Second edition people he only needed 410 karma to hit 43 karma dice. oh the joys of being an metahumna in SRII

The joys were somewhat offset by having to pay Priority A for Race.

Ah, well. It was better than SR1, where you not only had to pay Priority A for Race, you got slapped with mandatory allergies, with extra bonus severity for trolls.

410, 820... doesn't matter. Both result in god-like beings.

Well, at the time we were doing 1/10 for everybody, so that was 420 karma (first ones free!). I think the final karma total may have been 46, but its been a few years since I've looked at it. It was 2ed when metahumans were Priority A, and people used the priority system, so the character would look a little different if he had been made and played in 3ed (esp since a lot of things reversed between the systems, costs for improving stats and skills, for instance).

As to the second point, had the group been stable and everyone progressed together, we would have had roughly similar karma totals, but that wasn't the way the breaks broke. For one thing, it seemed like the more powerful a character was, the quicker he died. Part of this was being targeted by the gm for being, well, a big target, and part of it was a Superman complex. Powerful characters tend to be confident, and in SR, there is a tendecy to win every fight but the last. I was always aware of my limitations, so I was always (or at least, usually) cautious, so I outlived a lot of "better" characters.

Lastly, I didn't play with one group, though the groups I did play with I did so fairly steadily for a few years at a time. There was a couple of one shots here and there, but the bulk of the time it was spent in two groups. Again, having a lower powered character worked in my favor, because where a GM would have serious reservations about letting a mage or a sam with 240 karma into a game, a private detective with no cyber or magic seemed almost tame, even compared to starting characters. (Which is why, for a long time, people thought I was a phys ad, even though I was mundane. Combat wise, I was about even with a starting, 2ed phys ad for the bulk of my career.)

Lastly (for real this time), I tend to be faithful to a character. When I find one I like, I play the hell out of it. Something I've noticed in SR, moreso than other systems, is people switch out a lot. I'll have one main character, and one back up (a necessity since it always seemed like there would be more than one game going in those days), and thats what I'd play. Everybody else would dabble in various concepts (or be forced to dabble when their beloved sam or mage got salsa'd).

Besides, all the bears are Piasma, all the Wolves are transformed mages, and all the Panthers are shapeshifters.

~J

And the guy who grew up in the cave is probably a vampire anyway (I mean, the cave will protect you from the sun, right?)

Hey...you guys have been reading my character sheet!

Coming soon to a cinema near you - Jungle Book 2064!

I wonder if Mowgli was a Way of the Hunter physad?

You're telling me that 1% of the population is hackers? Keep in mind, that's how "rare" magic is.

~J

When you figure in the value of the Spell Points (two, not just one... you have to buy the spell and bond the sustaining focus) and the price of the sustaining focus, the cost of Increase Reflexes +3 is not wildly out of line with the costs of cyber reflex enhancements... with the arguable exception of Boosted 3, every cyber reflex enhancer more expensive than Increase Reflexes is superior, and every one cheaper is inferior. Also keep in mind that it's basically the only reflex enhancement a mage can get without screwing himself, and that it's inferior to the high-end cyber enhancements that any serious speed sammy will have. Every combat mage I've ever played has had Increase Reflexes, and none of them have ever been the fastest PC in the group, either in average or theoretical max initiative. And, since it doesn't provide a Reaction bonus, it doesn't help in surprise situations at all (which is why Boosted 3 is arguable).

And I'm finding your repeated claim that mages have it easy because they only have one skill to raise laughable. Have you ever played a mage? They're the biggest Karma whores in the game! Raising Sorcery is competing for their precious Karma points with initiating, learning new spells, bonding foci, enchanting foci, Quickening spells, raising wards, etc., in addition to all the mundane things that they can do with their Karma. And, yes, that includes raising other skills than Sorcery... mages have Conjuring, Enchanting, Aura Reading, Centering and linked skills, Divination and linked skills, just for the purely magic skills, plus the usual assortment of mundane skills (usually, granted, a much smaller selection of them than mundanes have... but that's because they generally start with fewer Skill Points and have all those magic skills to spread them around in).

So, in reality you are basing your erroneous assumptions upon playing a single, half-gimped Magical character.

As (many) others here have asserted, Magic is not anywhere near as broken as you make it out to be.

