Thanks for correcting my dog brain bit. My time on DS got me confused. My 2 cent defense of my stance on agents is that your calling agents just as smart as people is dumb for all the reasons mentioned. It hurts the game. I choose to read a lot onto the quotes they use on for "smart" and "mental attribute". To me this means the quoted terms suggestive rather than literal. If you want to read it literally go for it, I'll stay at my table.

Yes not hurting the game is always nice. That is why many people decide to create house rules for equalizing a game. I fully believe that what you have stated makes the game nicer since you don't have agent Smiths running around willy nilly.

On dice pool sizes: obviously it depends upon your assumptions but:

For a 'professional 'elite' security guard... those guys that guard the hard targets or get called upon, in force, to respond to armed intruders I worked up the following assumptions

Attributes for relevant professional skills average to 4 prior to racial modifiers. That means agility is 4
Skills are presumed, for this level professional, to 4 as well for relevant skills (shooting).
Smartlinks are assumed for all professionally equiped guards, and we don't even have to drop to cyberware to get them these days. For non-shooters (this does apply to most professional NPC's regardless of profession) similar AR bonuses can be applied usually.
Specialization in issued weapon/tasks are assumed as well.

Thats a dice pool of 12 for a relatively unexceptional 'faceless mook', not an individual who is hired, as an independent individual who's job it is requires the 'shoot a guy in the face' and I haven't even mentioned any 'job standard' cyberware they might have. Muscle replacement 1 is cheap and provides another die right there.

That's the baseline pool for NPC professionals. The 'Elite Pro' NPC's will bump attributes and skills to 5, and have more/better cyber.

That dude guarding the front lobby of the office? He tosses out 5 dice without smartlinking or specializing, but I'd assume both.


The only potential point of controversy is on specializations. Given that large organizations train on specific equipment I don't think the IDEA of specialization is particularly debateable, but how its applied (before or after determining specific skill values... that is, should pros have a skill of 4+ spec or 4 WITH spec).

Of course, I also would assume for on site defenders the 'home ground' advantage in many cases, though it's use in actual combat is less certain.

Once I determined my baseline dice pool (for shooting in this case) it makes it easier to see where a Shadowrunner can fall on the spectrum of comparison.

For example: tossing six dice on social tests? Yeah, you qualify for a job as a nameless bartender in an average club (attributes of 2, 3 charisma, ettiqutte 2-3 with a possible specialization in 'keep the customer buying drinks'..) or a street hustler (same, only replace ettiquette with Con and add a specialization in 'seperating fools from their money').

A street sammy should have a higher base agility (five), better cyber, probably reflex recorders and a higher skill in what they consider their specialty. The difference between a specialist and a hyperspecialist lies in things like 'exceptional attributes' and 'aptitudes', more effort spent squeezing dice (making sure to hard cap Agility with cyber) and possibly picking a race (elf?) and/or mixing in adept-hood with the cyber to really squeeze in points.

I am tempted to cover niche protection in Shadowrun in detail, but I'll leave it for the nonce with this: If the average runner on the team struggles to match the dice the security guards are tossing, then they need to make sure the ENTIRE team avoids combat, because Shadowrunners don't have the luxury of numbers on their side.

As I said, for comparisons of actual intellectual ability, they are equivalent. Agents won't act outside of what they're told to do, and they can't really make decisions on their own (severely reducing their willy nilly running around capabilities). But for defense, they're pretty much the best around.

Going by SR4, there are 7 ratings of professionalism for NPCs. 0-6. 3-4 is considered "Trained". This is what I would call a professional (since 5-6 is called "Elite"). Examples of Trained NPCs... Lone Star Police Squad. Agi is 4, Combat Skills are 3 (clubs, unarmed, and pistols). Gear doesn't include even a smartlink, or specializations. Gives them a DP of 7.

Rating 4 NPC is a Triad Posse member. Agi 5, combat skills of 3, no smart links, no specializations. GIves them a DP of 8.

Elite rating 5 Red Samurai have Agi 5, and 5 in firearms. Along with a smartlink, and wired 1. Giving them 2 passes and 12 dice.

Elite rating 6 Tir Ghosts have, Agi 6, Firearms 5, Smartlink, and Wired 2. Giving them 13 DP and 3 passes.


I think your consideration of a "professional" security guard matches more closely to the books intended elite combat units of the red samurai.

If you consider elite to be "professional" then yes, its hard to diversify out to a "professional" level in any secondary skills, since your level of "professional" is comparable to the books level of elite.

Ive always considered the mooks, again, around skill-attribute 3(primary skill), with a few at 2 to round em out. Most 'mooks' are maybe a little above Joe Average, IMO, and will have 3's in their 'primary' stats. But again, everyone's game is different. 12 DP for regular, faceless mooks i might use for a Jet-Li/Insert Action Movie or Game Here style high action game, but not a normal 400 BP game.

