Simply adding attribute to matrix tests (mechanically) has that result. IC would be rolling Program + System* versus the hacker's Program + Attribute + Skill. So IC poses a hazard for human hackers (odds are he wins, yes, but it slows him down, and has the possibility of doing attrition damage), whereas a security spider would be rolling a dice pool that rivals that of the hackers.

Also by making a human's dice pool inherently bigger than a computer's allows non specialized hackers a chance at doing those same tasks: they're evenly matched with the computer, though no match for a spider.

*System really is the attribute for computers, not the skill. But it has the same effect: 3 numbers vs. 2.

It also means that attacking a Spider-protected system is basically impossible for Agents, which is a very desirable result (explains why the Matrix is stable at all.) I want Agents fairly dumb, mostly intended for drudge work. Compare to limiting Agent ratings to 3-4.

IC is a different beast; I like to think of it more as "ice" than as a matrix critter that leaps at you. IC is a mix of restrictions, line noise, instructions that try to mess up your system and so forth. It shouldn't feel like a person at all. If you encounter something nonhuman but person-like in the Matrix, that should be weird and scary.

IC, I think, needs to be redesigned from the ground up once sensible matrix rules can be agreed upon. The problem is there's no clear idea of what IC should be doing or how effective it should be.

I think that in a primarily spider-defended network, the job of IC is to act as scouts: finding intruders and reporting them. They should have little combat ability individually, but could either aid the spider, or pose a threat as a group (again, via Aid Another). They are, effectively, the Matrix's watcher spirits.

Black IC, OTOH, should be Fucking Scary (with a capital FS). Mainly because it jams your connection open. Even if you're not in VR and susceptible to the deadly biofeedback it sends your way, you are vulnerable to being Traced much more easily.

IC shouldn't simply be another word for "Agent," and agents/drones shouldn't be better than hackers/riggers (a rating 6 agent is ridiculously powerful). Agents and drones should be utterly dumb and able to follow a single instruction or two at best; maybe include rules for scripting that lets you organize a chain of events that they follow blindly. Right now they pretty much simulate real people, especially if you get the appropriate AR programs.

Anyway, IC should be something limited solely to nexi and other powerful networks that are beyond the reach of runners. They should be the programs that are borderline AIs (and what AIs evolve from for the most part), but only because they have the sheer strength of all that processing power to back them up, allowing them to come deathly close to the same competence of metahuman hackers. Every network shouldn't require an active spider 24/7 just to secure data; spiders should be limited to high profile targets instead. Having one or two on-site security hackers that the IC alerts is one thing, but a spider for everything worth hacking just to create even a mild challenge? Crazy.

Exactly. One or two security hackers (spiders) that the IC alerts, but who have other things that they do is about where I'd like to see things. You don't have a rigger jumped into a drone and a spider that the hacker faces, and one that takes over when one of the other two goes down and deadly IC.

One of the things that a wireless matrix needs to take advantage of, even more so than a wired network, is segregation of nodes. The matrix at large is entirely mesh based and all that, but any target worth hacking has 1 outside connection and is very segmented. Hacking that outside-connected node doesn't automatically give you access to everything that corp has. Instead what it gets you is an advantage when hitting the place in the meat. Or you can hack a different section for a different advantage (but you lose the first one*). Pay data could be found this way, but it'd be exceedingly risky.

This doesn't add in a matrix map either, at least not a full one. One that can easily be some jotted notes, "ok, so I can control the cameras, the turrets, the drones, or the door locks. But only one. I have the cameras now, is that good enough?" Having to switch nodes would be risky, but still doable.

*This is an advantage of the matrix: you can only realistically control one node. It means that an individual hacker can't do any real damage. It also means that if a virus gets in and takes it down the segmented nature of the network means it can be isolated, and there's very little capacity lost.

According to some of the threads I've seen on here lately, the idea that the Matrix is segmented is a somewhat controversial one.

If you're going to come up with a believable set of rules for the Matrix, your first and most important concern is summed up by a simple question: "Why hasn't the world's economy collapsed?"

If hacking is easy and all but completely risk-free, why would there be any value to any business conducted over the Matrix, or with computers at all? If you can hack yourself into getting free meals at McDougals without batting an eye, and large numbers of other people can do the same thing, how is McDougals staying in business at all? And hell, why would you stop at just getting a free meal when you drain their coffers dry with ease? And if a small fast-food joint isn't easy to hack into, how can you possibly hope to break into a system that actually does have hardcore security? And what about people who only have a credstick or their basic commlink 'protecting' all their resources?

There'd be absolutely no confidence in an economy based on that technology. And that's one of the really big problems with coming up with hacking rules. You have to find some kind of middle ground where it's both believable and fun to play. I have no idea how to even begin doing that, myself, which is one of the reasons I just try to ignore the Matrix as a criminal playground in my games. There's just no way such a system would exist if the basic security wasn't top notch and people felt at least marginally secure about their data.

It would have to be. Otherwise you could access any node from anywhere and that is a network security admin's nightmare.

Yeah, it's a tricky tightrope to balance on.

I mosty play the Matrix with RAW. A few interpretations here and there. But to protect the economy and keep some semblance of sanity I have learned to say No. PC want to hack a shadow bank and steal their money rather than do runs themselves? No. You cant the security is too powerful. End of discussion. If a mission gave you cause to hack a shadow Matrix site, then it would also provide a temporary one-shot back door access. The same applies to private individuals. See a rich guy and decide to syphon off some cred? No. Bank are also too secure. And they pass that security on to their clients. It helps keep them in business. It could be a data chip implanted in the owners commlink that is required to initate a tranaction or whatever. You CAN hack a bank, get access to accounts, files, balances, anything. Maybe even shuffle those around. But you wont be dragging out free money by the cart load.

