Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Drake magicians/adepts/mystic adepts
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2
Tanegar
A drake starts with a Magic attribute of 1, per Runner's Companion, p. 76. A magician, adept, or mystic adept likewise starts with a Magic attribute of 1, per SR4A, pgs. 90 (Adept quality), 91 (Magician quality), and 92 (Mystic Adept quality). Are these points additive, i.e., if I make a drake mystic adept, does his Magic start at 1 or 2?
Xahn Borealis
While we're asking about drakes, can they SURGE? As in, take the Changeling Quality?
Rasumichin
QUOTE (Xahn Borealis @ May 4 2010, 08:29 PM) *
While we're asking about drakes, can they SURGE? As in, take the Changeling Quality?


Yes, SURGE is available to all races in SR4.

Regarding OP's question, there's no clear ruling i can recall anywhere.
Xahn Borealis
Seems unlikely though.
Rasumichin
QUOTE (Xahn Borealis @ May 4 2010, 08:36 PM) *
Seems unlikely though.


I'd say so, too.

BTW, one would also have to decide whether SURGE traits for drakes (and shifters) apply in both forms or just in one.
I don't have a clear ruling on this and would decide on a case-to-case basis with the player.
Banaticus
You choose your race, then qualities. Race (drake) gives 1 magic. Does the magician quality give an additional magic point or does it just set your magic at 1?
Yerameyahu
If it seems too good to be true, it probably is. That said, try to slip it past you GM as an 'honest mistake'. biggrin.gif
LowBeyonder
I don't think there's a clear RAW take on it, but if I were GMing, I'd say sure. Dracoform is hella expensive and starting mages/etc. are already strapped for BP; I don't think this is out of line or likely to cause any balance situations, and it's a decent theme perk.

I'd still restrict maximum Magic (pre-Initiation) to 6.
Brazilian_Shinobi
When I had made a shapeshifter character, I had assume that you would have Magic 1 no matter what Awakened quality you chose. Just my 2 nuyen.gif
HappyDaze
If they both give you a 1, then you have a 1. Neither says 'increase/raise by 1' or anything similar. Both just give you the freaking 1 which is the minimum baseline for being awakened, and if you already have that by dipping in somewhere else, then you don't gain anything to Magic.
Banaticus
That is true, Brazilian_Shinob..., RC explicitly says that you have Magic 1 and can do some things with it, but can't summon spirits, etc., without the proper quality. We're discussing what happens when you do have that quality.
Yerameyahu
It's pretty clearly 'Magic = 1' by RAW. I might try and convince my GM to let me cheat on a Drake Adept, though. biggrin.gif
FlakJacket
Well I could see an argument that if you're paying the build points for both qualities you should get the full benefits from both qualities. However with the latent dracomorphis quality it says you gain a magic attribute of 1 when you undergo dracomorphis or keep the magic attribute they already have if they're awakened, so I think that pretty much rules out the idea of double stacking them for a starting magic attribute of 2. In the end it just comes down to what you can talk your GM into. smile.gif
Yerameyahu
Edit: Bleh, nevermind. I'd read the answer to my question, then forgotten it. biggrin.gif

I had another question, though: Mystic Armor 4 + Hardened Armor 4 = 4/4 physical, 8/8 astral, with the first 4 as 'hardened'? Seems like an awfully soft target without an Armor spell or Adept Power.
LurkerOutThere
By the rules your magic rating is one, as a kind GM I would not find a starting magic of 2 out of line for the amounts of points expended.
darthmord
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ May 5 2010, 08:23 AM) *
By the rules your magic rating is one, as a kind GM I would not find a starting magic of 2 out of line for the amounts of points expended.


This is how I would rule it myself. Both qualities comes with a Magic 1. Seems rather unfair to penalize someone who has both qualities by only allowing Magic 1 while paying full price for both qualities.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ May 5 2010, 12:10 AM) *
I had another question, though: Mystic Armor 4 + Hardened Armor 4 = 4/4 physical, 8/8 astral, with the first 4 as 'hardened'? Seems like an awfully soft target without an Armor spell or Adept Power.


Mystic Armor Critter Power is not the Mystic Armor Adept Power.

