Full Version: Atheism in 2070
| QUOTE (Apathy) | ||
It's a miracle! Praise Cthulu! |
Oh sure, now he's going to come and devour our souls, just great. Right when I was thinking today would be a good day too.
Miracle my ass! That's the 4th sign of the Apocalypse.
I'm very scared of all this niceness and agreement going on. It seems almost like a civil discourse on the forums... *shudder*
| QUOTE (Moon-Hawk) |
Regarding 77 virgins: Maybe this is just me, but I'd rather get 77 dirty girls, all into kinky stuff and who'll do anything. What? I'm dead, it's not like I have to worry about an STD! Dirty girls are better!  |
You know, when I read Dante's Inferno and got to the part with Medusa I was thinking that she must be pretty starved for affection. Being so ugly that you turn everyone who sees you to stone must be terrible for one's self-esteem and is sure to produce desperations accompanied by lowered standards. Since her perceived ugliness is based on Classical Greek standards of beauty and such standards vary greatly from culture-to-culture and person to person an enlightened modern perspective may protect one from her stony visage even if being dead does not. It would be worth a shot.
| QUOTE (Fangirl) |
| Of course, devout monsters such as Mother Teresa and her ilk do nothing but harm to this world, and once their evil lies about "love" and "brotherhood" are wiped from the earth, we will finally be able to live in peace. sarcastic.gif |
Well, there have been accusations of financial mismanagement.
| QUOTE (Apathy) |
| I think it's an oversimplification to think that islamic fundamentalists blow themselves up just to gain a free pass to paradise. From my perspective, this kind of mentality has to be fueled by large quantities of percieved persecution, impotent rage, and hopelessness more than anything else. |
'Tis true. Happy people don't blow themselves up (intentionally).
The Enquisitor's Religious News
Here it is 2070 and there are still Trideo-Evangelists.
Saving Souls in styling shows, and designer clothes.
Street Preachers in the Subways doling out little helping of faith and hope to the passerby's that they don't annoy. This fearless reporter found one such man who tended to the injured and diseased homeless living beneath our sight. Attempts to gain Trideo images of hin seem to be thwarted by some kind of Anti-Surveyance spell. As all images came back as a hazy or unfocussed watermark like blur.
A group of people in the UCAS lobbied outside the capital today to have Darwin's image on the $500 virtual bill.
The Trideo "Brian Returns" seems to be a hit comedy, with a strange plot.
The 7th Church of Kirk on Federated way will be holding it's annual Pot-Luck this saturday.
Invitations are extended to all to come and enjoy Unity.
On a side note this reporter is still wondering were are the flying cars.
Good night, Good Luck.
Here it is 2070 and there are still Trideo-Evangelists.
Saving Souls in styling shows, and designer clothes.
Street Preachers in the Subways doling out little helping of faith and hope to the passerby's that they don't annoy. This fearless reporter found one such man who tended to the injured and diseased homeless living beneath our sight. Attempts to gain Trideo images of hin seem to be thwarted by some kind of Anti-Surveyance spell. As all images came back as a hazy or unfocussed watermark like blur.
A group of people in the UCAS lobbied outside the capital today to have Darwin's image on the $500 virtual bill.
The Trideo "Brian Returns" seems to be a hit comedy, with a strange plot.
The 7th Church of Kirk on Federated way will be holding it's annual Pot-Luck this saturday.
Invitations are extended to all to come and enjoy Unity.
On a side note this reporter is still wondering were are the flying cars.
Good night, Good Luck.
Devours D6 investigators per turn!
I guess any subject other than SR, even religion, will make us very rational and conciliatory.
Notice how the conversation died after we pointed out how nice we were being to each other.
[Aztec]Obviously, all the problems in the world today are caused by the fact that no one sacrifices the hearts of the vanquished to the gods anymore. [/Aztec]
Not all religions are about being good people. Some are about killing good people for your gods. Obviously the fact that Aztec-style human sacrifices work just a well as evangelical Christian miracle magic presents one with a quandry. Which religion is right?
For that matter, what about Cargo Cults? Before the awakening their wooden control towers and bamboo radios wouldn't persuade their ancestors to send over more airplanes. Now, these rituals are just as likely to summon high-force spirits in the guise of cargo aircraft.
