What were the differences in SR3, and how do you think they should have been differentiated in SR4?

With the base mechanics, there weren't a lot of differences in how they did things - only limits to what they were allowed to do. They both could cast spells, but only shamans could have mentor spirits (Totems) with the associated bonuses and could summon nature spirits on the fly (though they couldn't bind them or take them out of their native Domains). Hermetics could only summon elementals (at great expense of time and money), but could bind them and call on them anywhere afterwards. As the editions developed, they started edging towards the unity they were given in 4th ed - with the hybrid traditions popping up and a greater variety of spirits becoming available.

Personally, I think they took the right course fully integrating the trads in SR4 - it's a logical progression, given what the Big Mojo players have said all along (i.e. the traditions are artificial constructs b/c modern metahumanity just wasn't used to magic, and those were the only ways they knew) and the increasing developments in the search for the Unified Magical Theory. Though, like the decker/rigger merge, it takes away a bit of their unique flavor, it gives players a broader range of options to cherry-pick from by not limiting them to going this way or that at the exclusion of all else.

Out of curiosity, has anyone come up with a mentor spirit for a hermetic magician?

merlin?

What defines hermeticism is a focus on the mystic and magical sides of religion. If you're a jewish kabbalist, an islamic mystic or part of the cult of Dionysos, you may be a hermetic. In fact, you're propably a bit of each, and a few others. I guess in Shadowrun, most hermetics follow the path of collage magical science. I'm betting the magical education still includes courses in the ancient mysteries though. If for no other reason than that hermetics have always been crazy about that stuff.

Should be very easy to find hermetic mentor spirits. Jesus could be one. Or Horus. One idol can be a patron of several faiths.

Now that I think...thanks. You just gave me some fun ideas.

I've never really connected hermeticism and religion at all. To me, hermetics are the scientists of the magical world. They see everything in terms of laws and rules and use those rules to manipulate magic. For instance, the SR3 summoning required the drawing of summoning circles which were complex and significant.

Theurgists have used a similar approach (and quite a few theurgists are hermetic now), true, but I wouldn't say that's the defining aspect of hermeticism.

*cough* John Dee *cough*

The topic of religion and magic has been done to death (or at least to the point of near-murder) before, BTW.

Hermetic Mentor Spirits?

The little imp on his shoulder, whispering secrets that Man Was Not Meant To Know.

I just thought I would mention that one change Shadowrun 4 made in the magic system that I really thought was a great idea was having heremetics and shamen soak drain differently from spell casting. Unlike shadowrun 3, which you had everyone soaking drain from spell casting using willpower + spell pool, now you have the heremetics soaking drain using willpower + logic, and the shamen soaking drain using willpower + charisma. To me, that really drew a distinction between how heremetics see magic and how shamen see magic; with one being much more formalized and ritualistic, and the other, more natural.

Limiting the types of spirits they could conjure (and the manner of doing so) was also a not-insignificant distinction.

September: Out of curiosity, has anyone come up with a mentor spirit for a hermetic magician?

hobgoblin: merlin?

What was that dork of a short mage type from the HeMan cartoon series? That would make a good mentor for a mage with a serious glitch problem...

Or my favorite one for those old enough to remember: Cheech Wizard

BOOT to the head!

In the case of SR4, you can now 'create' a tradition, so it can be charisma, intuition, or logic based. The trick about the spirits, however, is a subtle one.

Whatever spirit you don't choose to fit your traditionis allegedly unavailable to you for summoning. I forget where I read it, alas, but it was in the Magic section.

It also let you devise sensible systems of discovering magic. All sorts of ways you can claim you got you power, even being psychic (though the claim will be shot down a bit, since you read as magical).

But whose to say that SR psionics weren't in fact magic?

SR psionics were magic. MitS was clear on that. It was severly limited magic, as well. Had thought-forms sucked less it would have been a viable tradition.


Personaly, I find a lot of flavor has been lost by unifying spirit types. The Nature Spirit vs Elemental disinction was far more important than the binding vs spontaneous summoning distinction, the totem distinction, or the charisma vs logic distinction.


A Hermetic Mentor spirit might by the Dark King in the form of President or Archduke of Hell for a magician of the Satanist/Black Magic tradition or the Firebringer in the form of Pythagoras, Galileo, or Leonardo (The human who built working drone automobiles and anthroform robots in the 15th century, not the IE who pretends to be him).