So you've dumped a minimum of 45 points of Karma - enough to raise a high-end skill two or three points - into initiation, some unknown amount into learning new spells, but somehow it's the mundanes that get screwed because they have to spread their Karma around?

He probably never seen what a mundane can do with 100 karma. By the way, I've got a mundane PC in my gaming group that didn't break a sweat for SOTF, doesn't it mean that Magic is weak?

Toturi, did I read that right a little way's back? You make your Awakened characters roll for magic loss for Stun damage? Jesus H Christ on a pogo stick! Your reality is a harsh mystress.

"I cast improved reflexes 3."
"Sure you wanna do that? You're already lightly stunned."
"Gotta go gotta go."
"Roll. Ok, now for drain. Ugh, nasty roll. You take deadly stun and pass out."
"I'm toast."
"That's nothing. Roll for magic loss, bitch!"

Harsh.

Do you make people roll for limb loss on deadly stun as well? It would suck to get so drunk that your leg fell off.

Because of the way SR uses the word Wounds, I am merely pointing out that you may end up rolling for Magic loss or Permanent Damage for that matter.

As has been shown, having active spells can sometimes be a drawback. Whether it be from drawing attention in the Astral, to passing Wards (which are growing more and more common in the Sixth World).

Magic Loss and special types of healing are also a concern to the Awakened. Drugs and Chemicals and btls are more dangerous (IIRC).

Predjudice plays a part in people's response. Once a mage is spotted, he becomes an instant target above all others for the very reasons you list ... which all amount to fear.

Improved Invisibility 1 will not fool any sensors, as the Force must be 1/2 the OR of the device.

It is just your stubbornness that keeps you from seeing how wide-spread basic countermeasures to magic would be. Jerry Springer-style and Current Affair/60 Minutes-like trid-casts would be filled with fear-mongering and handy hints on how to thwart the sneaky mage. Some would be ineffective, but some would prove quite adequate and the knowledge would spread further. This is especially true in even the lowest-rated security company, and their employees would be made to study up on these tried-and-true-for-the-past-50-years countermeasures.

And on and on ...

As for making things tougher on those pesky troublesome spellcasters, just use the optional rules and don't divide the Force of the Spell in half when calculating Drain. This more than dampens the spirits of any spellslinger.

From the Official Shadowrun SR3 Core Book Errata ...

It's in the online Errata for SR3.

EDIT: Crap, Fortune beat me to it.

ah, but i don't think that applies here...

you use ORTs when dealing with spells that have variable target numbers. Imp Inv. has a set target number...

note that the Sorcery test says (pg 182)
"Other spells have specific target numbers..."

so, for a spell like Power Bolt, you would use the OR, for Analyze Device you would also use the OR, but for Imp. Inv, it has a set target number of 4, and nowhere in the description nor in the background for Illusion spells does it mention using OR...

however, the errata also states that
"If the observer generates equal or more successes in a Resistance Test, then the observer determines that the illusion is not real."

so, since the mage can only add spell pool dice up to the force of the spell, casting it at Force 1 would be risky, as that is only 2 dice and a Sensors 2 or above system would have a better shot at seeing the illusion for what it is...

It states nothing about a Target Number, It is a specific statement on the necessary Force of any given spell to affect any given object, if applicable. Of course this doesn't apply to spells like Entertanment or Heal, but it does apply to spells like Analyze Object, Powerbolt, Levitate, and Improved Invisibility. The Target Number in this instance is incidental if the device is immune to the magic due to its Object Resistance.

I normally play Shamanic characters. I'd love to have that ruling limited.

well, we'll have to agree to disagree on the interpretation of the rules - the way i read it, you have to take the whole paragraph into account.

"The base target number varies with the type and category of spell being cast. If the target is a living being...The target number for spells cast against inanimate objects is based on the material form from which the object is made...The Force of the spell must be equal to or greater than half the Object Resistance, rounded down, for it to affect an object. Vehicles add Body and half armor to object resistance before dividing in half."

The next paragraph reads:
"Other spells have specific target numbers, see the individual spell descriptions..."

The way I interpret this is that if the spell description lists a specific target number, then it falls under the latter paragraph - no need to worry about Object Resistance.

