SR4A p206, Detect Life. The range is only touch, but did you see the example next to it? If you're wondering what a group of people are and it turns out that they're a group of gangers (running and armed with weapons out) who are chasing your friend, well, wouldn't you just be able to see that with your eyes? The range of T just seems spectacularly useless.

Note that the 2 hits example says "Three male orcs and a female troll, coming your way" which you'd think you'd notice without having to cast the spell if it only has a range of touch.

IIRC, you have to touch the target who will gain the detection ability.

Ok, so presuming that the target is "you" each time, then the real area is still a circle with a radius equal to the spell’s Force in meters, right? That still seems really small, like you'd be able to tell who the people are just by looking at them.

If I remember correctly its force x magic rating.

Actually it's not just force, but if that's not enough take the Extended version. p.206 SR4A:



And even the shorter range version will pierce walls, so it can be effective in buildings.

I would also point out its a pretty easy way to beat invisibility or stealth too. Its hard to sneak up on someone who can sense the flow of your own personal lifeforce from possibly up to 250 meters away (extended spell force five times magic of five times ten)

Hard to sneak up, sure, but it should also be noted that this spell only reveals the number and location of the lifeforms in range. Maybe a generous GM would allow you to tell the difference between a stationary gnat and a stationary troll, but that's not how it is RAW. It also mentions that it's practically useless in a crowd, which should also apply to wooded areas and the like.

Even with the most punitive of views this spell is very useful, but with just a little too much leniency it'll beat Heal to the top of every sorceror's list.

No, it's closer to a Thermosense Organ (from Augmentation). It may let you know someone is there, but it doesn't "defeat" the effect. You still have a blind modifier if you try to attack them. They're just not guaranteed to go by unnoticed even if you fail your Opposed Rolls initially.

Have you seen the Detection spell result table, which uses Detect Life as an example?


1 hit gives you at least species, so you can in fact tell the difference between a troll and a gnat. 2 hits gives metatype and gender, 3 gives actions and things they're carrying that are obvious, 4 tells you everything as if you're seeing them with your own eyes.

The level of detail a detection spell is able to reveal depends on the number of spellcasting net hits (and since IIRC Detect Life is an active detection spell everything in range gets a resistance roll).
On a couple of hits I would give my players more information than just number and location. Lets say, "you detect 3 lifeforms, one is human-sized, the other two are smaller, maybe dogs or large cats".

Oh, and I'm pretty sure, by saying the spell is useless in a crowd, they mean it's useless in a crowd of equally sized lifeforms. It should be impossible to track the movement of a single ant in an anthill and it should be very hard to single out a human in a packed crowd, but it shouldn't be impossible to detect a barghest between the myriad of fleas in his fur...
Actually it should be harder to detect such small life forms anyway, since they don't 'stand out' so much from the constant background of living organisms that are almost allways around a caster.

-CJ

And by following this example the spell really gets out of hand.
I mean, why the hell should a Detect Life spell be able to tell you, the lifeform is carrying a rifle??? At 4 hits, this spell is better than a 360° clairvoyance...

-CJ

with enough hits you would know there is someone there and possibly abit more about them (type, rough direction, if injured that kinda stuff) Blind fire is still blind but a AOE indirect spell (like maybe a fireball) in the rough direction will still mess your day up.

True it could be over the top power if cast well but if handled like more magical information sources the GM can cover the bases and not let it get out of hand.
do wards block the effect though I'm not sure but gut instinct would say yes

I stand corrected.

Hmm, still think it's overpowered that way. Comparing to Detect Individual, for example, provided you have a strong DP you're only suffering an extra 1 on the drain for a vastly superior effect.

I'd certainly not allow the caster to know the subjects' professions (ganger in the example).

Yes they do. Resistance tests receive the force of the ward as a dice pool bonus. For spells without resistance rolls the threshold increases by 1 for every 3 points of force (round up).

Personally, I would interpret the 3-hits example as you knowing enough about body positioning to know they are holding stuff, and further that the way they are holding said items lets you know they are weapons. I.E. you do not sense the weapons but can tell that's what they must be holding given how there moving. Think about how distinctive holding a two-handed firearm looks even if the gun were to be digitally erased from the image. (or a customizable lead-figure, where you can tell what kind of weapon it is meant to hold, even though no weapon has been added yet.)