As for average PC DP, this really can vary; our games can vary from 14 to 18 for a primary skill. Not in the same game, usually, but among several ones-and these are all 400 BP. But we tend to go a little bit higher than 'normal' i guess.

And honestly, if one gun guy has a 14 max DP, and another melee guy has an 18 DP, they aren't going to be showing each other up as much as they will be excelling in their own field. Hell, even 2 gun guys with a 4 DP difference is really only a success or two on average. (Ive found usually the lower DPs tend to make up for it in Edge, anyway.)

I generally have my general purpose security guards using between 5-8 dice depending on their price tag. Gear is usually roughly proportional. The onsite guards are there mostly because they are a deterrent just by being present, and they are an extra set of eyes and ears. In a lot of applications my Rent-A-Cop type guards are trained almost equally in customer service and security.

A human mall sec guard in one of my games is likely to have:

Attributes: all at 3
Skills: Unarmed Combat 3, Clubs 2, Perception 3, Pistols 2, Ettiquette 3, Intimidation 2 (with a specialization in interrogation)

Gear: Comm (a lower end one) a stun baton, A pistol or taser, plastic restraints, Armor vest or Jacket

In short not a lot of a challenge individually, but there will be a fair number of them and they will have the ability to get back up fairly quickly if they need it.

First of all, you were getting an exerpt from a longer bit I was writing personally.

I fully admit that these are top tier professionals mooks, which is why I contrasted them against the lobby guard. Again, you miss a point: I consider specialization a strong factor in professional training, based on personal expirence. I do admit that you can debate wether or not specialization should apply before or after setting the rating of a skill level.

More to the point: I'm an old school gamer. I ALWAYS view NPC creation as the GM's business. Things like the professional ratings are not limits to how I make my NPCs by any means, at best they are advice or a reference point so I can interpret modules accurately.

I specifically said (I thought) that these are the guys on site at high value facilities. This isn't the calibre of guard you'll find at the local law office or the street cops. The level above them are for High Threat Response teams (where you start seeing 5's... though also notice that I more or less top out all 'mook' skills at 4, so even then you won't see skills of 5 for groups of NPC's barring extreme circumstances...)

In other words, my numbers do actually match up to yours 'from the book' more or less, with the singular exception of the fact I add specialization to the mix explicitely.

To be more exact, my professionals cover a spectrum from 6 dice to 8 pre 'equipment/race/cyber' and pre-specialization, or 8-10 after.

Blame the lack of granularity brought on by 1-6 scaling if you like. Based on what you are doing at a given time, a single point of a stat or skill has such a trivial effect on the game as to barely register. Dice pools are aggregate, and to keep them low you need to make uncomfortable assumptions (like corps not giving smartlinks to their troops? Not hardly. Like not training on a single weapon system enough to count as specialized in it? Not at this level... and certainly not above it).

Of course, I also assume that, racism aside, a huge percentage of armed guards are orks, based on a large breeding population and cost effective capabilities.

Well, Smartlinks are something i assume do come with the territory. My mooks usually run about 7-8 dice; 5 natural pool and the smartlink. The Stun Baton usually gets...5 dice, plus reach, for 6. And Stun Batons are pretty nasty in and of themselves, not relying on Strength and halving armor. (Also, i tend to find mooks with gel rounds do alot better than mooks with regular ammo. That +2 to DV, and turning it stun, does quite a bit, especially given the shorter stun tracks. In addition-when my mooks use gel and stun, I find the PCs use less lethal tactics as well. It's a win all around.)

I do think some level might have a specialization. Im not sure if i would make this 'guy at the desk' but at least the...for lack of a better word, what ive seen nicknamed 'Mauve Shirts' might get it(they are a little cut above the garden variety mook, but not really elite.) Ive(and im sure many others) have designed varied opposition for their games. To me, Elite of the Elite is a Tir Paladin(they were really, really badass if i recall.) THAT is when the PCs should get the hell out as fast as possible.

There's been some instances that Ive actually seen that the regular mooks actually ended up cutting and running before the backup got there. There are times where they will just fail composure rolls and decide their jobs aren't worth their life. (this usually, i find, comes after a really spectacular hit or two. If the 18 year old skinny looking elf kid is an adept who burns Edge and cuts three in half in one shot, hypothetically lets say- in many of my games, the other four guards are going to get the hell out of Dodge, backup arriving or not.) It's a little off the DP topic but it comes to mind when thinking of professional ratings and how long they stick around; i believe the lowest of the low tend to cut and run after even a Light wound(ok, old rules).