Not all religions are about being good people. Some are about killing good people for your gods. Obviously the fact that Aztec-style human sacrifices work just a well as evangelical Christian miracle magic presents one with a quandry. Which religion is right?
For that matter, what about Cargo Cults? Before the awakening their wooden control towers and bamboo radios wouldn't persuade their ancestors to send over more airplanes. Now, these rituals are just as likely to summon high-force spirits in the guise of cargo aircraft.
| QUOTE (emo samurai) |
| I guess any subject other than SR, even religion, will make us very rational and conciliatory. |
Just shows what we really care about
| QUOTE (emo samurai) |
| Notice how the conversation died after we pointed out how nice we were being to each other. |
Actually thought it was because we are not trying to get into a hard core discussion of belief systems.
Possible continuing questions
How many of the old religions would resurface? What about freedom of religion?
Would Scientology still be around?
What moves might the hard core "I don't believe in God so much that other people's beliefs offend me" atheists attempt?
However, if its really needed then.
Flame flame flame flame, flame flame flame; flame flame flame flame, flame flame flame.
Barbeque...
[Puts up Universal Church Soyburger Barbeque gathering sign]
Cause were all Brothers and Sisters in Gods eyes.
Ok, continue on with nice social gathering.
i tend to assume that Scientology was co-opted completely by the UB.
as for old religions, well, Asatru obviously got a big boost.
as for old religions, well, Asatru obviously got a big boost.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| i tend to assume that Scientology was co-opted completely by the UB. |
Well, they did it to the Moonies.
I think that the Scientologists, Moonies, and a few others would have a number of their members awaken, and consider taking over the world, before being invaded and destroyed by a swarming legion of awakened, bitter, ex-cult members.
But hyzmarca had a good point about some of the more obsure religions. Magic doesn't care what people believe in, as long as it is a strong and internally-consistent enough belief to channel magic. People could worship the Cthulhu mythos or their favorite anime, and get magic from it.
Atheists would point out that everyone, including them, can potentially use magic, and this magic operates by the same set of "rules" for everyone. But would anyone listen to them? Although there still would be plenty of religious people who would also consider magic and their religion to be two separate things.
Spirits are another interesting thing. Are they created from the unconsious will of the summoner, or are they beings in their own right, who take a form subconsciously chosen by the summoner? Does that "angel" you summoned actually think it's a real angel, or is it internally rolling its eyes at you?
But hyzmarca had a good point about some of the more obsure religions. Magic doesn't care what people believe in, as long as it is a strong and internally-consistent enough belief to channel magic. People could worship the Cthulhu mythos or their favorite anime, and get magic from it.
Atheists would point out that everyone, including them, can potentially use magic, and this magic operates by the same set of "rules" for everyone. But would anyone listen to them? Although there still would be plenty of religious people who would also consider magic and their religion to be two separate things.
Spirits are another interesting thing. Are they created from the unconsious will of the summoner, or are they beings in their own right, who take a form subconsciously chosen by the summoner? Does that "angel" you summoned actually think it's a real angel, or is it internally rolling its eyes at you?
| QUOTE (Glyph) |
| Magic doesn't care what people believe in, as long as it is a strong and internally-consistent enough belief to channel magic. People could worship the Cthulhu mythos or their favorite anime, and get magic from it. |
that's not necessarily so. it could also be that all these belief systems are, in some part, real, and are able to provide certain adherants with magical power. nor is it even remotely provable that everyone has magical potential--heck, that's one that hasn't even been implied out-of-character, in SR.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| [Aztec]Obviously, all the problems in the world today are caused by the fact that no one sacrifices the hearts of the vanquished to the gods anymore. [/Aztec] Not all religions are about being good people. Some are about killing good people for your gods. Obviously the fact that Aztec-style human sacrifices work just a well as evangelical Christian miracle magic presents one with a quandry. Which religion is right? For that matter, what about Cargo Cults? Before the awakening their wooden control towers and bamboo radios wouldn't persuade their ancestors to send over more airplanes. Now, these rituals are just as likely to summon high-force spirits in the guise of cargo aircraft. |
I think that's just a matter of perspective and rationale. We kill one another all the time, over religion, nationalism, and any number of other causes. How many tens of thousands of christians and muslims have slaughtered each other for their God during crusades and jihads of the last few centuries? At least the sacrifices those Aztecs took were supposedly enemy warriors, not innocents. Doesn't the bible show a precedence for human sacrifice when He makes Abraham show a willingness to sacrifice Ismael? Why should Aztecs be any less obedient than he was. (Granted, He supposedly stopped the show at the last second, but that could just mean that He was more PR-savvy, or had a better press agent.)
