No Rhat... unlike you I'm well acquianted with the situation and not merely 'theory-crafting'. And then taking anything which isn't supremely powergamed as unacceptably weak. I'm also quite well known in local circles for being able to break anything and find all kinds of loopholes without resorting to trolling the boards. Quite frankly, I don't accept your 'expertise' because it flies directly in the face of my own actual IN-GAME experience.
I've actually used and played these things in real games, across every edition. With a combat mage adept no less... (focusing on the weakest spells in the game right now... so I could figure out the worth of combat magic... manabolt == 'thank you sir can I have another', lightning bolt = usable, fireball = awesome). All this in the 2 point background count that is Chicago.
Where's your playtest results? Have you actually put your ideas into work?
My results so far are good...
Priority A magic, B Attributes, C Human (edg 7 baby; which easily makes up for a weak skill on demand), D: skills, E: resources.
A mage doesn't need a ton of resources to work... 3-4k for a decent fake sin... a cheap commlink (remember your willpower replaces the device rating.. so wil6 does a lot). Some basic cheap guns and armor and you're ready to rumble... Even then... about the only thing 'hackable' on me is my laser sight accessories... on no... he bricked a snap on laser sight... I lost my +1 dice/+1 limit...
In 3 sessions I've gotten 20 karma I think... and about 30-40k in payouts and 'loot'. Yes a lot of that loot is going towards stuff like buying a magic lodge, a store of ritual materials, and the like to start... but now with that and a few extra spell formula out of the way. It's save for the force 3 power focus and between the cash <--> karma rules... this is easier to balance than you think. (that's using 6PP and 20 karma for focused concentration 5 right out the gate... they can't hit what they can't see with improved invis, or trid phantasm up screwing up LOS at force 5 with decent successes). Opposing mages... have to deal with my mana barriers protecting the gun bunnies or the force 12 fireball obliterating their position..
So far I've fealt no 'envy' for the mag 7 pure mage at all... he does his thing and I do mine... only difference is he can't dodge bullets worth a damn or get high initiative without sustaining penalties. His spirits are awesome and he does a bang-up job... but he also hides in the back and oftentimes has trouble seeing let alone hitting targets without 'geek the mage' coming into play. He also stacks up visibility penalties like no ones business because he can't augment his vision without taking implants.
Your entire argument rests on this assertion... that a 20-30karma 'head start' on the full mage... is an insurmountable advantage. And the hotpatch mystic adept is hopelessly outmatched by it. Just to give one example of how I'm not getting penalized like the full mage... I'm not taking visibility penalties (low-light and infra through those nifty .25PP adept powers). There goes those extra 3 dice of power focus right there... mentor spirit... if I wanted or felt I needed one I have the spare karma now to buy one (missions legit to buy more positive qualties at double cost).
Will I always be behind a pure mage who never moves out of that niche... yes. So much that I stand no chance against him... not on your life. The longer the game goes on and the higher the karma totals... the less that head start means as well... 100 vs 130 karma for example.
Again, all that is actual play experience... not board post min/max thearycrafting.
Full Version: Mystic Adept (another thread)
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jan 18 2014, 10:06 AM) 
DMiller:
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My ideal way to fix mystic adepts would be to split the magic attribute in two while still limiting total magic to {essence + initiations}. Then raise each one as normal using the stock 5x new rating attribute cost. Since the split attributes are so much lower than the combined one... it fixes the SR4a problem of stupidly high costs to advance a mystic adept in both halves... if so desired. While keeping one of the key balancing factors of the game, the increasing high costs to raise increasingly higher attributes intact.
Sam buys priority A magic... he puts 3 into Magic attribute and 3 into PP attribute. His total is still 6 equal to his essence... if he loses essence he loses a point of magic or PP his option. After initiating he has the option to raise either his Magic from 3->4 for 20karma as normal or his PP attribute. As compared to a straight mage who has 6 magic and needs 35karma for 6->7... this is a significant savings and allows him to advance at an equitable rate while still always being behind the pure mage in power.
Bill buys priority B magic... he puts all 4 points into magic expecting to raise his adept abilities later on. He pays 5 karma for the first PP to raise Power from 0->1 and 10more to raise it again later to raise it from 1->2. After this he needs to initiate to raise either his Magic or Power further (assuming no essence reductions).
That is probably how I'd work it... cap any adept powers bought at the Power-Magic rating... spells would use the Mystic-Magic rating as their dice/force caps. With the initiation PP instead of Metamgic option... such a character could easily keep himself going... unless he wanted to raise an adept power to a level above his Power rating... forcing him to raise it occassionally... But using metamagic -> PP... and buying Magic each time would raise his raw quantity of adept powers and magic rating at an equitable rate if he was willing to sacrifice a metamagic or two as a mage.
...
