Just for fun and to divert attention away from the [select one] : (personal attacks/report violation spam).

I am sick of it all. I stopped reading about the whole damn thing about a couple of thousand posts ago.

Sad to see you sick of Shadowrun, Peter.

BlueMax
/misinterpreting things on purpose for years and years

Seriously, would you stop starting topics about this shit this is your second stupid topic and poll.

Interesting, but also expected.

I am inclined to agree. It would be one thing if people just voted and expressed their opinion of the poll topic, but these tend to turn into bloody flame frenzies. So how about we try answering the poll without snide comments, everyone?

Not of the game, particularly when a little humour gets injected, thanks. Just the opinion-flame-opinion-argumentfromnowhere-ad infinitum.

Imagine what it would be like if as much energy went into keeping DS online games going as goes into 'the thread that won't die'.

This would be an awesome thing. Albeit, about as likely as unicorns and gold at the end of rainbows to exist. Hence the need to ask people to play nice for everything containing 'CGL' in it these days...

I commented in thread N
"If we put this much effort into Community generated modules, we would choke on the amount of content."

And then I remembered that I still haven't found an editor/reviewer for mine...

BlueMax

Perhaps now that I have been given the reigns to DDH and am getting it underway after a long term in limbo, we can get some good fan-made content out into the eyes of the public.

One thing I do lament about SRM being corporate backed, and may really lament depending on what happens in the next three weeks, is that if we jsut pared things down to a text and tables format, maps and visual aides when we could get them, we could release things a lot faster. They wouldn't be as slick a product, but a usable product in hand beats an unusable one in the works IMHO.

Well, now I know who signed CT on the Facebook page.

BlueMax
/"Live and learn, or you don't live long"
//Lazurus Long

The discussion is tired and the outcome is out of our hands. Meh, I say... Meh...

I just care about Shadowrun and that the license survives and that the game continues. CGL, another company.. As long as it maintains its current or a past system and remains mostly Shadowrun then I am just fine...

If not, I will stay with the edition that I like and feel free to then start to change things as I see Shadowrun.. New editions that suck are not fun and will be ignored. I have plenty of good Shadowrun books from past editions, why should I buy some shitty 5th edition with some major rules change... Don't think people realize that this could happen if the game goes to another company. Nice new 5th edition that totally SUCKS!

snarky: /adjective/ the classic definition is that of a colloquialism to mean short-tempered, snappish, or irritable.

In all seriousness, if this troubles you, just don't read it. Dr. Funkenstein's signature has a viable solution. (The former, not the later.)

Not sure what the desired response to this modpost is. Are you telling me not to start anymore polls or telling Lurker not to flame bait?

If it's the first, just delete this thread and I'll never start another poll. No harm, no foul. As for flame frenzies, I think the only other pool I started was rather civil. It ran four pages, featured a cameo from Tom Dowd, and I learned a lot more than I did previously about the gaming industry. Bull, Adam Jury, and TD all taught things I was not aware of.

Compared to the blatant ToS violations that are constantly running the CGL Speculation #N, I thought it would be nice to give people a chance to, as you say,vote, express their opinion, and move on. If the mods want to keep the topic confined to CGL Speculation #N: no big deal, just let me know, delete the thread, and I'll return to reading other's flame wars in CGL Thread #N.

If the modpost was in response to Lurker, uh, sorry for the meandering stream of consciousness.

I think it was actually multi-directional.

Not to speak for Chrome, but my read was:

A) Starting up yet another poll really serves no purpose other than to sew the seeds of yet more arguments about a topic we (As in the mods, not me) are trying to keep as contained to a single thread as possible.

B) Don't post snide/snarky comments in reply to this poll, so we don't end up with yet another flame fest.

<shrug> I kind of agree with both. I saw the thread and just kinda rolled me eyes and sighed. The poll serves no real function, and at this point it's safe to say we know more or less where everyone stands. And as I've said about several of the threads that have cropped up here: "It will only end in blood, flames, and tears".

Bull

Sounds fantastic! I'd gladly trade every thread ever started on these forums for DDH.

Fair enough. Again, delete the thread if it runs contrary to mod plans/intentions. Won't hurt my feelings either way. On the plus side, I would point out that this pool generated over 200 views in under two hours. On the con side, I totally understand the desire to keep this contained to a single thread.

[EDIT:] and at this point it's safe to say we know more or less where everyone stands
The vocal majority has absolutely made their opinions known. I'm curious about the majority that haven't voiced an opinion yet. [shamelessly steels Bull's action-context-thingy:] <shrugs> either way

Just let me know...

