Full Version: Knockdown?
| QUOTE (Azralon) |
| Wasn't there a MythBusters episode that dealt with knockback from handguns, not too long ago? |
We get this show even in ol' germany, and i saw that episode a short time ago, when they tested the myth of knockback a second time. It wasn't a surprise that there was virtually none, a few centimetres for even the heavy calibre rifles.
Enough to throw Buster off balance.
What I've been trying to say is that the work done by the torque (and the impulse on the target, etc.) of the .45 ACP bullet at 950fps is for most intents and purposes the same as that done by the 2lbs of candy at 15.6fps. As far as tripping people is concerned the two are equally crap.
Re: "stopping power", you might find this interesting. The rest of his site is worth a read as well. A bullet that does not penetrate through the target but gets lodged inside transfers more momentum to the body of the target, hence it will "shove" it a bit harder -- but since even the full momentum transfer is very unlikely to push someone over, this has a negligible effect on the probability of temporary incapacitation. It has even less of an effect on lethality: momentum has nothing do with killing people, and all other things being equal an exit wound promotes quicker bleeding.
Did Mythbusters also show how a human head shot with a powerful firearm will actually be pushed towards the shooter, and not away? This being because the brain and other matter ejected from exit wound along with the bullet tend to have more momentum than what is transfered from the bullet to the head, leading to an impulse to the (rest of) the head towards the shooter.
Re: "stopping power", you might find this interesting. The rest of his site is worth a read as well. A bullet that does not penetrate through the target but gets lodged inside transfers more momentum to the body of the target, hence it will "shove" it a bit harder -- but since even the full momentum transfer is very unlikely to push someone over, this has a negligible effect on the probability of temporary incapacitation. It has even less of an effect on lethality: momentum has nothing do with killing people, and all other things being equal an exit wound promotes quicker bleeding.
Did Mythbusters also show how a human head shot with a powerful firearm will actually be pushed towards the shooter, and not away? This being because the brain and other matter ejected from exit wound along with the bullet tend to have more momentum than what is transfered from the bullet to the head, leading to an impulse to the (rest of) the head towards the shooter.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Mar 24 2006, 06:08 PM) |
| A bullet that does not penetrate through the target but gets lodged inside transfers more momentum to the body of the target, hence it will "shove" it a bit harder -- but since even the full momentum transfer is very unlikely to push someone over, this has a negligible effect on the probability of temporary incapacitation. |
"Negligible" perhaps, but "contributory" definitely. The contributory part has been my point, while I suspect the negligible has been yours.
Incidentally, the non-penetration shoving was what I was talking about (in the first thread) when I mentioned that body armor would ironically contribute more to someone's staggering than if the bullet had overpenetrated.
I think I'd be more inclined to use Body + Reaction, since it's partially reflexive and partially just being sturdier. Brahm said it earlier... Agility is overweighted in combat.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| Did Mythbusters also show how a human head shot with a powerful firearm will actually be pushed towards the shooter, and not away? This being because the brain and other matter ejected from exit wound along with the bullet tend to have more momentum than what is transfered from the bullet to the head, leading to an impulse to the (rest of) the head towards the shooter. |
I don't know.
But i think its plausible
. It would be like a ballon, or a rocket 
.
I have to say that it's pretty interesting that unless your Body is >3 that any stun whatsoever from gel rounds will knock you down. It does have a certain thematic effect, and I know SR4 combat is very lethal, but still, 1S is like when the bullet hits your body armor and doesn't go through...
Butteblume: I remember there was some american TV show that demonstrated it on a melon. Anyhow, you can see it in effect if you look closely at the tape of JFK being shot -- unless you believe in magic bullets, that is. 
| QUOTE (Azralon) |
| "Negligible" perhaps, but "contributory" definitely. The contributory part has been my point, while I suspect the negligible has been yours. |
I'll just go back to quoting the FBI Firearms Training Unit, then: "A bullet simply cannot knock a man down. [...] Tissue damage is the only physical link to incapacitation within the desired time frame, i.e., instantaneously." If you don't believe me, believe the guys who study this stuff for a living.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| "A bullet simply cannot knock a man down. [...] Tissue damage is the only physical link to incapacitation within the desired time frame, i.e., instantaneously." |
| QUOTE (Jules @ Pulp Fiction) |
| Shit, negro, that's all you had to say. |
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| Butteblume: I remember there was some american TV show that demonstrated it on a melon. Anyhow, you can see it in effect if you look closely at the tape of JFK being shot -- unless you believe in magic bullets, that is. |
Of course i believe in near-magic bullets. However, JFK is just not a good example. Except for magic bullets, maybe
.I wasn't ironic: if the bullet dislodges part of the skull, conservation of momentum will move the rest of the skull towards the shooter. That's physics.