While it does not address realism, quite the opposite really, saying no to excess is an easy way to keep the game going smoothly without tedious rules lawyering. It goes in the same category as forbidding a sociopathic PC from pulling out a gun and shooting another player in the back of the head for kicks. I veto game disrupting inter party drama that detracts from overall enjoyment of the group. 2 PCs trying to subtly kill eachother throughout the campain can be entertaining and great for RP. Random acts of violence just for the hell of it is not.

So use "No". It works.

We do use "no." "No Matrix."

It's a tool for communication, education, and relaxation. If something needs to be hacked, it's not going to be connected to the Matrix. You're going to have to get yourself past any physical security if you want a shot at it, be it through force or guile. And accessing/controlling it will be closer to breaking open and bypassing a maglock than the goofiness that Gibson concocted in our games. You know, more like real life. Instead, we just use AR and VR for, well... communication, education, and relaxation. And we use it often. No hacking required or even missed.

The game has plenty to offer without that niche, overcomplicated, and seldom-used aspect of the game. I'd rather just dismiss it all but entirely rather than cook up irrational excuse after irrational excuse just to make it kinda-sorta-almost work. It's just not worth the headaches. At all.

It means that the type of knowledge is based on memorizeable information, rather than applied aptitudes.

Let me explain this through the other attributes:
All other attributes are "active" attributes. That means they are nescessary biological functions to execute a particular skill. Body and Willpower are somewhat curious attributes in that regard, as they are passive, while contributing, but they are only relevant for 4 skills total anyway.
All the other skills require certain aptitudes. Social skills require charm and manipulation (Charisma), Combat skills require manual dexterity and speed (Agility), Physical skills require strength and endurance (Strength and Body), Driving skills and defensive skills require reaction speed (Reaction), Perception requires awareness and attention (Intuition)... Software and hacking require memorizing information for later use. They are less a utiliziation of aptitudes but more a utilization of learned information. That's why they don't benefit from your ability to memorize stuff, once you already learned it.

Obviously that's not the whole story. Brain power and therefore mental flexibility plays a role as well, especially when it comes to solving complex puzzles (exploiting your way into a software system comes to mind), but mental flexibility is but a small part of the Logic attribute. So would it really be fair to add the full attribute? Would it even be nescessary? Do Skill+Program not suffice? I think they do.


6-8 dice are the pool of a professional hacker. 9 dice is already way past average. Just because you (as you, the person, the player) want to have a shit ton of dice does not mean having that many dice is a good thing from a game design viewpoint. Let alone a balancing viewpoint.


In the entire game there is only one are, where your meat stats should not play a big role: the Matrix.


Decision making.

And, again, 2 alternate dice pool rules right there in the book if you want them.

I don't agree with Dr. Funkenstein that the solution is to explode the whole thing. Hacking is a lot of fun, and not nearly the 'pizza run' distraction it once was, either.

whenever I ran Sr, I effectively god rid of the matirx. I had one player back in the SR2 time who was a big fan of deckers, but given I did not want to run a multi-hour side quest for him I told him upfront it would be toned down a lot. Generally he hacked at terminals that the team got him to, he had to deal with a layer or two of ice and then he downloaded the files. No big matix crawl, he traveled with the team and hacked a terminal on site at the physical location of the terminal. Since I was upfront about it, he built combat deckers or in other words a decker with some ware to help him kill people and some decent combat skills.

SR4 has done that to some degree for me, but the rules are still a bit too much. It is too big of a subsystem with too many programs and actions which I don't want to learn much less deal with.

Flimsy argument and you know it. I could get an agent to do everything I need it to, which includes the "decision making" portion of the hack.

A hacker should not be a guy who sits behind a terminal and hits the "Go!" button.

Maybe I should not expect everyone to understand technical terms the way us psychologists do. Decision making is not just hitting a button. Decision making is a cognitive ability we don't even fully understand, yet, let alone are able to program. We might never be able to program it.
The main mathematical problem about decision making is abductive reasoning. How does it work? How do we form "hunches"? How do we come up with a hypothesis that we have no facts for? How do we achieve that first spark, that leads us to look for the facts?

Decision making includes (amongst other systems) deductive reasoning, inductive reasoning and abductive reasoning. The first two are easy tocode, as they are formal logic. The latter is impossible to express in formal logic and therefore impossible to express in machine code.

Long story short: machines are unable to utilize abductive reasoning. If a software could, they'd the be an AI. There is a reason why AIs in shadowrun can apply for citizenship in most civilized countries and abductive reasoning abilities are that reason.

How is this relevant to the topic?
Programs (Including Pilots/IC/Agents) can only work along the lines of their algorithms. If they encounter a problem they are not programmed to solve, they can't solve it. That's where your hacker comes in, solving exactly those kinds of problems.

Is that more understandable, now?

Mechanically by doing what?

Given the fact that such occasions would be extremely rare: nothing. That's why you CAN use agents/Pilots/IC in the first place. The main problem of your proposed fix is that yu make hackers even stronger than in the RAW. Where encryption was no problem before it would now be borderline obsolete. I just cannot see a viable justification to add Logic to the dice pool for hacking/programming tasks from a plausibility/real life viewpoint.
I get that you would like to have it more similar to the rules for all the rest in SR and I empathize with you, but from a purely rational point of view it is not a nescessity. The rules would not be simpler, the dice pools would be way overblown and hackers would become even more powerful than before. That cannot be the goal of a viable fix and it cannot be your goal, either.