The Mystic Armor critter power only grants you armor on the astral plane. Hardened armor makes it hardened astral armor.

And yes, 4/4 armor is not very much. This is why my current drake character does not have armor.

Sounds like a contradiction, yes? But see, I want to be in drake form as much as possible so having 4/4 armor more than human form is a bonus.

QUOTE (darthmord @ May 5 2010, 09:11 AM) *
This is how I would rule it myself. Both qualities comes with a Magic 1. Seems rather unfair to penalize someone who has both qualities by only allowing Magic 1 while paying full price for both qualities.


Your "saving" 10 BP. That's it. Admittedly if you're playing a drake 10 BP goes a long freaking way, but in the grand scheme of things, its still 10 BP, its 2.5% of your total build.
Levithix
Of course, taking mage/adept/mistic adept with drake does give the advantage of increasing magic for both.
Would a drake without one of them be any good?
On a related note; I'm making a troll drake prime runner with 600 bp and a small amount of karma (about 50)
Any advice on adept powers?
Yerameyahu
I know that the Mystic Armors aren't the same, which is why I said 8/8 Astral, not Physical. Does Hardened Armor not actually give armor, though, just hardens what's already there? It ambiguously worded.
Neraph
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ May 5 2010, 10:05 AM) *
I know that the Mystic Armors aren't the same, which is why I said 8/8 Astral, not Physical. Does Hardened Armor not actually give armor, though, just hardens what's already there? It ambiguously worded.

Hardened armor is armor in and of itself, on the Physical plane, which is why it's a Physical Power. Physical Powers do not function at all on the Astral. Therefore, you do not gain your Hardened Armor on the Astral plane.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Neraph @ May 5 2010, 11:28 AM) *
Hardened armor is armor in and of itself, on the Physical plane, which is why it's a Physical Power. Physical Powers do not function at all on the Astral. Therefore, you do not gain your Hardened Armor on the Astral plane.


Actually you do, in a way. If you have Hardened Armor (critter power) any astral armor you already have "becomes hardened." So you get a hardened 4/4 in the physical and astral.
Yerameyahu
Make up your minds, guys. smile.gif The book says that if you have astral armor, Hardened Armor hardens it. Does that mean it's 4/4 (Hardened) Astral?

Anyway, why did they bother? A drake can't wear armor, so they're running around with 4/4 Hardened… I guess it keeps them from stubbing their dragon toes, but nothing else. I'll have to invest in the Adept Mystic Armor.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ May 5 2010, 11:41 AM) *
Make up your minds, guys. smile.gif The book says that if you have astral armor, Hardened Armor hardens it. Does that mean it's 4/4 (Hardened) Astral?


Correct, its 4/4 Hardened Astral Armor, not 8/8 Hardened Astral Armor.

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ May 5 2010, 11:05 AM) *
I know that the Mystic Armors aren't the same, which is why I said 8/8 Astral, not Physical.


QUOTE
Anyway, why did they bother? A drake can't wear armor, so they're running around with 4/4 Hardened… I guess it keeps them from stubbing their dragon toes, but nothing else. I'll have to invest in the Adept Mystic Armor.


Pretty much. You can take punches from unaugmented, mundane metahumans.* But any unaugmented mundane would be a moron to engage in melee with a dragon (even a small one).

*4 damage tops, ignored outright. -1 net hit leaves 3, which is achieved by strength 6. Without a melee weapon, that's the best a human could ever achieve, and is around average for orcs and trolls, IIRC.
Neraph
QUOTE (Draco18s @ May 5 2010, 09:51 AM) *
Correct, its 4/4 Hardened Astral Armor, not 8/8 Hardened Astral Armor.

That's what I was meaning.
Yerameyahu
I guess that explains why they're rare: anyone with a gun means drake stew. smile.gif
Tanegar
If you can get armor sized for a troll, you should be able to get it for a drake. If your character is an Oriental drake, he'll even be able to put it on and take it off without help.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Tanegar @ May 5 2010, 12:48 PM) *
If you can get armor sized for a troll, you should be able to get it for a drake. If your character is an Oriental drake, he'll even be able to put it on and take it off without help.


