<sigh> Katie, bar the door....

I think krayola red means "of the two", not as they compare to another weapon/system.

Gotta agree with Angelone here. Unless you know how to use a knife or OC spray, you're just as likely to get it taken away from you and get stabbed/shot with your own weapon.

And even if you ARE trained, there are so many variables to take into account.

Right, but the question is mostly meaningless. In untrained hands I'd probably say the spray, due to dual concerns of probably being more willing to use it (though this cuts both ways) and having slightly less ugly potential if the opponent gains control of it, but ultimately I'd say if you haven't trained you have no business carrying a weapon.

Note that I don't have military/LE experience.

~J

If the other guy's unarmed and also untrained, you don't really need training with a knife to be dangerous with it, just a willingness to get your hands dirty. And your forearms. And most of the rest of you.

Most people don't have that mindset. I carry a knife everywhere, but as a tool much much more than as a weapon. I suppose if it came down to it, in an emergency it would occur to me to put the pointy end inside someone as fast as I can, and to repeat until insertion was no longer necessary. Whether I could or not, to be quite honest, I think has little to do with the physicality of the act, and everything to do with my state of mind at the time. To protect my wife, undoubtedly. To protect myself? My stuff? A stranger? I really don't know.

Either way, as much as I wouldn't mind formal training on how to use a knife as a weapon, I'd go for some hand-to-hand stuff first. And before that, more pistol work.

All that's just kind of an aside -- as to the actual question, I'd say pepper spray is a better bet for an untrained person interested in self defense. Both would be ideal (one for less-than-lethal situations, one for extremely up close and in your face crises), but if it came down to one or the other, I think the pepper spray would be the way to go. Everyone knows how to squirt something in the right general direction, it would let you irritate someone without having to get terribly close, and it's going to be easier to justify in court than fileting someone.

That said, look into very specific brands/types before you buy. The stuff comes in a hojillion different varieties nowadays, everything from an actual squirt-style spray (just like a water gun) to an aerosol style for a mist/fog (hard to miss with, capable of giving a facefull to multiple attackers, but horrible for you if the wind's blowing the wrong way), and IIRC even a foam-texture style (which will only affect who you hit with it, no getting a face-full yourself 'cause of a breeze and a gel (which is similar to the foam, has pretty good range, and single-targets, plus it sticks).

So there's a variety of 'em available, depending on what you have in mind, and your own willingness to maybe end up with a face full, yourself. And, btw, that might not be a bad idea (especially if you get a fogger/mister type, and might end up with some in an actual emergency) -- cops and military guys in most instances are required to get sprayed with this stuff before they can carry it, and it makes sense. You want an idea of what you're gonna do to someone if you spray 'em (so you can get a feel for what they can and can't still accomplish, under it's effects), and you want to show yourself that you can live through it (so you don't get a whiff in a fight, lock up, and get killed as a result of panic, shock, etc). Don't go huffing it or anything, but spraying a little into the air on a windy day, then walking into it a little (in a controlled situation, with a friend or two nearby) might not be a horrible idea.

Whether you plan on a self-test or not (and, especially if you have asthma, the self-test might NOT be a good idea, but then carrying it might not be too bright, either) -- do find somewhere safe, and open, and outdoors, and ventilated, and fire it a few times. Learn what sort of range and accuracy you can expect, get a feel for where you press to make it shoot, etc, etc. Just because it's not a gun or a knife doesn't mean you shouldn't practice with it -- it's still a weapon, and weapons are at their most dangerous (to all involved) in unskilled hands. Use a paper plate as a target (draw an angry smiley on it if you want), and see how that foam shoots, or soak it in a stream, or see how close you'll need to be to spray/mist it. Practice with your weapon, whatever it might be.

Oh, and last bit of advice, check the Scoville Heat Unit of whatever brand you're considering. 1.5-2 million is the "default" for police-grade stuff (iirc, 2 mill is the highest allowed). Higher the better (nastier). If whatever you're thinking of buying doesn't mention the SHU, buy something else -- it's like a car manufacturer not telling you the miles per gallon, or something.

If someone was asking me "I want to carry something I'll train for an hour with once every few years," I'd send them towards the spray and try to drive home the point that the goal is to get the fuck outta Dodge, not to mess up whoever you just used it on. Essentially untrained people should not be carrying lethal weapons, in my opinion.

If someone was asking me who had a serious interest in self defense and was going to put in training time, I'd tell 'em to carry both. Options, options, options...

Or, you could just go here and have this discussion all over again.

No training at all?

Hmm.

How about that Taser Jacket that was posted a little while ago?

http://www.no-contact.com/




-karma

Can I get an outside opinion? Am I really making this little sense?

~J

Just to clarify, I'm not in any way whatsoever against the idea of weapons training - in fact, I think that it would be foolish not to train with your weapon of choice if you have the means to do so. There are drawbacks to carrying an unfamiliar weapon that haven't been mentioned here, such as the possibility of fumbling your draw, thereby giving your opponent an even larger window to make his attack. That doesn't, however, mean that untrained people shouldn't carry weapons, because on the whole, it's still an advantage to do so, provided that one simple philosophy is followed: if you have a lethal weapon, don't use it to escalate the level of violence from non-lethal to lethal. If you don't have good reason to believe that your life is threatened, don't draw it, both for practical (more important) and legal (less important) purposes.

To go back a good bit, when I was trained on OC they sprayed me right in the face, full on. They had us attack them, then hosed us hardcore. They had talked about how some people were immune to pepper spray, and for a split second I thought I might be.

Then they got me in the eyes....That didnt feel very good. Immediately after they had some training exercises for us to go through with OC in our eyes. I had to go kick a bag a bunch, whack a bit with a baton, stuff like that. And after the first few seconds, I was able to fight, and I was SUPER pissed.

So, if you want to carry OC, realize that after you spray it, you need to either get out of there or take control of the person immediately. Otherwise, a good deal of people will just fight harder. Some will give up, but in my experience, most people that are the type of person to initiate an attack on a person have done it before, and are more conditioned than the less violent person.

But I personally wouldn't ever carry a knife, mostly because I think any court will rule differently on a self defense case involving knives. Stabbing someone is considered barabaric to most people, shooting someone seems more acceptable. In the public eye, thats what counts.

You guys should just follow my motto:

When in doubt, shoot it out!

It pretty much takes the guesswork right out of it...

Whatever you say, champ. Honestly, I don't even know why I bother.

I would like to add if you have to train in something to prepare for a bad situation, have it be your legs. That means RUN! Only fall back on violence if there is no other option.

Mindset, training, self defense tools and the will to use them are fine and good, but the fight you don't get into is a fight you will never lose.

Edit- for clarity

For many situations, and many (mostly single) people, that's very sound advice. The best self defense investment many people can make is a good pair of running shoes and a gym membership.

But it all depends on what sort of "bad situation" you're trying to prepare for. I can outrun my wife -- that doesn't mean I'm going to, if we're both accosted by bad men on the street who wish to harm us despite us peacefully handing over wallets and purses. There's only one door into and out of my apartment, with the bedroom as far away from that entrance/exit as it's possible to be -- sprinting in circles around the bed won't get home invaders to leave me alone, and in order to run past them I have to run through them.

And, similarly, it would help you be able to run if you were to give someone about to chase you a mouthfull of mace first. That's why my wife -- no Olympic sprinter, especially after a long shift at the hospital -- has the keychain she does.

Etc, etc.

Running is all well and good, and 99% of the time it's absolutely the best answer. But if you're trying to look out for more people than just yourself, or if you're already in a place that's supposed to be "safe," it's not quite as usefull.