I guess you can say there are Mooks, Mook +'s, Mook ++'s, and then you start getting to SWAT or other HTR things, drones(heavier, lighter drones I pepper about sometimes earlier) Red Samurai/Tir Ghosts, and then after that, Tir Paladins or specific, named NPCs and Really Big Badasses. And stuff in between even them.

It is pretty interesting to see how other folks handle their mooks, however. Ive seen mooks handled at least a half dozen different ways. Nothing wrong with it, either, of course.

Eh: I consider 5 or 6 dice scraping the bottom of the barrel, thats the dice tossed by that fat donut eating slob guarding the stuffer shack in the mall. Why? because a skill of 3 is 'professional', that's why. If you get paid to be able to shoot people, they are going to want to ensure you actually can... you know... shoot.

A 1 is what I give people who have guns but no earthly reason to be shooters (bartenders who keep a shotgun under the bar.. they know which way to point it), which leave 2 for all the 'yeah, he should know what he's doing, but he's no pro'. Support soldiers/police types (meaning specifically: Non-combat arms soldiers) have 2's.

Then again, I also don't consider any group of nameless NPC's, not matter how badass their rep is, to be 'PC killers' one on one. If I need opposition that cool, they get individual treatment and names and even backstories.

Again, my logic goes:

Attribute 1: physically or mentally deficent, sub par. (not retarded, necessarily). For NPCs you'll never see this unless you go looking for it. People with 1's stand out in the crowd, don't get hired. Note that 'named' NPCs might have a one (Dr. House, I'm calling you...)

Attribute 2: Average, unexceptional in any way. Default attribute for nameless NPCs on the street.

Attribute 3: Slightly above average. Jobs that require a particular trait (charisma for bartenders and salesmen, body and/or strength for security... at a minimum) will be dominated by this level, lower than that and they generally are uncompetetive and don't stay in the job long enough to stick out.

Attribute 4: Good. People who are in high level versions of said jobs tend to get here, thus it starts to show up in increasing frequency as a minimum for well paid professionals.

Attribute 5: Superior: only found in limited numbers in hightly competetive, highly trained professionals in a career, and even then they won't have it 'across the board' in relevant stats unless they are the elite of the elite.

Attribute 6: Never found in faceless NPCs outside of the same circumstances as attribute 1 stats. Raid a Mr Universe Competition or a Hollywood movie studio during filming and you'll see this...


Skills work pretty similarly, only scaled down a step. So:

Skill 1: Won't shoot his foot off. If they have a reason to use a particular skill outside of extreme circumstances (like the PC's handing a gun to a terrified NPC and telling him to shoot someone) they'll have at least this level.

Skill 2: Typical amatuer enthusiast. Many streetgangers or security goons who aren't issued guns but have them anyway fall here. Technically, many low level professionals can 'slip' down to this level, but as exceptions to the rule they are not covered as we are dealing with 'masses'.

Skill 3: professionally trained. Skill is a 'job requirement'. If you are issued equipment with the expectation of using it, you WILL have this skill.

Skill 4: Expert. This guy goes a cut above. Maybe his job is 'elite', maybe he gets more time at the range. Maybe he ONLY does his job when he's shooting a bastard in the face. This isn't just a job requirement skill, its the fooken job, mano. Infantry on the ground would be here in one or more skill depending upon how well trained they are.

Skill 5: Elite: rarely, if ever, found in faceless NPCs, if for no other reason that difficulty in maintaining this level of proficency while still being 'cost effective'. Ideally, no faceless NPC group should ever have more than one (maybe two) skills at this level, and we can extrapolate that they have a high turn over due to injury or even just burnout as a result.

Skill 6: reserved for individuals, including Named NPCs and PCs. You simply can't have a 'group' of 'best in the world' shooters. Again: Exemption if you raid a professional shooting competition or something, but really... yeah. Even then...


I don't see this as a departure from the book's breakdown particularly, though there are some minor debates. My main Point of Departure is slapping specialties on there, but given how they already work I don't see a problem with it (specialties go to 8...), just like I don't factor in racial modifiers when determining professional level, or cyberware.


What really sets the high end NPCs off from the low end isn't raw DP (which can vary by 2 dice), its the gear they get to support that. Even if I postulate a 4/4 group of guards watching a warehouse, if I don't give them wired reflexes and muscle replacement and so on then they really aren't going to be a huge threat. Thus, let say we make the warehouse guards 'Mafia'.. and they are wearing urban armored clothes and equipped with pistols. Their DP is roughly equivilent to what you suggested Red Samurai have, maybe a point or two short, but the difference in loadout makes a huge impact on play. RS will have sec armor, helmets, assault rifles, plenty of cyber, and swords.