That's kind of the norm, though. Improved Invisibility is a vastly superior effect to Invisibility, but the drain is only one point worse. Likewise, Control Thoughts is vastly superior to Control Animal, but the drain is only one point worse. etc.

With everybody running around with radar sensors, it doesn't seem that bad. Of course, that has the downside of switching on your radar can easily invite incoming blind fire.

Want to have real fun? Try Detect Sensors. *thumbsup*

Yes, that could work. Although I still think that's a bit too much information coming from such a general spell as Detect Life...


Or you could combine Detect Life with Spatial Recognition. Now you have a completely magical "Radar sense"...

-CJ

That's not what they mean. They mean that you can detect them just as if they were standing in front of you in plain sight. When you see a giraffe, you know it's a giraffe. Not a vague lifeform with a squiggly shape and a long thingy on the top. If you can identify someone as a ganger just by looking at them, you can identify them as a ganger courtesy of that number of hits with the spell.

Detect Sensors is awesome. More given that eyes are sensors per RAW. *smiles* A fun one is detect space shows you spaces with in range and due to the fact it will show you the 3D none spaces in range as well as seeing though walls and showing you where the guards are and if they have their guns out ect.

Detect Space:
You don't sense any space. Its several miles "up."

Detect Air:
Oh hey! That's what you were thinking.

Well I meant spaces in general not just air. SO you'd see pipes and vacuums ect. I'm talking space in the those terms. Any thing not a liquid/solid.

So gasses. Ah la air.

Well, I take the point about the magician recognising the gangerness of the lifeform rather than the spell saying "there's a ganger over there", however ...

Maybe I've read too much into the spell description by assuming that the information provided on the life detected is aura-based, but to assume that the spell is somehow vision-related is a bit a leap, no? (Especially when it's an area sense, not a directional one).

As I 'see' it, and to take your example, I would recognise a giraffe with this spell because all giraffes are very similar to each other and very different from alternative lifeforms on a very fundamental level of biology/mana. I wouldn't learn that the giraffe was wearing a sandwich board advertising Seattle Zoo because that's nothing to do with detecting life.

Perhaps the developers did intend for this spell to be a super-clairvoyance, but if so it doesn't sit right with me. If it provides a visual impression of the lifeforms you detect do you see the scene as though there were no walls or your own skull in the way, or is it a roaming POV at your whim? Do you get colour? Thermo? Do you see all the lifeforms in range all at once? Can you hear what they sound like? Why not, since it's an area sense? You might only recognise someone by their voice. Should there be another spell for audio recognition? A third for olfactory? Boy, THAT could get unpleasant... Bear in mind this isn't a psychic sense so it's much more akin to a radar than a crystal ball.

That's all just facetiousness, of course, but with a point. The information provided by the Detect Life sense shouldn't be translating information it can't harvest into any of your mundane (or other magical) senses. It's an extra sense that works in its own way and unless Magic has the ability to tell the difference between someone you consider a ganger from someone you don't and this intention is programmed into the formula itself then the only way you're going to know that that pursuer is a ganger is either by recognising them personally (from aura readings provided by the spell) or by deductive reasoning using information from other sources (like the fact you're in the gang's territory and they don't like your friend much).

To surmise – I think the examples given in the table are out of line with the spell title, let alone the spell description, but as that's a deviation from RAW it remains my (as ever impeccably logical ) personal preference.

But the Giraffe knows it's carrying a sandwich board....

You're probably joking, but I'll assume not in case anyone else thinks it's worth discussion.

It knows it's got something on it's back (could be a saddle, could be a bomb), but even then how does that translate through Detect Life? There's little implication that you can see the scene but there's absolutely no indication you can read minds or even surface thoughts. You can't even do that from assensing auras, you just get the emotional status.

To the psychic sense of astral perception a Giraffe carrying a sandwich board can be distinguished from one that is not carrying a sandwich board without also psychicly perceiving the sandwich board itself. That's what 4 or 5 hits on assensing would do.

Why can't a magical Life Detection spell do it?

Detect Life has nothing to do with astral perception or even auras. It's literally a new sense, and your Spellcasting Test is taking place of the Perception Test. The more net hits you get, the more detail you perceive with that new sense. The spell also doesn't allow you to read things (such as the aforementioned sandwich board), but you can determine that they have one by the time you get to the 3 net hit range, just like you can tell someone has a weapon out.

