I am starting a new Shadowrun group and since my group is all experience players now, we were thinking of using the Karma based character generation system from the Companion.

I was wondering if anyone has used it for making prime runner NPCS. Should I just adjust the starting points allong the same percentages as the BPs from the core book ? Or does anyone have any suggestions for their games?

For NPCs, I would simply give them whatever stats make sense - no point in going through the full character creation process for one. Furthermore, neither BP nor karmagen are really an optimal guage of power level. For the same amount of points, you can create characters ranging from useless to overpowering.

Well, if all of your players are experienced in SR, and you would like to get past street-level, I would suggest starting them off with at least 1000 karma, if not 1100 or 1200, even. Plus you should increase the availibility to 15 or 18 and allow them to have more starting funds - up to double of more.

The only thing I would suggest is you not allow those various game-breaking things out there, like possession tradition. We did a high-powered game and the GM made a possession tradition mage for one of the PCs with a force 6 spirit. That character was nigh-unkillable, and able to do too much. Also, having someone be a super-rigger with the ability to control half-a-dozen drones at one time, each with 3 IP and all manner of weaponry should be curtailed.

I know it sounds like keeping the PCs from making the characters they want, but some things are too much, and interfere with the rest of the group from having fun.

Why is this a problem in a high powered game? Hell, you can do this at standard character creation for a regular game... wait until you see the rigger controlling 42 active subscriptions at once... it is an awesome sight to behold...

Keep the Faith

For karma levels, it depends on which version of karmagen you are using. The German errata is not official, but basically it applies SR4A costs to raising Attributes (x 5 instead of x 3), and metahumans pay their base cost in karma (20 karma to be an ork, etc.). Characters built this way tend to be over 400 BP, but not nearly as much as previously. So 1,000 karma or more would be about right for prime runners.

Using the straight karmagen from the book (no cost to be a metahuman, and x 3 for Attributes), you can use the default 750 Karma, which is about the same as 600 BP or so. Characters built this way tend to fit my idea of prime runners - very good in their specialties, but well-rounded in other areas.

For a high-powered campaign, you might consider making some other changes. You could give them free contacts based on Charisma, raise availability limits and resource maximums (or give them more nuyen per karma point), and maybe allow a few levels of initiation or submersion at the start of play.

Possession traditions are only powerful if the people involved don't really know the rules (like allowing the mage to get himself possessed and still being able to cast) or if the player is insanely clever. But in that case, any spirit is really powerful.

And with drones: literally anyone can do that. Even the mage can (and should) have at least a couple of combat ready drones on hand. Plus, it can come back and bite you too. More drones = more datatrail = more chance of being tracked. I had a guy with 11 drones that had Stick and Shock ammo loaded, and he had them successfully sneak up on a guard (the guard was busy watching a trideo). He had them under one subscription and ordered them to shoot the guard once... so the guard took 11 SnS rounds. 99 Stun that he dropped all the way down to 77 (amazing rolls, believe it or not). But now instead of having an incapacitated guard, they had a body.

It is really simple to counter both of those as well: Banishing, Manabolts, and Backround Count (a-la Mana Static) for the spirits, and jamming, hacking, EMP grenades, and fooling the dog-brain (if the guards figure out that only guards are being shot, have them take off their badge/put on a coat. Now they're no longer identifiable as guards - hence, not being attacked). And Stick and Shock ammo works well on both.

Because the game-breaker is stealing fun from the other players.

Now, a certain amount of imbalance happens, but you can alleviate that with flavor text. But when every combat devolves to waiting for the rigger's initiative, after which everything is dead, that's just not fun. The whole point of the game is to have fun, and to have one character dominate every time just isn't fun.

No, I get that... Usually, though, it is the Combat Gumbies that are hogging all the attention, not the Riggers...

My Point, though, was that in a HIGH level game, all the characters are much like that... so it is not as big of a problem as when it happens near character creation...

No Problems though...

Keep the Faith

A rigger with 42 armed drones is pretty much a one-man shadowrunning team. Those aren't any fun, either.

Even in a high-powered game, taking a character beyond what the other players have done is a recipe for a bad game. Maxing the hell out of Possession, for example, means you're going to be significantly more powerful at combat than the gun bunny. You can challenge him without wiping out the rest of the party, but only by giving the broken character more spotlight time.