| QUOTE (Apathy) | ||
I think that's just a matter of perspective and rationale. We kill one another all the time, over religion, nationalism, and any number of other causes. How many tens of thousands of christians and muslims have slaughtered each other for their God during crusades and jihads of the last few centuries? At least the sacrifices those Aztecs took were supposedly enemy warriors, not innocents. Doesn't the bible show a precedence for human sacrifice when He makes Abraham show a willingness to sacrifice Ismael? Why should Aztecs be any less obedient than he was. (Granted, He supposedly stopped the show at the last second, but that could just mean that He was more PR-savvy, or had a better press agent.) |
A better press agent. YHWH outlawed human sacrifice after the Abraham incident but what about all the human sacrifices he recieved before it? Surely, there were a bunch of very pissed off people as a result of that.
| QUOTE (Glyph) |
| I think that the Scientologists, Moonies, and a few others would have a number of their members awaken, and consider taking over the world, before being invaded and destroyed by a swarming legion of awakened, bitter, ex-cult members. |
"Help me Jesus! Help me Tom Cruise! Save me with your witchcraft!"
- Teladega Nights
| QUOTE (Glyph) |
| Atheists would point out that everyone, including them, can potentially use magic, and this magic operates by the same set of "rules" for everyone. But would anyone listen to them? |
Does anyone listen to them now? Personally, I doubt the Awakening would make much difference to true believers (atheists or theists of any type). It's the agnostics, fence-sitters, and Sunday-morning types* that would be most affected IMO, since it would force them to re-examined their beliefs and make up their minds - and that would be a lot of people.
* I'm not picking on xians here, all major religions have their share of these go-with-the-flow sort of people.
| QUOTE (Glyph) |
| Does that "angel" you summoned actually think it's a real angel, or is it internally rolling its eyes at you? |
Catholic Theurgist - "Oh angel of the Lord, come to my aid!"
Fire spirit 1 - "Ah man!"
Fire spirit 2 - "What's the matter Frank?"
Fire spirit 1 - "It's that angel guy trying to summon me again. Man, I hate that guy! Every time I have to dress up in those stupid wings and that skirt-toga thing, makes me feel like a wuss. I'd like to give that son-of-a-bitch a piece of my mind!"
Fire spirit 2 - "Just ignore him."
Fire spirit 1 - "I can't, I gotta go." <materializes on the physical> "What is thy bidding, oh faithful child of God?"
And magicians wonder why spirits hate them.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| A better press agent. YHWH outlawed human sacrifice after the Abraham incident |
Not entirely. It's a rather obscure bit that's often swept under the rug and not mentioned, but...
| QUOTE |
| And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD : "If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering." - Judges 11:30-31 When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of tambourines! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. - Judges 11:34 After the two months, she returned to her father and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin. - Judges 11:39 |
Just goes to show YHWH has had a number of very good press agents down through the ages.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| that's not necessarily so. it could also be that all these belief systems are, in some part, real, and are able to provide certain adherants with magical power. nor is it even remotely provable that everyone has magical potential--heck, that's one that hasn't even been implied out-of-character, in SR. |
However I do seem to recall reading somewhere in the fluff that Big D is on the record as stating that there is only one Magic and that the differences between Shamans and Mages are solely based in belief and not in the nature of magic itself. The changes in 4th Edition magic seems to echo this, although I'm fairly sure they were done to streamline the rules and not to advance the background fluff.
| QUOTE (Glyph) |
| Spirits are another interesting thing. Are they created from the unconsious will of the summoner, |
Does this make anyone else think of Forbidden Planet Monsters from the ID.
Imagine a string of murders/crimes perpetrated by a Sleep Summoner.
| QUOTE (NightmareX) | ||||
Not entirely. It's a rather obscure bit that's often swept under the rug and not mentioned, but...