My ideal way to fix mystic adepts would be to split the magic attribute in two while still limiting total magic to {essence + initiations}. Then raise each one as normal using the stock 5x new rating attribute cost. Since the split attributes are so much lower than the combined one... it fixes the SR4a problem of stupidly high costs to advance a mystic adept in both halves... if so desired. While keeping one of the key balancing factors of the game, the increasing high costs to raise increasingly higher attributes intact.
Sam buys priority A magic... he puts 3 into Magic attribute and 3 into PP attribute. His total is still 6 equal to his essence... if he loses essence he loses a point of magic or PP his option. After initiating he has the option to raise either his Magic from 3->4 for 20karma as normal or his PP attribute. As compared to a straight mage who has 6 magic and needs 35karma for 6->7... this is a significant savings and allows him to advance at an equitable rate while still always being behind the pure mage in power.
Bill buys priority B magic... he puts all 4 points into magic expecting to raise his adept abilities later on. He pays 5 karma for the first PP to raise Power from 0->1 and 10more to raise it again later to raise it from 1->2. After this he needs to initiate to raise either his Magic or Power further (assuming no essence reductions).
That is probably how I'd work it... cap any adept powers bought at the Power-Magic rating... spells would use the Mystic-Magic rating as their dice/force caps. With the initiation PP instead of Metamgic option... such a character could easily keep himself going... unless he wanted to raise an adept power to a level above his Power rating... forcing him to raise it occassionally... But using metamagic -> PP... and buying Magic each time would raise his raw quantity of adept powers and magic rating at an equitable rate if he was willing to sacrifice a metamagic or two as a mage.
I do like this. I was attempting to keep the rules re-write similar to the existing SR5 stuff. But over all I do like you solution better. Right now our group has switched from SR4 to SR5 using the conversion document (mostly) and a lot of house rules (mostly to convert existing SR4 abilities/gear to SR5). We are running using the SR5 Hotpatch, not my re-write. I honestly don't even plan to suggest using my rewrite, I was doing this as more of a thought exercise. But I must admit I do really like your way.
Falconer: You haven't read the argument you claim to be addressing, clearly. Further, I'll not respond to attacks against my person rather than my position, as you've attempted to engage in.
In any case, you're talking about a combat mage when the subject is a dedicated mage. Big damn difference. Also, a decent fake SIN is 10k.
In any case, you're talking about a combat mage when the subject is a dedicated mage. Big damn difference. Also, a decent fake SIN is 10k.
QUOTE (RHat @ Jan 20 2014, 07:25 PM)
You can't use one problematic rule (which you acknowledge it to be with the "cheese" term) to justify another. And that character has only about 14000K left over for Nuyen, or only 4000 after a single high rating Fake SIN; if you don't have enough money left to buy the various things every character should have and the basics for your character type, then you're behind as it is.
Falconer: That method doesn't work, because it rests on intrinsically false assumptions. If you'd done more than skim the thread, you'd be aware of the previous discussions on the subject.
Falconer: That method doesn't work, because it rests on intrinsically false assumptions. If you'd done more than skim the thread, you'd be aware of the previous discussions on the subject.
I think you missed the point. Both focused concentration 2 or 3 suck both of them need reagent cheese to make it worthwhile. 3 is basically no better than 2 All it does is let you boost attributes that start at 3 instead of just 2(and yes 1 higher limit which is still a suck limit) woo effing hoo it really is not better by a meaningful amount, And no sorry 4,000 grand is all a mage needs so he isn't behind. armor jacket, crap comlink, low lifestyle done. Nothing else is needed. The mystake adept is not measurably behind the full mage 1 die and 1 point in focused concentration are totally minor. And as the game goes on that 1 die power focus edge will seem even more minor because eventually we will both upgrade and it will be to the same damn focus,.
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Jan 20 2014, 07:14 PM)
I think you missed the point. Both focused concentration 2 or 3 suck both of them need reagent cheese to make it worthwhile. 3 is basically no better than 2 All it does is let you boost attributes that start at 3 instead of just 2(and yes 1 higher limit which is still a suck limit) woo effing hoo it really is not better by a meaningful amount, And no sorry 4,000 grand is all a mage needs so he isn't behind. armor jacket, crap comlink, low lifestyle done. Nothing else is needed. The mystake adept is not measurably behind the full mage 1 die and 1 point in focused concentration are totally minor. And as the game goes on that 1 die power focus edge will seem even more minor because eventually we will both upgrade and it will be to the same damn focus,.
Unless, of course, you start looking outside of Health spells - remember, we're talking about a dedicated mage, not a combat mage. For things like Detection or Illusion spells, FC3 is a hell of a lot better than FC1. Of course you could build to have it higher - I generally don't see the value in pushing it out to the highest ranks as opposed to getting other qualities, though.