Ghosts will be Elves, have adept/bio powers (for the purposes of dealing with groups of faceless opponents they'll be treated as functionally equivilent as long as I don't violate any rules for either...), and plenty of neat gear too...

Gear can do a hell of a lot. Even take the Attribute 3 Skill 3 spread guard. Give him a good Assault Rifle with some stuff(gas vent, shock pad), Smartlinked(that's 8 dice, which isn't godawful), the sec armor, helmet, and the Stun Baton where he throws 7 dice after reach, and just 1 level of wired reflexes, with say some goggles that have the smartlink and vision modifiers, and the 'professional level guy' becomes a tad more dangerous. He's no god or anything, but he's somewhat of a threat. Granted, most corps might would rather apply their resources for Wired Reflexes on those guys that run around 4's, but just for a hypothetical situation.

The only drawback is the Body and Armor; but then again, sec-armor and helmets i think have more armor than Red Samurai have Body(I don't think the average red sam even has a 6 body, like you said, you aren't going to find that in squads), so even they are going to take that Agility hit. But with the protection it gives it might be worth it.

Honestly, your spread is exactly how I think it; in SR4 i always thought the 2 was joe on the street; 3 Professional. But even professionals probably have some 2's scattered around(i mean, elites probably have 2s in some skills. Not their main ones, naturally, but some.) A sec guard might not need a 3 Interrogation; their job is more, IMO, to catch the guy to take him to someone else to interrogate.

That's a great example. Similarly, a really great hack might go unnoticed for a long time, or a great roll reassembling a maglock (nobody would think "hey, the parts fit together better now"!), or whatever. Someone with a massive social skill dice pool could be incredibly Intimidating, for example, and that would be memorable -- picture Christopher Walken threatening you -- or they could use Etiquette to fit in, and that would not be memorable (nobody would think "hey, that guy belongs here so much, he should be in charge!").

Combat skills, particularly those of some "sniper" "characters" posted here, might be like that: if you typically use your huge dicepool to shoot guards in a particular spot, anyone investigating would at least be able to say "this looks like the work of the Medulla Oblongata Murderer".

An Agent 6 possibly functions as a Logic 6, Intuition 0 character competent but unimaginative computer program, analogous in some way to an idiot-savant.

Yer, 'may also represent ... "Mental attributes" when called for' is different from 'thinks like a real person'. The Pilot attribute stands in for mental attributes for die-rolling purposes.

PC - "I have `15 Hits!"

GM - "I got 16."

Works for me

I gave up on myself to quickly

BBB pg. 158

Actually the BBB in SR4 does use the term "dog brain" (a rigger can issue orders to a drone and then trust its dogbrain to carry out the orders). Also, if an Agent had the *actual* Logic and Intuition attributes of a person, it would not be an Agent so much as an AI.

No, it functions as an order-able software, with equivalents to logic and intuition 6 for purposes of skill checks and the like.

Dog-brain is more of a name in the way it is used than a description. Probably just what drone pilots are called due to how stupid they used to be, not because they still are stupid.

I should have known better than to listen to some one telling me I was thinking of rules from an edition I have never read


@Tarantula. The matrix rules are made of liquid ambiguity. But I'm not going out on a limb when I say that dog-brain mean dog-brain, and "mental attribute" mean something very much like a mental attribute. Do you make people make logic rolls to understand orders issued between native speakers? Do riggers have to figure out what a the Sammie mean when he says "Ram that bitch!". If not then these riggers and agents have a different mentality and the meta is a hell of a lot smarter than the software. Yes you could read it your way, but you have really work at it. Work at hurting the game. IMO semi-autonomous decision making algorithms are not a logic stat. My side gets the fluff, and the mechanics. You get one possible read of the of the RAW with no corroboration and dumb results. What is your goal in maintaining your position?

Agents don't make logic rolls to understand orders. They make a Pilot roll. There is a difference. They make the pilot roll, because they need to be told what to do, and they will do it to the best of the abilities/understanding. Metahumans can decide what they are going to do, and thus, don't need comprehension rules, as they have free will, and can decide to follow, not follow, or interpret the "command" however they feel like.

The point is this. Having one hacker specialized in hacking is useful. Having 2 other team members generalized into hacking is not, because they will almost always be worse off than an agent for hacking. Whether that is for hacking into a facility, or defending the teams commlinks. Thusly, I don't consider matrix skills to be a necessary branch of secondary skills for members in a team.

You know what? As far as the targets are concerned, that looks exactly the same as someone slowly, methodically, leveling a firearm at them and then firing, taking slow aim with every single shot.

Unless it's caught on tape or someone witnesses the event in question, there's no way to know or care how quick on the draw someone was, whether he was shooting really fast with a single-action revolver or just blasting with a machine pistol, etc, etc, etc.