Just goes to show YHWH has had a number of very good press agents down through the ages. |
That was all Jephthah's idea, though. The ancient Israelites did a lot of stuff that wasn't necessarily divinely sanctioned.
| QUOTE (Glyph) |
| That was all Jephthah's idea, though. The ancient Israelites did a lot of stuff that wasn't necessarily divinely sanctioned. |
True, but IIRC he wasn't punished or even reprimanded by YHVH for it. Given the "active" nature of YHVH in the OT, one would expect Jephthah to receive some divine smack down or at least a talking to if YHVH didn't approve of the sacrifice.
For that matter, Jephthah isn't the one who choose his daughter to be the sacrifice. He stated that whatever first greeted him wouuld be the sacrifice. He would have no control over this randomization of potential sacrifices but YHWH would. Presumably, whatever first greeted him would be YHWH's choice for a sacrifice.
Exactly. YHWH is a mac-daddy pimp stealin' all dem virgins fo' himself.
ROFLMAO
It also goes to show the value placed on a man (Isaac) as opposed to a woman by Jewish culture of the time (and presumably YHVH too).
It also goes to show the value placed on a man (Isaac) as opposed to a woman by Jewish culture of the time (and presumably YHVH too).
You really need to read that story in the proper context.
But the proper context might destroy my YHWH is a playa' theory, and I'll have none of that. I would much rather base my oppinions on my uninformed layman's observations.
Well, you're in the right forum for that. 
This is, as they say, how we do.
| QUOTE (Glyph) |
| You really need to read that story in the proper context. |
Like the rest of the Bible, I think the story can really stand on it's legs and be understood on it's own merits without resorting to the defense and excuses of Proper Context. Especially if one considers it to be Inerrant and Literally True.
But I think that Glyph was making a valid point there!
The page you linked to states that "taking something 'out of context' means to isolate and/or arrange the statement or words in such a way that its meaning has been changed from what the writer or speaker intended." The page Glyph linked to indicates that, by grouping Jephthah in with a bunch of other sinful people, the author(s) of Judges intended to present Jephthah's actions as being morally wrong. However, when you first quoted the story, you implied that it was meant to set up Jephthah's actions as being morally exemplary. Thus, you misrepresented the nature of the message that the author(s) was/were trying to send - in other words, you were taking the verses out of context - and this obstructs the reader's ability to understand the lessons that the Bible tries to teach. How can a verse "stand on it's [sic] legs" if you've knocked the bottom out of it?
Now...how can we tie Jephthah back to Shadowrun?
EDIT: Changed some sentence structures and added the rhetorical question.
The page you linked to states that "taking something 'out of context' means to isolate and/or arrange the statement or words in such a way that its meaning has been changed from what the writer or speaker intended." The page Glyph linked to indicates that, by grouping Jephthah in with a bunch of other sinful people, the author(s) of Judges intended to present Jephthah's actions as being morally wrong. However, when you first quoted the story, you implied that it was meant to set up Jephthah's actions as being morally exemplary. Thus, you misrepresented the nature of the message that the author(s) was/were trying to send - in other words, you were taking the verses out of context - and this obstructs the reader's ability to understand the lessons that the Bible tries to teach. How can a verse "stand on it's [sic] legs" if you've knocked the bottom out of it?
Now...how can we tie Jephthah back to Shadowrun?
EDIT: Changed some sentence structures and added the rhetorical question.
| QUOTE (FanGirl) |
| Now...how can we tie Jephthah back to Shadowrun? |
Religious nut #1 hires shadowrunners to prevent the sacrifice of religious nut #2's [his enemy's] daughter, not because he cares about the girl, but because he believes that this intercession will put #2 in default of his pledge to their God and bring the guy bad luck. Upon safely extracting the girl, they hand her over to #1, who pays them, thanking them profusely, and happily pulls out a handgun and puts a bullet through her head himself.
[uplifting story if I've ever heard one]
| QUOTE (FanGirl) |
| Now...how can we tie Jephthah back to Shadowrun? |
You are precisely correct on this one Fangirl. We've strayed too far into the realm of religion, and for that I apoligize. I merely brought up the story originally as a bit of trivia. For that reason, I've put my response to your post in a spoiler block. If you or anyone else wishes to continue this sub-discussion, I think it would be better if we do so privately via pm or email.
Shadowrun uber alles!
[ Spoiler ]
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