Let's face it, at any BP/karma level, SR4.5 allows a huge difference in character power levels. This difference can be difficult to overcome. The difference is magnified, however, at higher power levels, as some archetypes start to lag behind others.

First, the VAST majority of the drones were surveillance drones being use to control the flow of information on the battlefield, and secondly, all the characters are at abouth the same level of badassery...

I see no difference in the HAcker/Rigger who can control a battlefield of drones from the Mages who bring multiple moderate to high force spirits onto the battlefield, or the Technomancer who floods a system with Sprites... Force Multipliers are a fact of life in Shadowrun... There are ways to use them (kind of like we do, they become background action, our force multipliers vs. our opponent's force multipliers, their victory or defeat entirely dependant upon our victory or defeat), or you could insist on having initiatives for each and every one of these force mulitpliers out there and insist on playing the combat out... the second choice is exceedingly boring FOR EVERYONE INVOLVED in my opinion...

I will agree with you though, that 10 characters, all made on 400 BP base rules will result in 10 completely different power levels of character... one of the interesting things about the game, actually, but you DO have to keep an eye that one person does not completely take over all of the scenes from the others... and yes, the more experienced the characters get, the harder it is to keep the "balance" from going out of whack...

Keep the Faith

It's not hard to arm even the smallest of surveillance drones.

A mage has a hard cap on how many spirits he can summon. An otaku can only have so many Sprites on hand. But with proper programming and patience, there is no limit to the number of drones a rigger can command. What's the limit on drones? If they've got a good Pilot program, you can give them orders to attack at a preset signal. Subscription limits don't have to apply. Oh, and while making each drone roll individually is boring, it's also the way the Rules Are Written. If you think that RAW isn't good enough, that's fine; but then you're agreeing with me that the rules don't work as advertised.

Nuyen?

Sure, YOU CAN arm all those drones, but as you said, at that point, why do you need any one else... which is why they were not armed and were part of the backdrop instead of the priomary focus of the conflict at the time... I never said you could not roll the massive number of drones, each individually (would have eaten up a lot of time that could have been spent elsewhere)... what I said was that it would detract from the game, as the game would then be about the drone war instead of the character's themselves... it is not that it is not good enough (it is, the rules work just fine as they are in my opinion), it is that it is not the focus...

I know that you understand that... If I was using a drone or two, then yes, I would use the drones as part of the scenario... nothing wrong with that... when you are undertaking a massive response to a situation... you COULD use just drones and destroy material... I opted to make the drones more background, so that we could focus upon the characters and THEIR actions within the greater scope of things... that is why it went that way...

No worries though, as I said earlier...
And yes, as Xhan Borealis points out, the limit on drones is the amount of money you have to spend... Surveillance Drones are cheap... Combat drones are not...

Have a great evening Cain...

keep the Faith

Arming 100 drones is dirt cheap, if you just arm them with small arms and save the big guns for the heavy combat drones.


If the rules "work just fine", in your book, why did you change them?

That's the bottom line.

They clearly did NOT work for you. You wanted less tactical combat, and more focus on the characters. And that's fine. You couldn't get that within the RAW. And that's fine. I know you can understand that. The point is that character build, rules, and even story take a back seat to Fun. If it's fun, then run with it. If it's not fun, then toss it and move on. Clearly, attacking with an army of drones or an overpowered Possession mage was Not Fun for everyone else. Even you house rule these issues, even though you proclaim the rules Work As Written.

Man, you really need to relax... I did not change the rules... not once... When you are engaged in a massive fight, with tens, if not hundreds of combatants, do you roll the dice for all of the combatants? or do you focus upon the characters and what THEY are doing? This is the context in which you insist that I have changed the rules... You're wrong. The rules were not changed, the focus of the action just stayed with the characters, not the support that was being provided for various other duties/functions...

It is not like the drones were not doing anything, and I did spend a few actions here and there keeping tabs on what was going on in the big picture...but not using ALL of my resources is NOT implementing HOUSERULES... I mean really, get over it, I just wanted to focus on the characters, not the possibly extraneous non-player characters, drones and Spirits...