And realistically:
Fake SIN 4: 10000
Low Lifestyle: 2000
Armor Jacket: 1000
Vision/Audio gear: Easily a few thousand
Medkit: 1500
Along with various stim patches, a trauma patch or two, reagents, weapons and ammo...
QUOTE (RHat @ Jan 20 2014, 10:45 PM)
Unless, of course, you start looking outside of Health spells - remember, we're talking about a dedicated mage, not a combat mage. For things like Detection or Illusion spells, FC3 is a hell of a lot better than FC1. Of course you could build to have it higher - I generally don't see the value in pushing it out to the highest ranks as opposed to getting other qualities, though.
And realistically:
Fake SIN 4: 10000
Low Lifestyle: 2000
Armor Jacket: 1000
Vision/Audio gear: Easily a few thousand
Medkit: 1500
Along with various stim patches, a trauma patch or two, reagents, weapons and ammo...
And realistically:
Fake SIN 4: 10000
Low Lifestyle: 2000
Armor Jacket: 1000
Vision/Audio gear: Easily a few thousand
Medkit: 1500
Along with various stim patches, a trauma patch or two, reagents, weapons and ammo...
Um force 3 is totally worthless for detection and illusions spells, the range/resistance of them makes them no better than force 2 as they both will be resisted far too often to use. And you don't need most of that stuff out of the gate. With the limited nuyen needs of a mage, you can pick up contacts or whatever after the first run. Astral perception can easily carry you past there. In the end if you build a mystake pretty much just like you would a mage you are so marginally far behind the mage in magic it isn't notceable and you get a crap ton of adept powers on the side, and as you grow you can cherry pikc between power points or initiate powers.
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Jan 21 2014, 05:28 PM)
Um force 3 is totally worthless for detection and illusions spells
That's not at all true - in particular for extended range detection spells.
And no, there's just some stuff you shouldn't at all start without.
QUOTE (RHat @ Jan 21 2014, 05:49 PM)
And no, there's just some stuff you shouldn't at all start without.
That list will likely differ between individuals, though. Your list is likely not the same as my list, for instance. And my list changes depending upon character and concept. *shrug*
QUOTE (RHat @ Jan 21 2014, 07:49 PM)
That's not at all true - in particular for extended range detection spells.
And no, there's just some stuff you shouldn't at all start without.
And no, there's just some stuff you shouldn't at all start without.
since pretty much every detection spell worth a damn is resisted yeah force 3 is a waste of space. So while extended range detect enemies is sweet, since it is resisted with a cap of 3 hits its still a pile of suck. And even if it weren't if that is what you are hanging your hat on for why a pure mage is a better mage you already lost the argumentt. Soemthing that minor along with 1 die, just does not make you a better mage by any substantial level.
And other than a fake sin, comlink, armor and a place to stay nothing is needed to start. And even if it were some big edge that one mission runs worth of gear you have, that does not make them better at magic than a mystake, especially since some of it can be duplicated at a better level with physical adept powers. Contacts with vision enhancement or physical adept powers which I can cast through?
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Jan 22 2014, 03:59 PM)
since pretty much every detection spell worth a damn is resisted yeah force 3 is a waste of space. So while extended range detect enemies is sweet, since it is resisted with a cap of 3 hits its still a pile of suck. And even if it weren't if that is what you are hanging your hat on for why a pure mage is a better mage you already lost the argumentt. Soemthing that minor along with 1 die, just does not make you a better mage by any substantial level.
And other than a fake sin, comlink, armor and a place to stay nothing is needed to start. And even if it were some big edge that one mission runs worth of gear you have, that does not make them better at magic than a mystake, especially since some of it can be duplicated at a better level with physical adept powers. Contacts with vision enhancement or physical adept powers which I can cast through?
And other than a fake sin, comlink, armor and a place to stay nothing is needed to start. And even if it were some big edge that one mission runs worth of gear you have, that does not make them better at magic than a mystake, especially since some of it can be duplicated at a better level with physical adept powers. Contacts with vision enhancement or physical adept powers which I can cast through?
I, again, disagree that the gap would be only 1 die, because your Mystic Adept build builds on different assumptions - we're using different baselines for minimum nuyen expenditure, basically, so there's an error in the comparison. Given the baseline I was using in the build I presented, your build doesn't have enough nuyen. Were I using the baseline you were, I could shave a fair bit of Karma and change things up.
And resisted at threshold 3 is a damn sight better than resisted at threshold 2 - at average stats, the chance of the target making the roll is reduced to less than half. And for extended range spells, the range difference is substantial as well.
Force 3 Analyze truth can be pretty solid - not enough for an interrogation, sure, but pretty handy. Force 3 can be useful for a lot of utility spells in other schools, as well - Resist Pain, Physical Mask, and Levitate all being examples. It wouldn't suit all uses of the spell, perhaps, but it would be FAR from useless.
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