Because it doesn't specifically state that the spell uses astral perception and the assensing skill or even hint at it*. It's a unique sense, distinct from astral perception, that detects life. The sandwich board wouldn't show up any more than the walls inbetween you and the giraffe would. If you ran it that the spell could pick up things like sandwich boards and clothing (and thereby let you 'see' that someone's clearly a ganger) then it should also tell you about all the walls, floors, tables, lamps, carpets, everything and what you're left with is a total-awareness spell rather than a particular form of the Detect Something template.

* My earlier mention about auras was that I assume that's where the spell gets its information from, but never meant to imply astral perception was occurring.

EDIT: PS - as previously mentioned, it's not a psychic spell in the technical sense

But HOW???

Or, more calmly and specifically, why is this spell so much more than detecting life? It seems to have evolved into detecting sandwich boards, small firearms and career choices (though the first one was a little bit my own fault, granted).

Ah, so I could tell a three spotted six toed giraffe from a two toed single spotted one, because they are both living, and the spell detects life, but not the sandwich board because it is not alive.

The same way that your Detect Sound Waves sense (ie, Hearing) lets you know if someone dropped a dish rather than shot a gun. You interpret the information you receive. The actual information doesn't tell you anything.

Yes, that's pretty much where I'm coming from.

Except that your hearing detects all sound waves and all sound waves are different. Detect Life doesn't detect everything for you to pick and choose from. It gives you the information to determine "that is an ork" but not "there is a gun in his hand" nor "he hangs out with the Rusted Stilettos" since neither of the latter two are anything to do with life in general or that particular lifeform as Magic would understand it. Perhaps that very last bit is a little assumption on my part but do you refute it?

I'd say you might be able to pick out he's holding a gun by virtue of perstioning. You might also see he's in a gang if he's with the gang the way they act together ect. You could say he's in X gang or its an SMG in one hand or a light pistol in one had with easy. Same with AR in two and a SMG in two.

Except that it does, by RAW. This is one of those things where you just have to sit back and say, "It's magic!" Seriously, it literally is magic.

So, based on those examples, this is the way I think detect life works. Each living being has an aura, this is what Detect Life detects. It doesn't assense or read the aura, it translates the aura into the visual image of the being. Certain accoutrements, such as clothing, are detected by Detect Life because the aura of the being bleeds through them (this is why you don't become immune to LOS spells by throwng a thin silk sheet over yourself) and Detect Life senses the change in your aura from the bleed and translates it into a visual image of clothing. Things the target is carrying, such as weapons, are not detected by Detect Life, but one can reasonbaly assume that a target is carrying something based on movements, so you could probably tell that someone is wielding a gripped weapon one handed with Detect Life, but determining whether or not it's a Gladius or a ladle is beyond you.

This is completely my opinion but it's an explanation that makes sense to me, make of it what you will.

Ok, your "Detect Sound Waves/hearing" allows you to interpret sound. But it shouldn't/doesn't allow you to interpret whether the dropped dish had a floral pattern on it. The book example for Detect Life leads a person to get very counterintuitive information. For example, I would not assume that getting 4 hits on a Detect Sensors necessarily tells you that the sensor feeds info to a machinegun or claymore...the spell detects sensors, not weapons. Detect Life tells about life, not jobs, weapons, or sandwich boards.

Ah but in Shadowrun Gangers are all street types. Street types are all unhealthy enough to be distinguishable from non-street types. We can tell that these street types are gangers and not just regular street folk, since they are scary enough to be chasing an armed troll.

So the spell just skips the GM giving a very detailed explanation of what the spell actually detects, and skips to what an actual denizen of the Sixth would would be able to figure out from context.

More circuitous logic available when needed

Detect Life doesnt' do anything about that, either. You're totally misunderstanding.

If you walk into an alley and see three people holding weapons up to someone threatening, it's a damn fair bet that you're looking at muggers. Depending on how they act and move, you could probably even determine that they're in a street gang if you're particularly familiar with life there. Thus, based purely upon looking at them, you can ascertain that they are, in fact, muggers and very likely gangers. Not because the light you're witnessing is interpreting the data for you, but because you are interpreting what your Detect Light sense is sensing.