Be careful, there. Apparently the Church of Scientology has a tendency to sue anyone who they percieve as slandering them, and even if they're in the wrong, they've got enough money to keep up the lawsuits in order to drain your bank accounts.

What I really want to know is...does anyone have Mentor Spirits for Adepts?

I have some ideas here too but nothing too inspiring.

Mentor's for hermetics might not necessarily follow the totem/idol theme of existing mentor spirits. As was already mentioned schools of magic is a possibility, not just one given campus or set of instructors, but something more like a polyclub that has very specific beliefs in how magic works or maybe how they can make it work better.

One I personally like is elemental aspected hermetics. Maybe a hermetic just has simply focused his study on one particular element, or maybe he feels in internal pull for a particular aspect of magic. Just because he believes in the science of magic, doesn't mean he can't believe in or feel a stronger connection to some spiritual aspect of magic. Or maybe he feels an almost shamanic tug away from the hermetic path, which has manifested in feeling a spiritual link to one element.

Anyways, to keep it simple, how does this sound:
Air: +2 for detection spells and air spirits, -2 for manipulation spells.
Earth: +2 for manipulation spells and earth spirits, -2 for detection spells.
Fire: +2 for combat spells and fire spirits, -2 for illusion spells.
Man: +2 for health spells and spirits of man, (need help with penalty).
Water: +2 for illusion spells and water spirits, -2 for combat spells.

Maybe instead of a penalty for spirits of man, reduce the bonus to +1, as spirits of man are still new to the hermetic tradition? But an anti-combat flaw, like the flaw for having rat as a mentor, might also be appropriate, or having an obligation to protect those weaker than himself.

Any thoughts?

BBB, p. 79 "This quality is only available to characters with either the Magician or Mystic Adept quality," referring to the Mentor Spirit quality.

All of the mentor spirits I mentioned give a bonus to something adepts can do. They just lose the benefit regarding spellcasting or summoning.

I have been working on making a Spirit of Man mentor spirit for my Mystic Adept.

First draft has been:

+1 to Athletics and Logic tests
+1 to Manipulation spells
+2 to summon Spirits of Man

-2 to any tests that involve racism.

Heh, I know this will sound odd but I got this idea from one of our space probes sent out with a greeting on it.

Had that picture of the human form and it made me think some, what makes man, man?

So I thought about what seperates us from the animals and that to be a Spirit of Man it had to repersent all types of man. Therefore no racism is allowed and all types of man must be respected as a whole and only looked down upon in a indavidual bases.

Its a first rough draft idea so I am still thinking about it and it was built for the Mystic Adept which embraces both physical and the magical aspects of it, but thought I would post it as food for thought.

Deadjester

For my Shen character, I thought that his worship of the dragon would be because of his intelligence and aloofness from what he perceives to be meaningless, not because he thinks the dragon is a god of some kind. He'll still be hermetic.

For a hermetic mentor...

Hermes (the source of the tradition name) Trismegestris
Thoth (who the greeks merged with the above into one god of intelligence/magic)
The various combinations of the two above
Various devils (faustian fun)
Nuit (Crowley's star goddess)
Whatever god the charcter worships (channeling power out of choice not being chosen by the power like a shamen)
Ophis (no not me, where I stole the name from, serpent, apples and forbidden wisdom)

EDITTED - for my own ego.

For a more twisted mage, let me present to you: Eris - Godess of Discord

For more information read Principia Discordia - How I found Godess & what I did to Her when I found Her by Malaclypse The Younger.

Learn the hidden secrets behind:

*The Law of Fives
*The Sacred Chao
*Starbuck's Pebbles
*Gospel According to Fred
*The Epistle to the Paranoids
and more


(If in doubt, ask Steve Jackson of Steve Jackson games. He clearly knows about this secret society)

Hermetics wouldn't have a problem using mentor spirits. They would simply see them differently. To a hermetic, a mentor spirit would either be a manifestation of their own subconscious, an abstract concept taking on a concrete form for them, or a powerful free spirit offering power in return for following certain ideals that it identifies with. They wouldn't actually worship them, that's all.

Actually, though, it's not so black and white. An otherwise-agnostic hermetic might indeed worship his mentor spirit, thinking that it's the closest thing to a higher power that he can see. And some shamans, not able to reconcile their mentor spirit with the religion that they were brought up in, might choose to see it more abstractly as a "spirit guide".