That is not a houserule... other times, like I have stated, I have used my drones... but again, I have very few Combat Drones, and your contention that you can arm any drone for cheap is flat out wrong... when you are forced to spend as much, or more, on a weapon mount, as you are on the drone, it is no longer cheap... if you are spending 200,000 just putting weapon mounts on your drones, how is that cheap? not to mention the actual weapons themselves, even if you are using just a machine pistol. You and I apparently have a very differing oipinion on what is cheap and what is not...

BTW, my 48 Surveillance Drones (which were not purchased all at once) only cost me 96,000 Nuyen, total, and I have absolutely no need for a Weapon mount or weapon to get tons of use out of them... Why would I spend 3 times what they are worth just to get a weapon on them? Especially when they are perfectly legal and cause no raising of eyebrows when they are unarmed... besides, Information is far more valuable a commodity than having an extra gun to use 9 times out of 10...Just sayin'...

And we also apparently have a different opinion on what constitutes a House Rule... Not using all the rules to their optimal benefit is not a Houserule, it is a choice to not use all of the rules... and that is it... these rules have not been discarded, they are just used only when they need to be...

Keep the Faith

Ignoring certain rules is also a house rule.

Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with using a few house rules to make the game more fun. But at the same time, you cannot proclaim that the rules work as written while telling tales about how you ignored/altered them.


All of which is fine. You're changing the rules to have more fun.


96,000 is nothing in a high-powered game, and you can start with that easily enough, even as a base character. And do I have to point out how you just contradicted yourself?


Selective enforcement of certain rules = Houserule. If you only enforce Drain on high-powered spells, you've got a houserule. This is the same thing.

What you do not seem to get is that the scenarion I described was not selective enforcement of the rules... it was a smaller scenario embedded within a greater scenario... not Houserules... we used the smaller scenario, and did not get invovled with the larger scenario...

From the way you are presenting it, if I am offerred a shadowrun job, and I don't particularly like the job, me telling the Johnson no is a Houserule... I call Crap on that... we did not alter rules, we did not make new rules, we used the rules that we needed within the scenario as presented... I am not sure where you are getting your information on how we play... Only rolling Drain for High powered Spells? No, We roll drain on all spells... just like you are supposed to... AS for the Drones, I had legal subscriptions to all of them (If I have to explain to you how to accomplish that, then you may need other help), and I had data coming in from all of them, with constant analysis and updates provided to me and the Tacnet; Why would I need anything else? Your implication that because I did not constantly concentrate upon the drones I was using Houseriules is just Flat Out Wrong... Could we have expanded the playfield a bit to interact with other things going on? Sure... Did we have to do so... NO... we concentrated upon what was important... Are you going to tell me that just because I did not use my drone resources to their maximum capabilities that I was using a House Rule? Really?

You really should taka a step back and look at what you have just said... You essentially said that if I do not use the backup gun that I have hidden at midback to shoot someone, I am using a Houserule. Do you not see how outrageous of a claim that is?

AS for the ability to purchase 100,000 Nuyen worth of Drones, and then Spend an additional 200,000 Nuyen to equip said drones, and then spend another 100,000 Nuyen to actually put a weapon on the drones (400,000 Nuyen at this point) when I DO NOT NEED THE WEAPON CAPABILITIES THAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT; Sure, I could do that, But why would I want to do so, why would I spend an additional 300,000 Nuyen for capabilities that are not necessary? I have 2 perfectly capable combat drones, that I use when it is necessary... the other drones in my arsenal are strictly for surveillance... not for assassinations, not for fire support, not for suppression fire, and not for handcufing my enemies... SURVEILLANCE.... Arming a Surveillance Drone invites scrutiny... as it stands now, my Surveillance drones are generally ignored, because they blend in with the environment... no illegal tech on them at all, and nothing that would make a Lonestar or Knight Errant Officer want to take a closer look at them. Why is that so hard for you to understand? Not every one, even in a 300 Karma Game, needs to have the absolute best, most expensive, and most deadly equipment that you can possibly acquire... I would much rather blow 50,000 Nuyen on a wild party with friends and acquaintences (close to a hundred people), on a Boat in the harbor watching the fireworks show that I arranged to have, than get completely crazy on the equipment.

