empiricist (+2 to detection spells), skeptic (+2 dice to banishing)
Kant = transcendental idealist (reduced cost to Initiate)
Nietzsche = philologist (+1 to ancient language skills), will to power (+2 manipulation spells), nihilist
Churl Beck
QUOTE (emo samurai)
Bah, I want an ubermensch!!! And I'm sure those super-awesome totems will come up in Street Magic.

Unless you plan to make it cost more BP, I don't see any reason why any one Mentor Spirit should be inherently more powerful than another. The elves do have the "Path of Kings" totem from MitS (+4 to all spells and no disadvantages), however it is for that very reason limited only to NPCs.
Glyph
QUOTE (Synner)
QUOTE (TinkerGnome @ Feb 12 2006, 11:36 PM)
QUOTE (SL James @ Feb 12 2006, 05:29 PM)
What the hell are you talking about? MitS and Old World Magic in SOTA:2064 makes it pretty clear that the number of Hermetics who follow a "a coldly logical, rather than intuitive, approach to magic" are in the minority.

Based on this, I took the time to go through MitS and SOTA: 2064 (which I hadn't really read before). MitS doesn't provide anything to support your assertation, instead refering to hermeticism as "the science of magic". SOTA:2064 does lend some support, but it's very specific to Europe.

Sorry guys, but SL James is correct. Hermeticism in the Sixth World evolved directly from the ancient magical tradition. The material in SOTA64 does cover the Hermetic schools in Europe, but it provides a description of how the paradigms came to be and states that "Renewed Hermeticism" (the most scientific of the hermetic paradigms and the dominant paradigm worldwide back in 64) evolved from applying scientific principles to the art of magic. To put it simply there are rules to magic, they're just not purely scientific rules, but also esoteric rules - making it a science in the classical sense not in the sense that it is done in bland laboratories and sapped of all its intrinsic spirituality. The fact that the approach is scientific doesn't mean the methodology or the cosmology is.

Well, I never got SOTA64, so I was going by the main book and MITS. My point was that SR took a pretty simplified look at both shamanism and hermeticism, because they wanted two distinct magical traditions that the average reader could grasp. So you had logical, scientific-minded hermetics and intuitive, nature-loving shamans.

And if you look at page 170 of SR4, you will see that they are still doing that.
Vaevictis
The difference between hermetics and shamans, to my mind, is just a differing view on the nature of magic. Hermetics manipulate magic; shamans invoke it. To hermetics, magic is a separate entity, an outside force. To shamans, it is the blood of reality; magic is a part of everything, and everything is a part of magic.

For shamans, mentor spirits obviously tend to be primordial archetypes. Wolf, Coyote, Raven, Shark, Sun, Moon, Dark King, etc. They are all forces of nature, the very stuff of creation.

For hermetics, I'd be more inclined to "name" the mentor spirits; instead of them being forces of nature, they are entities that guide mages. Michael, Gabriel, Azrael. Asmodeus, Beelzebub, Belial. Pick a mythology, and select a named servant a god, that would make a good hermetic patron, imo. (Personally, I think that it would be... incorrect to let most PCs {or even most NPCs} select a god as a mentor spirit. That is the realm of prophets, and true prophets should be *rare*)
September
How about;

Machiavelli

Advantages: +2 dice for Binding, +2 dice for manipulation spells
Disadvantages: -1 die for Health spells. Magicians of Machiavelli must make a Willpower+Charisma (3) test to openly act against those in power.
stevebugge
QUOTE (Vaevictis)
The difference between hermetics and shamans, to my mind, is just a differing view on the nature of magic. Hermetics manipulate magic; shamans invoke it. To hermetics, magic is a separate entity, an outside force. To shamans, it is the blood of reality; magic is a part of everything, and everything is a part of magic.

For shamans, mentor spirits obviously tend to be primordial archetypes. Wolf, Coyote, Raven, Shark, Sun, Moon, Dark King, etc. They are all forces of nature, the very stuff of creation.

For hermetics, I'd be more inclined to "name" the mentor spirits; instead of them being forces of nature, they are entities that guide mages. Michael, Gabriel, Azrael. Asmodeus, Beelzebub, Belial. Pick a mythology, and select a named servant a god, that would make a good hermetic patron, imo. (Personally, I think that it would be... incorrect to let most PCs {or even most NPCs} select a god as a mentor spirit. That is the realm of prophets, and true prophets should be *rare*)

Actually for Catholic Hermetics, various saints would make good mentor spirits. Many have fairly colorful histories and all of them are held as people to emulate as righteous.

Churl Beck
QUOTE (stevebugge)
Actually for Catholic Hermetics, various saints would make good mentor spirits.  Many have fairly colorful histories and all of them are held as people to emulate as righteous.