The exact same thing is happening with the spell and the net hits on the Perception Test (which is exactly what the book calls the Spellcasting Test for Detection spells).

Now, now, play fair Ban. The debate long ago rose above RAW to the dizzying heights of conceptual congruency. The "It's just magic" approach is fine in and of itself, but not when matters of game balance and thematic continuity are afoot.

You're still avoiding my question Dr. F. When you recognise them as muggers it is because you can see their positions, their demeanor, what they are pointing and the threatening expressions on their faces. Of that Detect Life will tell you their positions and possibly a little more (depending on GM leniency) and from that you could identify the situation as a mugging. When you visually recognise them as gangers it is almost entirely by what they are wearing. This is something Detect Life does not tell you because it is not eyesight; it cannot see and it has no concept of photons that it must catch in order to give you what you would need to identify that they are wearing certain colours.

You're spot on about the medium itself not having any input on the information the viewer receives and interprets, it is just mechanical, but the information does need to be captured by the spell and for that to happen the spell needs to be designed to do so. By virtue of the title if nothing else it's not about physical appearance, trappings, intentions or past choices, it's about life forms and what and where they are. If it were to pick up any non-biological information it must have been specifically intended to do so in which case it's got the wrong name and a thoroughly inadequate description.

You might be able to see what sate that life is in and if you reconise it in some way. You can reconise your contact via the spell. Maybe there the local gang. Maybe you can tell they are struggling to make ends meet and are armed and hold a pose you know stinks of ganger.

What is the limit of information available to the Detect Life? Is the information available in that living thing that the spell is detecting?

Back to the Giraffe with the sandwich board! Granted Detect Life can't know about the sandwich board, is it possible the Giraffe knows it is carrying a sandwich board? If the living thing knows about it, it's affected by it, and thus containing the information, can the Detect Life Spell transfer or pass enough information along to allow the inference of the sandwich board? Isn't there something about that living thing that is different then some other living thing? If I can glean the quality of three versus six toes, why can't I glean it's tired of carrying that sandwich board?

If you hear me, are you just hearing my noise, or if I complain about the sandwich board I'm carrying are you learning that I am a giraffe or carrying a sandwich board?

When you see me, aren't you really seeing a reflection of the world around me?

lol, getting all deep on us DR?

Actually, I like this tack (which is not to say I agree ... yet). I think there is a lot of even-handed debate to be had on what form of information the spell reads. For example, my assumption is that this information is portrayed in mana, the language of Magic. Like with astral perception (but only like) the way mana interacts with the lifeform is highly indicative of many aspects of said lifeform and the spell detects this interaction, informing the character of the patterns which he recognises for himself. With this model, you could then suppose (what with mana being a constant, I think ...) that the information originates at the genetic level since it is on this level that the mana flows interact with life.

Under that vision, I would say that the existence of the sandwich board would not be readable to the spell since auras do not convey conscious thought in any more detail than quite general emotional states.

You're astute to note that the information is there in the target's very being, buried in brain cell configurations presumably, and if Detect Life were to be able to ascertain data external to the target's being then reading it in his grey matter would make sense where the astral cctv notion does not. However, not only would that mean that all your information is biased (the giraffe might have completely the wrong idea about that sandwich board) but it wipes out another swathe of spells (the mind readers) as Detect Life takes another giant leap towards being THE detection spell.

Between those two replies, I'd like to point out that IF you're using the custom spell rules in Street Magic, you can save two drain by tacking on a 'caster only' limiter to the spell. Sure, you can't feel up a party member to give them a mana-dar of some sort, but hey, two drain.

.... of course, if you're willing to bump the drain up by two, there are some amusing applications for changing various Detect Xyz spells from Touch to LOS. A mage could give anyone they could see a force 1(which needs 4 hits on a perception test to spot the casting) Detect X(Enemies, Life, Spirits, Singles, Idiots, non-humans - the list goes on) and watch them tweak. Or a wizard hooked up to a Mage Sight Security System(arsenal) could use the same trick and some custom formulae to buff, heal and reinforce security personell on the fly. Just something to think about.

Edit: Bah. Stupid doublepost. Sorry

5 hits. 6 - Force.