The problem is the shape. Dragons have a vastly different bone structure.

I don't think even troll armor would fit this guy: http://www.freewebs.com/wolvesofleavesands.../spirited38.jpg
Yerameyahu
Well, I assume you can custom make *anything*, but the whole point is shifting. You want to be able to swap forms, even if you're an Eastern Drake. That leaves Adept and/or Mage armor effects, yeah?

At this point, I'm asking selfishly, because a Drake Adept (or mysad) sounds like it might be fun. No BP for skills, but fun. smile.gif
Draco18s
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ May 5 2010, 12:59 PM) *
At this point, I'm asking selfishly, because a Drake Adept (or mysad) sounds like it might be fun. No BP for skills, but fun. smile.gif


Had the former, and was going for a "no body knows" thing, then SURPRISE! (The players all knew of course). But it was always a disadvantage to shift, because I got very very few advantages for doing so. +2 agility (yay more dakka!), enhanced senses (woo?), flight (amazing, maybe), capability, if not skill, to fight astral critters (yay)? at the expense of 6/4 armor (10/8 down to 4/4), the fact that I get seen, can't talk...yeah, it just wasn't a good idea.

Have the latter now, no armor spell or power, but I wasn't making a combat character, I was making an infiltrator. I find the character tons of fun. Got myself shot and pounced on by an awakened kangaroo in the same session. My character isn't Street Smart: combat is something that happens to other people. "Eh, dead bodies. There was a fight here, well the AI did go crazy and take over the whole archology...there's not going to be anyone left."

Latter is also an Elf (former was human) with SURGE I. 150 BP on stats, 88 on skills, 60 BP on special attributes, 0 on Knowledge, 0 on contacts, 95 on race, net -10 on qualities, and 9ish on cash/quipment.

Edit:
I have a semi-idealized version of my current character--made for some GM's request for characters thread--here:
http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~mmj29/temp/DrakeInfiltrator.xls
Neraph
Here's something I cooked up:

[ Spoiler ]


I designed him to be effective and dangerous in drake form, specializing in unarmed attacks and using his breath weapon as his ranged attack.
Draco18s
Nasty. Personally I'd drop a few more ranks into the breath, as it is effective anywhere in LOS and melee is generally hard to get into.

I would also personally want more Edge.
Neraph
It was an excercise (man I can't remember how to spell that atm...), and I built it never actually playing one. And wanting to build a melee dude.

EDIT: Oh, and the setae hands were designed so he could fly and land on the sides of buildings. More thematic than actually hard useful.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Neraph @ May 5 2010, 01:36 PM) *
It was an excercise (man I can't remember how to spell that atm...), and I built it never actually playing one. And wanting to build a melee dude.


No worries, just quick look over and things that I personally do as a player. I don't have much luck myself, so I like having several points of Edge to avert failure.

QUOTE
EDIT: Oh, and the setae hands were designed so he could fly and land on the sides of buildings. More thematic than actually hard useful.


That's handy. wink.gif
Rasumichin
There's a few ways to armor a drake without having to resort to custom-made armor (which is still wort considering, in some cases you'll be able to stay in drake form all the time).

Besides spells and adept powers, these are Possession and various ways to gain natural armor, either by being a troll or by SURGEing.

In fact, drakes are the only characters where the Granite Shell subtype of Dermal Alteration is worth considering from a mechanical viewpoint.
Suddenly, your hardened armor goes up to 7/7, easily enough to shrug off small arms fire with a good Dodge pool.
Combine this with possession and your Force 5 spirit gives you a veritable 17/17 hardened armor, which means that without anti-tank weapons and the like, people are shit out of luck against you.
And it goes up from there.
Draco18s
That's certainly a possibility. It'll chew through BP like nobody's business though.

My first drake (the one who never transformed) got permission from the GM to commission custom armor that would shapechange along with him (basically a unique item) so I didn't have to strip naked, shift, and then re-equip. Game fell apart just as the item would have been completed.
Rasumichin
QUOTE (Draco18s @ May 5 2010, 07:50 PM) *
That's certainly a possibility. It'll chew through BP like nobody's business though.