Ambrose, Patron Saint of Bee Keepers. +2 dice to area-effect spells.
Fiacre, Patron Saint of Taxi Drivers and Venereal Disease. +2 dice to navigation. +2 dice to Health spells.
James the Greater, Patron Saint of Laborers and Rheumatism. +2 dice to gymnastics.
Mary Magdalene, Patron Saint of Perfumers. +2 dice to olfactory perception.
Matthew, Patron Saint of Accountants and Tax Collectors. +2 dice to negotiation.
Cynic project
Well, let's step back a bit here. Why should hermetic have any less link with magic? The mentor being a form of link into magical realm..You are being talked to by something magical, after all... Oh what the hell we are talking about the world where some relions have magical power and others don't.
Azralon
I don't see a problem with hermetics using animal mentors.

I also don't see a problem with renaming any given mentor, in either tradition (or homebrew ones), to better fit a character's mystical philosophy.

For instance, I've got a hermetic cyberdoc right now who has Dark King has his mentor spirit; he views DK as the Jungian incarnation of the Grim Reaper himself. So, my guy comes off with this whole "Dr. Death" thing. I could have just as easily reconceptualized Dark King as Pluto/Hades, or as the unknowable "Void of the Afterlife," or whatever.

Or, I could have taken a different route with him and used Snake instead. He could have still been hermetic, but I could have played up the "snake oil vendor" motif or gone with the Egyptian serpentgod theme.

My point is that all shamans don't need to have animal totems and all hermetics don't need to be into idol worship. Heck, you could do the old psionicist tradition and have each psychic draw power from a subconscious template based off of animal traits. "I have conditioned my mind, using the cultural archetype of resilent Bear, to perform these wacky psionic tricks."
Deadjester
I don't see why mentor spirits for hematics could not be treated like familiars.

Supposedly wizards made pacts to gain power and knowledge and in return they got a imp, quasit or what have you and it could be done in a simular way here.

Wizard does a long summoning ritual (and pays some karma) and calls forth a spirit from the depths that matches his views and helps him out in his works.

Tweek it some, give it stats like a real spirit and it boosts him like a mentor spirit as long as it lives and if it gets killed in combat, the hematic takes some really nasty stun damage which in combat could cause some really bad issues.

That way it works like a spirt and boosts him at the same time but yet he may want to keep it back some do to what may happen if it gets killed.

If you make it like a real spirit, you might want to make them so that they only show up as force 3 (with a logic and will of 6) spirit so that they can't be kick ass and have the great effects of a mentor spirit combined. That will make it truely like a familiar and somthing to be looked after and not just used as a tweeked combat spirit.
Churl Beck
QUOTE (Azralon @ Feb 14 2006, 01:19 PM)
I don't see a problem with hermetics using animal mentors.

No problem, but it just isn't as cool IMO. Totems used to be one of the things that separated shamans from mages. Now that that is no longer the case, I prefer the idea that each tradition has its own distinct "flavor" of Mentor Spirit--just as a role-playing device.
FrankTrollman
Time Cube
Followers of nature's harmonic simultaneous four-day Time Cube (who refer to themselves as cubicists) reject the corrupt singularity brotherhood that is taught by traditional religious and so-called "scientific" teachers/dogmatists. Realizing that those who ignore the implications of cubic creation are by definition evil, cubicists are on very solid moral grounds while dealing with everyone. They know the peril of failing to recognize their rotation of 4-day life, and refuse to bow to those who would idict them with stupid-logic that would cut them off from their antipodal existence.

Benefits: +2 to Counterspelling, +2 to Banishment, +2 dice to resist any attempt to convince the character of anything - even (especially) if torture or drugs are employed.
Penalties: Cubicists find it difficult to interact with others, and suspect them of being part of the Big Brother conspiracy to eradicate knowledge of the opposites that prevent the universe from ceasing to exist. A cubicist must make a Willpower + Charisma (3) test to trust anyone, and is at a -1 Dicepool penalty to social tests when dealing with people who don't acknowledge their cubic creation of the universe.

-Frank
emo samurai
Sounds like the perfect mentor for an uncouth hermetic.
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE (Azralon)
I also don't see a problem with renaming any given mentor, in either tradition (or homebrew ones), to better fit a character's mystical philosophy.

For instance, I've got a hermetic cyberdoc right now who has Dark King has his mentor spirit; he views DK as the Jungian incarnation of the Grim Reaper himself. So, my guy comes off with this whole "Dr. Death" thing. I could have just as easily reconceptualized Dark King as Pluto/Hades, or as the unknowable "Void of the Afterlife," or whatevers.

Absolutely. The mentor spirits are archetypes and the names of them in the SR4 book are just one way they can be interpreted. As for hermetics with mentor spirits, take the Greek concept of daemons. Greek thought is a strong foundation for Hermetics.
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