And oh yeah... Dice Pools are reasonable for the game as well, I think that between the 6 characters playing we have 2 Dice pools above 15... The Technomancers Spoof Tests, and my Perception Tests... everything else is either at 15 DP or lower... so maybe your expectations of a High Powereed Game and My Expectations of a High Powered Game are wildly different... maybe that is where we are having the disconnect...

No Worries though...

Keep the Faith

In other rules, you handwaved the larger scenario. That's still houserules. You can try and escape it all you like, you used houserules. Don't feel bad, just about every Shadowrun GM worth his salt has resorted to houserules a time or two. I promise, it doesn't make you a dirty boy.


Where did this come from? Are you trying to start a fight?

Ok, here's how you make a prime runner. You pick a challenging dice pool number, like 10, or 14, or 18, or 21, whatever works for your game. Then, in any test, that's how many dice you roll. Either that or you pick the most challenging character and you basically just bring out a clone of him, but with enough flavor mixed up that nobody really notices. Or, bring out an amalgam of particular characters or something. There's really no need to get all worked up over how many build points/karma/nuyen you're spending. Whatever the characters do is fair game, so a clone of a character is fair game for the GM to trot out. Giving it a little bit more (amalgamating a couple other characters and lowering the clone abilities somewhat) is also fair, because it's going up against a party of PCs.

No, it just seems that you are looking at something completely different from what I am looking at... just wanted to point out that the game is, by karma Awards, a High level game, but is seems to be more grounded than most High powered games seem to be here on Dumpshock... that is all... No fight was intended... I was pointing out that the concept of "not using everyhting that I could, as written in the rules" has consequences when you interpret the Ruls so strictly that there is no room for anything else. The only other option that I can conceive of at that point is that we are looking at two completely different levels and style of game.

That out of the way, I still disagree with your assessment that "handwaving" a larger picture to focus on the direct action where characters are actually involved is Houseruling... it isn't... Why do you insist that it is? There is a great deal of action that goes on in any campaign city each and every night, and yet I am going to assume that you, as a GM, do not showcase each and every bit of that, it would be impossible to actually accomplish... I presume that your scale of the game is focused upon your characters, and not on the stuff that is going, but does not directly concern them. By your definition, that is houseruling... By Mine, it is not... WHY you consider that Houseruling is what I do not understand... Can you even explain that to me, rather than just saying that "oh, you did not use everything at your disposal, so you are not using the rules as written." This makes absolutely no sense... Can you explain it?

Thanks

Keep the Faith

Interpreting the rules so strictly that there's no room for anything else is pretty much the definition of following RAW. Granted, I don't k now of any GM who actually does this. They all handwave and house-rule away anything that doesn't make their game fun. My impression is that this is what you do. The difference between hand-waving and house-ruling is largely one of degree: when you hand wave something, you create a one-time exemption; when you house rule, you're creating a permanent change to the rules.

I've explained this often enough, but here goes: Whenever you alter, ignore, or selectively enforce the rules, you are no longer following RAW. You can call this house-ruling or hand-waving; in whatever case, you've decided to ignore the rules for a greater purpose. You might decide that the rules aren't going to be fun, or you want a story point to come off, or whatever. And no good GM is willing to let the rules stand in the way of a fun game. I'm assuming that you're a good GM, based on your posts. Don't you do this?

What I do is focus down to the Characters perspectives... anything that is happening around them is extraneous unles it impacts the characters directly. if it dies not, it is not needed for the actual play of the scenario... I do not "Ignore" what is going on in the background so much as only highlight what directly impacts the characters... if it does not, then there is no need for it... those things that impact the characters are a RAW influence... those things that do not, need no representation whatsoever... so it it not so much Houseruling (Changing the rules) as much as only using the rules in the character's presence, as everything else is story based and not rule based... so not really a handwave either...

We're Cool..

Keep the Faith

Cain maybe you could explain your position more, it seems what you are saying is if you don't roll dice for or express every action that happens in the SR universe you are somehow not playing by RAW. That's my take on what you are saying anyway and it seems lets use the word extreme.

What Tymeaus Jalynsfein seems to be doing is "zooming in" on the pcs and focusing on what is going on around them and not a few blocks over because it's not important to his game. Once again my take on it.

Thanks Angelone... that is exactly what I am saying...
And it does seem that Cain is doing exactly what you are pointing out...

Keep the Faith

Not every action, but certainly significant ones.