| QUOTE (K2Grey) |
| I have to say that it's pretty interesting that unless your Body is >3 that any stun whatsoever from gel rounds will knock you down. It does have a certain thematic effect, and I know SR4 combat is very lethal, but still, 1S is like when the bullet hits your body armor and doesn't go through... |
SR4 ammo type rules are wacked. That is just another example of how wacked.
Couple that Body adjustment for knockdown with the +2 DV for gel rounds and holdouts firing gel rounds have the unarmored people rolling in the aisles. Even lightly armored with a Body of 4 and you are struggling to keep from getting knocked down because it is versus Impact, so unless they are wearing a helmet or a shield all the +2 AP normally does is bring the armor rating inline with the Balistic rating that regular ammo faces.
I just ignore knockdown completely with the exception of melee knockdowns. Seems to solve the problem. The only time I let targets be knocked down is on a glitched dodge roll, but that's more of a trip than a knockdown.
| QUOTE (Butterblume) |
| I wasn't ironic: if the bullet dislodges part of the skull, conservation of momentum will move the rest of the skull towards the shooter. That's physics. |
I wasn't trying to be funny either. AFAIK, on the JFK tape, his head seemingly jerks towards the shooter after a bullet impact, and some conspiracy theorists have tried to use this as proof that LHO wasn't the (only) assassin. But we now know, and perhaps those who were more privy to the terminal effects of firearms knew even then, that especially high velocity weapons, like rifles, tend to cause rather powerful pressure waves when traveling through liquid-filled organs, can open up craterous wounds in the head (or indeed just blow them up), and are quite capable of spraying a significant amount of matter at a reasonable velocity out of the exit wound.
If you don't mind gore (and are over 18 years of age) you can see lots of heads, or what remains of them, that have sustained injuries from rifles on this site.
I've only personally seen one person shot with a less lethal round from a shotgun, and it was Knoxville in Jackass. He crumpled right over and lay there on the ground for some time.
-Frank
-Frank
austere, your links win many fine prizes.
| QUOTE (Aku) |
| Austere, do yu actually KNOW anyone, whose first though, upong being shot, is "oh sh*t, he's got a gun. CHARGE!"? Would not be high on my thought list, thats for sure, i definately think, my first reaction, upon determine i'm aliv,e would be to play dead or get KNOCKDOWN'd |
Well yeah, but you're probably not on PCP either.
Do you get knocked down by attacks? Suffer pain? Do you focus on things and act rationally? Ask your doctor if PCP is right for you. PCP has been shown to greatly reduce these symptoms. Side effects are similar to a whole lot of sugar pills, and include nausea, vomiting, paranoia, elation, and crashing through plate glass windows without noticing. Women who are pregnant should not take PCP or handle broken PCP tablets or be around someone who has.
I know this thread has mainly become a discussion on whether or not a bullet can knock you down or not, but I just wanted to respond to this earlier post.
| QUOTE (Jeremymia) |
| I don't understand how someone can dodge while they're laying down. |
By rolling like a log to their left or right, and maybe even using their hands to slide back and forth a bit. This still isn't a great way to dodge things, though, as Frank pointed out. So it's obvious why the -2 modifier applies, but you are still able to do it in the first place.
without having read through the rest of this thread, here's my opinion on knockdown in ranged combat: make it a willpower tests against the amount of damage taken. not falling over when you get shot--or otherwise significantly injured--is a matter of your mental and physical reaction to shock. in SR, the best way to represent that is through willpower.
| QUOTE (Aku) |
| Austere, do yu actually KNOW anyone, whose first though, upong being shot, is "oh sh*t, he's got a gun. CHARGE!"? Would not be high on my thought list, thats for sure, i definately think, my first reaction, upon determine i'm aliv,e would be to play dead or get KNOCKDOWN'd |
Aku whether I say iknow someone like that is to ask whether I know myself
Due to physiologicaland Psychological abberations in my makeup, I don't have a flight response
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