From a common sense standpoint, if you used Object Resistance, then all sensors are "Electronic Equipment" and would have a Target Number to cast the spell of 8, regardless of how powerful the sensors are - Rating 1 Sensors would be just as difficult as Rating 10 sensors. And if you consider that last sentence from the paragraph above, then you would ALWAYS need a Force 4 spell or higher to affect Sensors, once again, regardless of the Rating of the Sensors...

the problem here is that Invisibility, an Illusion spell, is not directly affecting the physical components of the sensor. In no way are the circuits, casing, or other components being manipulated or changed in any way. What the illusion is doing is changing the input, or target of the sensors - what they are seeing. If i show a camera a picture of a car, the person on the other end is going to still see a car. i'm not "reaching into" the camera and manipulating the circuitboard such that the camera "sees something else."

If you cast Power Bolt, then you are attempting to directly change or manipulate (ie damage) the components of the sensors. In this case, it DOESN'T matter if you have Sensors 1 or Sensors 10, because it is still a combination of plastic, silicon, etc that make up the device. In this case, you would need at least a Force 4 Power Bolt spell to affect the target, because lower Force spells cannot damage the device, much like firing a hold out pistol at an armored car just bounces off - the Force of the spell is similar to the Power rating of the attack.

That is how I have interpreted the rules - and I have outlined them here to explain my viewpoint. If you disagree, that's fine, I just wanted to let you know where I'm coming from...

As I've no doubt mentioned before, keep in mind that the absolute most Invisibility would do against Sensors would be to cancel out the -3 for having direct LOS, and even that makes negligible sense.

~J

I don't really see the section you quoted as being an either/or situation, although I can understand your reading it as such.

Either way, a case can be made either way for this spell then. When you cast Improved Invisibility, the subject is defined as the person upon whom the mage casts the spell. The target is defined as any applicable person or device within range normally capable of viewing the subject. Even though the spell does not change the circuits of the camera, it still targets said camera.

You didn't comment on my other post.

oh that...my bad...thinking about combat skills/pool...don't know why i was thinking that off the top of my head...

my biggest problem, as probably with many of you, is that after playing this game for so many years, since almost day 1 of 1st edition, that stuff becomes hazy - i mix/match 2nd and 3rd edition rules a lot, and even worse, for stuff that i've playtested/written in the past, i'll sometimes remember some rule that never made the final cut into printing...and swear up and down that this is how the rule is, only to discover later that i was remembering it wrong...

i don't mind people telling me i'm wrong, as long as a) they can back it up, and b) don't argue about it during a gaming session...

It's cool. I was just hoping you weren't using that rule interpretation for SRM.

My favorite rule was from the very first printing of SR(1), wherein the Target Number for resisting any Magic was the Mage's Sorcery (or Spellcasting), regardless of Force. Learn all spells at Force 1 and pump the hell out of the one skill and you are unstoppable.

(steps up to soapbox)

F**k mundanes. The rules aren't broken, magic is set up to beat normalicy; that's why it's magic. Invisibility rocks, most people know about it, and the hanging beads that were mentioned earlier are the smartest low-tec realistic solution I've ever heard.

(steps down from soapbox)

The thing that really makes me feel naked playing a mundane isn't spells or spirits, it is astral projection and perception.

The way most people play it a mundane pretty much has no defense at all against a magican flying by, spotting them from a large distance, and following them around for hours with no possibility of detection.

There are many possibilities to make this a more interesting situation:

Allow stealth to affect astral perception and searches, give a -2 on the open test to non-perceivers, and a -1 for people who can astrally perceive, but haven't done so in the past few seconds.

Make low essence reduce "astral signature". I think this was in sr2, but not in sr3. Basically the regular target number to see a person on astral was 10 - essence. Thus those souless cyborgs are actually harder to see. It was the only advantage of low essence, and it made a lot of sense. Use this also for a target number modifier for stealth tests. So a guy with near zero essence and lots of stealth is very hard to see from astral.

Create an adept power for astral stealth that basically works like camo.

Give mundanes some capability to detect an astral presence. Some low level psycic sense that can sort of generaly detect astral thingies sometimes without perceiving. Maybe an essence test vs 12 - the force, essence, or (masked)magic of the astral thing, and +4t# for mundanes +2 for magical people that can't perceive.