I had no opinion on CGL but now I have a bad one. (for not paying freelancers or paying them so late)
My opinion on the product was mixed, it was an improvement over Fanpro in quality of art & writing however the rule changes from 4e to 4eA are unnecessary and don't IMHO improve anything. They had a real shot and changing the Matrix and they didn't do it. This is part company, part freelancers, part developers but the move from Fanpro->CGL I see an improvement in the look and physical quality of the books a mixed bag on the fluff and no improvements mechanically. Love or hate 4e Fanpro did significant rule and fluff changes I don't see that happening with CGL and I believe a good chunk of the freelancers have not changed so I blame the company.

Too few data points to be sure at the moment, but I'm willing to bet my lunch on the idea that the silent majority is gonna be answering no change or who the hell cares.

You don't really leave much room for people to have an opinion on precisely one of either the company or the product (the only really substantial thing I know about CGL is one game it makes, and it seems a little harsh to condemn it simply based on that).

~J

Here's the big question, to my mind (and if you don't get shut down, and you decide to do a follow up... )

1) If IMR/CGL retains the license, will you:

1A) Continue to support SHadowrun regardless.
1B) Only continue to support Shadowrun if the positive changes that Randall has said are being made, are actually made.
1C) Discontinue your support for Shadowrun so long as CGL has the license?

THat, to my mind, is the only real poll question worth asking right now. And I suspect that 1A is the majority answer, with 1B having a decent showing. THere will be a few that will vote 1C, and it would be interesting (though impossible) to verify 6 months or a year down the road if they stuck with this or gave in. After all, there's a few "I'll support 4th edition over my dead body" folks who gave in after a while. (and, to be fair, a few that haven't, and that's cool too)

Bull

Despite my own allegiances, for various reasons, I voted "Who the fuck cares?" because, frankly, that's my stance. At the end of the day, I'm following Shadowrun, whether it's with CGL or anywhere else. Hell, if something happened and Frank Trollman got the license and made 5th edition, I'd probably STILL buy it. So long as the game remains more or less intact, the owners don't matter. The writers don't matter. The game is what matters.

Okay, clarification. The poll is not my problem, I just see it as an avenue for people to start throwing defamations. I personally am intrigued at how people will answer and want to see the numbers. I just do not want to deal with another thread full of flames because of random posts due to differing responses to the poll or whatever. I can see some side comments sparking the same thing we are trying to fight down elsewhere in the forums. That is all.

So, in a nutshell, I support the poll but do not want any little flames sprouting as a result. We are getting enough of those in the flame-catcher that is "The hidden dark rumors behind CGL and its alleged alien demon drop bear overlords Volume 7"

And see, that's why I love dumpshock. Back to back laugh out loud posts from moderators. [EDIT: Frank's 5th ed and the alien drop bear overlords]

@ Bull: I'd be happy to run another poll, or alternatively, you could start one. You, obviously, have much more hand than I do. (In the Seinfeld sense, that is...)

Same here. I do not care. They know that this is a big transgression. They know that their fans are angry and/or concerned. I support the game. I have supported the game since release day of SR1. If CGL has the license, I will support CGL. If it gets sold off to some other game maker, I will support it there (within reason, dramatic changes to the game might change that). If it fell off the face of the planet and disappeared into gaming limbo and nobody develops it, I would still support the game. Some of the best material I have seen for Shadowrun is fan-made material from back when I ran my own site. I like the comment made earlier that if people were able to redirect all of this energy being spent on arguing superfluously in the flame-threads into actually creating something for the game, we would be much better off.

Nonononono. I want to see how the numbers work out on this one. Seriously. I want to see what is on everyone's mind.

LOL. I promise to wait and PM Chrome Tiger prior starting any more polls. Sorry!

I wish I could say that. I've decided that, with everything that's come out in the past few weeks, I can't support the game until we see a regime change. I just can't justify providing an income to the (few) individuals that drove a profitable game, that I love, to this desperate point (or those that knowingly allowed them to). I hate that it's come to that point for me, but there it is.

I love Shadowrun. I will no longer support CGL. Luckily I have enough material to go quite a while before I have to consider compromising my decision.

I do not think I'll support Shadowrun under CGL.

During the waning days/months/years of 3rd Ed I stopped buying books despite my weekly campaign going on. I had all the core stuff already, and what came out simply did not seem to be needed for my game. Dot6W, Threats 2, up to Emergence. I bought the 4E sore book, but we kept playing 3E for two more years before switching the campaign over, at which point I started to buy the additional core books. So, I do not think I need any new books in the first place.

I'd support a new company because I like to support the game, and would buy stuff I did not really need just so Shadowrun keeps getting published, but I strongly dislike what we know of CGL's business practises, and I do not want to support such practises.