The one thing that the new edition gets right is to say that different cultures use different archetypes to depict the same things. So maybe that hermetic has the equivalent of the Moon Maiden totem, but just sees it as a sort of spirit of feminism, rather than an ancient Greek goddess.

One last thing. In SR, hermeticism is used to describe a coldly logical, rather than intuitive, approach to magic. Hermeticism in the SR books is nothing like "real world" hermeticism. Of course, you could also say the same thing about SR shamanism and "real world" shamanism.

What the hell are you talking about? MitS and Old World Magic in SOTA:2064 makes it pretty clear that the number of Hermetics who follow a "a coldly logical, rather than intuitive, approach to magic" are in the minority. Even Renewed Hermeticism, which is by far the largest school relies just as much on ideological or pseudo-intellectual and intuitive concepts as it does on cold, hard fact.

But this topic, too, was argued to death last summer.

[QUOTE=ThreeGee,Feb 12 2006, 10:01 AM] [QUOTE]And whatever you do, watch for the fnords. [/QUOTE]
You can tell them by their four wheels, fast speed, honking horns, and apatite for gas.







Wait, no. Those are FORDS.

redwulf25_ci: Don't forget that King Kong died for your sins

This change for magicians i thought was huge and deserved a story as well thought out as the matrix crash. And i miss all the different types of shaman spirits. And magic style specific spirits. Sure they where starting to merge but 6 spirits don't really do the richness of the world justice, (but the book does say this doesn't represent them all so we'll see what the magic book does for it)
Maybe a more indepth spirit creation type thing so that when you summon and air spirit you can remodel a storm spirit or something depending on how you put the points or something.
For the rest types and abilities of summons etc. our group uses merits and flaws.
if the shaman for instance WILL NOT bind spirits cause its wrong then its flaw and they get the points for it, and same for mages if they can't wrap there head around summoning without a cirlce and hours of chanting its a mental flaw , we use 5 point flaws but might change to 10 point if it seems to be a huge drawback in play.
For spirits we just use description of look for now, as the upcoming magic book may flesh them out more.

I don't know if we're arguing the same thing. I don't think anyone is dening the roots of many hermetic schools are in the old religions and magical practices. The point I'm trying to make is that the defining characteristic of hermeticism is the "magic has rules and works as a system" concept rather than anything from the past.

SR4 and MitS are both in agreement on this point.

I have an idea for a new mentor spirit that works for hermetics.

Too many advantages. It doesn't matter though, as it is actually impossible to acquire this totem; chargen forbids you from obtainning a maxing out two attributes, and I'm not sure it's possible by RAW to pick up a mentor spirit after chargen. That last requirement is an OOC one, and pretty stupid too; I'm not a good writer at all, yet I can toss out 1-2 pages about just about anything without a sweat.

What should I cut down on? And would a 5-page paper suffice? Plus, I couldn't find anything banning having mentor spirits after character generation. As for the minimum stats, the Dragon totem has a minimum intelligence 6 requirement. Also, the detection spells were there to reflect that he's good at detecting logical fallacies and conundrums. This would keep him from being the Sophist or Propagandist. And couldn't I just have the Mentor Spirit edge be dormant until I get my stats high enough?

Emo--

Something more along the lines of:

The Philosopher
The Philosopher is the embodiment of thought. Rational thought and study of the world around him has led him to a greater understanding of himself. A seeker of knowledge not for personal gain but the betterment of understanding. Many Philosophers question long held views and snap decisions, often planning a course of action through to its end before beginning.

+2 for detection spells, +2 for Negotiation

Disadvantages: He has to make a Logic+Intuition (3) test to rush into a plan without proper preparation and forethought.

Psionisists Should Be Allowed to use Foci&Fetishes

And like I've mentioned before-if you a a Psionistist Single Spell Adept you are basicly a Shadowrun Version of a Mutant
(That is all)

What if I upgrade him to, like, ubermensch or something that has all those flaws and advantages? And I've read about spirits that have more than the usual amount of flaws and advantages, so I'm not just pulling this out of my ass.

By my math there are 2160 possible traditions to be made under the SR4 Rules. 2 are currently named, my guess is there is room for a lot of creation.