If you've got a raging drone battle going on, you can either a) Use the horrifying Chase Combat rules to try and battle it out, or b) Simplify, apply a few house rules, and focus on the characters. Technically, this is indeed house-ruling. But it isn't a bad thing, which is what TJ isn't getting. So long as you're having fun, it doesn't matter if you're playing with all the rules, or even converted to Wushu.

I've seen lots of GM's say these words: "Don't even bother rolling." It's done whenever a roll wouldn't add to the fun of a game. And it's a house rule. So what? It adds to the fun of a game, even if it doesn't follow the rules. TJ is essentially saying that this is what he does. All I'm doing is helping him clear up the disconnect in his logic.

What you are missing is that there is no disconnect to clear up; if anything, the disconnect is on your side, not mine... there is no need to roll every dice every time...

Keep the Faith

If you're not rolling dice each and every time, you're incorporating house rules. Which is fine, as long as you're having fun. Just don't try and pretend like it's anything other than a house rule.

Oh, and BTW? I'm agnostic. Please stop adding lines pertaining to "faith" which have no relation to the post, I find it offensive.

Whatever Cain... You really should just sit back and relax then... Your views of what constitute Houserules are just way out there... you're entitled, of course, but obviously not everyone agrees with you...

Just Sayin'

And Faith does not always refer to Religion... in this case, it refers to keeping the Faith with Shadowrun...
In other words... Keep on Playing...

Not really. This is a standard, accepted definition.

All I'm saying is, have fun! Just don't say that you're having fun with the RAW when you've obviously got a fast-and-loose playstyle.

Sorry...

I play the RAW, Just not your RAW...

Keep the Faith

Ask Toturi. There's only one RAW.

Look, there's nothing wrong with a fast-and-loose playstyle. In the hands of the right GM, it can be a lot of fun. So I'm not insulting or flaming you when I say you have a fast-and-loose playstyle. You are not playing by RAW, though, and definitely not playing by RAW according to Toturi standards. That's all I'm saying.

I get it... I am not offended in any way actually, It just seems that you (and Totrui, though he is still probably the MOST RAW GM I have known)... It is just that we have different interpretations of what actually makes the RAW... like I said, we do use the rules, in the way they are written even, but no where in the rules does it say that the GM/Players MUST roll ALL applicable dicerolls, especailly if the action that is demanding the roll does not happen to even concern the characters... (DO you roll every Drone in teh city as your character's drive along? I would be willing to bet that you don't)...

The way you come across on this is that EVERY SINGLE ROLL, regardless of intent or location, MUST BE ROLLED... which is simply not the case... in some cases. things can just be ignored (No Roll), can Be abstracted (Auto Buy of Successes 1/4) and Actual Dice Rolling (Standard Dice Rolls). The game system allows all of those, and does not demand that all rolls that can be made Must be made... That is where my disagreement cwith your interpretation omes into play... I do not agree with that assessment... even if I don't roll the dice, it does not mean that I have deviated from the rules

Anyways...

Keep the Faith

By RAW, every single roll must be rolled. Buying successes is an optional rule. In the rules, it says that every last member of chase combat must make a Handling roll, no matter what their situation is. In combat, every last dice roll must be made, according to RAW.

Does this make for a better game? I certainly don't think so. But is it RAW? Yes.

Now, I'm going to err on the side of a better game. I think you would as well. Just don't advertise what you're doing as RAW, since it seems you have a very fast-and-loose play style. You don't use all the rules, all the time, which is what constitutes the RAW. And IMO, it makes for a better game. Do you disagree?

SR4A Page 60.

If you know in advance that a certain outcome would be
more dramatic or amusing than what you are likely to roll, then don’t
bother to roll. When the rules get in the way of the story, ignore the
rules and tell the story.

Sounds like RAW to me.

Don't have SR4.5 handy, but IIRC that's in a section titled "The abstract nature of rules". In other words, an optional fluff section.

Yeah... Except when it comes to Missions... Then you can't even use any of the pages of optional rules presented in the core book. Providing your running a Mission at an event and not at home.
Oh and my advise for a high powered game TAKE THE SKILL CAPS OFF (or at leased double them)

Dont worry, I understand where both of you are coming from, just wanted to throw a different perspective out there.