*ahem*

Always ready for properly written up Shadowrun material. So long as it's not "here's my GMPC, he has 12 Str" or "this grey box is an office complex, you could have a run there", then I'm interested. I get a lot of visits and there's as much bandwidth as you could wish for.

If you've got something worth sharing, send it. I'm even willing to do light editing and layout duties. I like Shadowrun.

Khadim.

1B but I have to believe the changes have been made or it becomes 1C. Convincing me MAY be harder than actually doing the changes at this point unless I see AH and others I respect writing again.

I have been a 4e buyer but not player so not buying books has no impact on my gaming. The one way 1A can happen is if they keep released older pdfs. I'm also really enjoying reading Eclipse Phase and entertaining the idea of moving on from Shadowrun for good. To what I'm not sure but Mutants and Masterminds and nWOD have both pulled me away from Shadowrun in the past after everyone was playing 3e so it could happen again.

I just ordered Vice and Running wild last week and picked up 10 gangs from battleshop so I guess that makes me a 1A.

I fell in love with SR in 90 and never looked back.Its an awesome game no matter what the incarnation IMHO. As for the whole "scandal" situation, well, i'm a business owner so my take on it is probably a little different than some. You make good and bad decisions and learn from them. Hell, I pulled money out of our sales tax account several months ago and had it bite me in the ass at the end of the quarter. You learn, you grow, or you die. I can't really get upset at IMR/CGL for making mistakes as my personal peeve is hypocrisy.

anyhoo, on an off topic and happier note I believe I have the wife talked into naming our next child Rowan Dropbear( I ain't kiddin'!) Spirits bless all role-playing spouses everywhere!

Well all the business changes in the world may not get Jason and Bobby playing hopscotch together again.

Yep. Which leads me to a question: I've written adventures (and even sourcebooks) for my group that I'd love to share with the public but I'm terrified of getting hit with a cease-and-desist by Topps. Would anyone like to share the "rules" of producing unauthorized fan-made material? The only ones I'm aware of are:

a) No using copyrighted artwork.
b) No copy and paste of text from licensed materials (ex: don't CTRL+C / CTRL+V the rules for burst fire weapons [though I could be wrong]).
c) No $$$ transactions for the work you create.

Anything else?

Those are some generally safe guidelines to go by. Topps has never been aggressive about shutting down fan material (nor was FASA), so as long as you follow those guidelines you just mentioned, you should be pretty safe.

And I agree that I'd love to see more fan-made material right now. I'm working on some things myself (and I'm not the only one).

DDH? Sorry if that seems very noobish, but ... DDH?


1A. I am buying the translated German books anyway, mostly because they're all well-bound hardcovers and not ill-bound softcovers that disintegrate if you *think* of opening them, but also because the translations are bearable for the most parts (this excludes the 'mancers section of Unwired - kraenzchen, really, what, if anything, were they thinking) and often as not, Errata are already included into the product.

I am certain Topps will, should CGL retain the license, have a vested interest in that what happens will be 1B.


FWIW, I am working on an expanded Venice sourcebooklet of sorts for personal use based on the Shadows of Europe artice but adding a lot more info. I haven't directly copied stuff from SoE but, as I try to keep it close to what was published in SoE, it WILL cover most of what was in these two-and-a-half pages, just littered throughout 20, maybe 25. Not in their words, but in my own, but with basically the same content.

Would that be fit for internet publication under the above mentioned guidelines?

Bah, no need to feel noobish. It is a fanzine that was created last year but due to real life snafus and scheduling conflicts, never went anywhere. All fan-submitted art and articles. Initially shooting for a bi-monthly release in PDF format. For the most part, it has been under the radar the past few months.

Oh, cool. Were there any issues published yet?

I might also want to publish some stuff with you, gotta see if I can work through translating it.

Not yet. That is what I am in the process of doing. I should post up an update thread so I am not thread-jacking.

You're a moderator, you can do anything you want. But, as starter of the thread, I bless any DDH discussion of any kind because I really, really want to see it.

If IMR / CGL retains the license I have already told Jason that I will not be buying anymore products for the foreseeable future. However, this has nothing to do with their financial crisis are the big threads that I really gave up on month ago. Instead, I will no longer support a company with the customer service that I've received from CGL; and yes I'm speaking about the entire LE fiasco. If a company thinks that giving me $10 off of some product is going to help they are fooling themselves. Since $10 is nothing more than a discount it's useless; I will not give them more of my money when they still haven't delivered on my last order. The lack of communication throughout the process, and the lack of responses to emails and trouble tickets trying to get my address updated all just adds to it.

Unless there is a dramatic shift in the way deal with customers they have chased me off. This poll does have merit for me since my stance has nothing to do with the way they've treated their business partners.