The great thing about Possession traditions is that, with the right spirit selection, you can save a lot of BP on skills to make up for that.
With Task and Guardian spirits, Summoning can replace all Technical, Combat and Physical skills if you're fine with only indirectly having access to them.

It's an extreme choice, of course.
Either helpless human form or invincible spirit stone dragon.
Perfect concept for superhero or magical girl archetypes, but the drawbacks are nasty.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Rasumichin @ May 5 2010, 03:00 PM) *
The great thing about Possession traditions is that, with the right spirit selection, you can save a lot of BP on skills to make up for that.
With Task and Guardian spirits, Summoning can replace all Technical, Combat and Physical skills if you're fine with only indirectly having access to them.


Oh sure, I'm just saying that a Mage Troll Drake will be....60 + 10 + 40? 110 BP for base troll stats, no qualities, no skills and 1 magic.

QUOTE
It's an extreme choice, of course.
Either helpless human form or invincible spirit stone dragon.
Perfect concept for superhero or magical girl archetypes, but the drawbacks are nasty.


That it is, that it would be.
Yerameyahu
You forgot, Mage Troll Drake *Changeling*. smile.gif
Draco18s
Oh, right. wobble.gif

(Edit: Granite Shell would be +15 BP, which if you gained as SURGE you'd likely take SURGE II, take +10, -5 but spend 5 normal quality points extra to get Granite Shell, leaving you with 10 positive BP worth of qualities unused and a mere -5 negative SURGE quality (Extravagant Eyes, anyone?))
Neraph
Why Magician when you can Call?

EDIT: As in, stay (Mystic) Adept and ignore the Conjuring group, nab Arcana and Negotiation, and get better than Conjuring for much easier.
Yerameyahu
Psh, the point is that it's a horrific pile of races, mods, etc. biggrin.gif
Rasumichin
QUOTE (Neraph @ May 6 2010, 04:17 AM) *
Why Magician when you can Call?

EDIT: As in, stay (Mystic) Adept and ignore the Conjuring group, nab Arcana and Negotiation, and get better than Conjuring for much easier.


Calling is a great idea, but it's not nearly as reliable as conjuring.
The implications are rather scary if the GM plays the called entities according to their description.
I view it either as an addition to conjuring or as an option for delusional cultist NPCs.

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ May 6 2010, 05:29 AM) *
Psh, the point is that it's a horrific pile of races, mods, etc. biggrin.gif


Yes, that's the fun part about it. Troll could also be changed to fomori for maximum freak potential.
Who cares about 5BP more at this point?
Stingray
QUOTE (Rasumichin @ May 4 2010, 11:41 PM) *
I'd say so, too.

BTW, one would also have to decide whether SURGE traits for drakes (and shifters) apply in both forms or just in one.
I don't have a clear ruling on this and would decide on a case-to-case basis with the player.

What about Naga's? Surged Naga Adept Gunslinger.. ( w/shiva arms-metamenetic trait)
althought findind an suitable armor would be REALLY hard job.. biggrin.gif
Draco18s
QUOTE (Stingray @ May 6 2010, 04:01 AM) *
What about Naga's? Surged Naga Adept Gunslinger.. ( w/shiva arms-metamenetic trait)
althought findind an suitable armor would be REALLY hard job.. biggrin.gif


A friend of mine did a naga hacker. No shiva arms.
Neraph
QUOTE (Stingray @ May 6 2010, 03:01 AM) *
althought findind an suitable armor would be REALLY hard job.. biggrin.gif

What, an armored jacket?
Yerameyahu
Attributes definitely count in drake form, but things like extra arms… hmm.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ May 6 2010, 12:11 PM) *
Attributes definitely count in drake form, but things like extra arms… hmm.



I don't know there's some pretty weird stuff out there.
Xahn Borealis
This topic, along with the adept one makes me want to make a drake adept!
Draco18s
QUOTE (Xahn Borealis @ May 6 2010, 07:24 PM) *
This topic, along with the adept one makes me want to make a drake adept!


The only downside to a drake adept is getting a third initiative pass. The adept power is crazy expensive (and rightly so), but you can't get 'ware.
Yerameyahu
frown.gif It is sad. Just go Mysad for the Reflexes spell, I guess.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012