That's pretty much how everything in the Sixth World operates. Just look at the creation of the NAN or Tir na n'Og, or hell, even the sovereignty of megacorporations as examples. "Oh hey, you guys came and stole this land through acts of terrorism? Mmkay, it's all yours. Wanna be friends now?" or "Hey everybody across the planet, the United States was idiotic enough to sign away their power over corporations. Let's all follow suit!"

For Reference. Also, see this.


Or Israel, the USA, Eritrea, North Korea, Croatia, Kosovo, the Baltic Republics, East Timor, India, Bangladesh ...

Tir Tairngire (not Tir na nOg, which was created by internal reform and creeping takeover) has been likened to Israel a lot in early SR fiction.

In the words of Dr. McNinja himself:
Dracula has a moon base...

I can see how it'd work out.

First, you have the old situation; rule by committee. Nobody was really happy with it.

Ghostwalker shows up, kicks up a lot of dirt, and attacks Aztlan (who were disliked by everyone anyway.) Aztlan can't ferry in a lot of troops because the CAS and PCC won't let them cross their territory without starting a war.

Why didn't anyone else intervene heavily? Because nobody trusted anyone else in Denver; nobody would allow another side to build up enough troops to conquer the city in the event that Ghostwalker was killed.

And just how problematic is having Ghostwalker there? Not all that much, really. Government got more effective, but is still neutral enough to be acceptable to all sides.

:::wipes brow:::

Yes, I did actually write that in: The hidden weapons in the transports were battle-grade lasers, and the weapon Demchenko has used was some sort of targeting device, Chase realized. (Night's Pawn, page 284.)

As previously stated, the intention was that even Great Dragons had to move carefully sometimes.

TomD

was being the operative word, now we have LOL GHOSTWALKER!

Right, except they have something to gain in those situations. That's where you guys are stumbling. You guys are saying that they don't care enough about Denver to NOT pull out all the stops to keep/reclaim Denver.

See the problem?

I mean, hey, I am inclined to dislike Great Dragons as big plot devices in general-- metaplots simply aren't a big enough part of my (rather street level) games for such monstrosities to be very useful. I've argued rather vehemently against this particular incident in the past a few times. But I think it's going too far to say that SR authorities would immediately leap to maximum force for a single city when there's another way out that keeps to the status quo. Compared to everything else, the idea that a ruined Denver is nobody's idea of a win condition seems rather plausible.

Okay... I found my error, and here is an update...
The conversion from Joules to Kilotons was incorrect (as a note... the Previous Claculation appears to have been for Joules to Megatons... which is still pretty impressive if you think about it)... I took the time at work tody to look up the information with the relevant energy sources and have a better idea of exactly how this interaction would work...

Using the data for Metric conversions, a Standard "Rod From God" which is the data that I calculated yesterday generates 3.24 x 10^12th Joules of Energy... for those that missed it, that is 3.24 TRILLION Joules of Energy... the equivalent Kilotons of explosive force that is released upon impact is equal to 0.774378585 Kilotons... which is pretty significant...

However, If you use United States Customary Units of measure (Feet instead of Meters, etc.) the damage potential actually changes pretty dramatically, for the same weights and speeds converted to this unit of measure... in this case, the Speed becomes 117,000 feet per second (from 36,000 mps) with a mass of the rod equal to 11,000 pounds (from 5000kg). Now, plugging the numbers into the old computer reults in 75.2895 TeraJoules (That is Trillion Joules for those who are curious), which results in an explosive force equivalent to 17,994.622371 Tons of explosive force on impact (17.994 Kilotons)...

Note, this is in the range of destruction that is generally ascribed to these devices upon impact...

As can be seen, a Standard Thor Shot is not somethjing that just destroys a few buildings... it devastates an area in excess of the bombs that destroyed Nagasaki and Hiroshima... you are looking at a blast radius of about 4-6 Miles, which is no joke at all...

Thought that it might be interesting for those of you that are into such things... interestingly enough, the smaller "Crowbar sized Rods deliver teh equivalent of about a 500 poubd bomb,,, which is pretty impressive in and of itself, and would cause FAR less damage...

Like I said, Interesting...

Keep the Faith

Using the above

I hate ghostwalker because Denver was one of the coolest cities until he came around. It is similar but not nearly as cool now.

Shame Too, at one point I really looked forward to operating out of Denver, but now, Meh...

Keep the Faith

Just checking in quick to say I fully agree with the sentiment expressed in the last line of Tom's post. I'd like to move toward that.

Jason H.

So will we see more of the Great Dragons / Immortal Elves, but with them realizing that they really are no longer the biggest baddest kids on the block?

I think that story - how does Superman behave when everyone else may not be Superman, but they can find Kryptonite if they have to - is an interesting story.

-M&P

I'm not prepared to say we'll be seeing more of them, but I'd certainly prefer to bring them slightly back down to earth when they appear.

Jason H.

The place your stumbling is the risk you imply for the megas and the nationals vice their loss of the city, point of fact Ghostwalker didn't just come in and say "I'm running things now, i'm a neutral party and notghings going to change" He came in and said "Here you answer to me now and will provide troops for the defense of my fiefdom which you will pay and provide for and I will command" on what planet does that make sense, I can maybe see the various forces taking their ball and go home leaving Denver to ghost walker but setting up the JDF as his brute squad on their dime? Sure whatever, further given GW's propensity for small business over megacorps (per DOSW aka "Isn't Ghostwalker cool and mysterious and powerful") I can very much see the Corporate Court being more then willing, especially if their influenced by an unholy alliance of SK and Aztechnology to want to Omega Order GW ias an example.

Basically the only thing at risk in fighting over Denver is Denver, but the net result of not fighting over Denver was the loss of Denver. If Denver was worth jointly administering in the first place it aught to be worth working to keep it out of an upstarts dragons claws.

But it appears that they ARE still jointly administering things without the bother of missiles strikes and all the messiness such things entail.

The problem is that taking Denver back by any side isn't just taking Denver back. It's like Berlin back after World War II. Allowing another side to muscle you out of Denver means that you're weak, that they're stronger. It's a major loss of face for all sides involved. If the UCAS just kicks back and lets Pueblo CC kick them out, what's that say about how weak the UCAS is? Aztlan couldn't have allowed itself to be kicked out of Denver by any other group -- it would have been open war. But Ghostwalker doing it? Sure, the blame can be laid at the feet of a Great Dragon and everyone knows how terrible they can be. It allowed the sides to kick Aztlan out and although Aztlan hates them for it, it hates them all equally just like everyone else. There's no societal pressure to go back and "right the wrongs" that the UCAS perpetuated, it was all Ghostwalker's fault.

Like others have said, there's nothing to Denver. Nobody really wants it, but they can't just walk away and let someone else take it over, there's just too much potential loss of face. Ghostwalker alleviates that.

Exactly how i look at it. It is meh now. Not as bad as what they did to Tir Tangerine(I think Tir Eggnog is still the same as it was before), Tir Tangerine is just any other corp town with more pointy ears than most. Total fail.

Read DoSW again, it makes it abundantly clear that Ghostwalker is running the show and the national governments are footing the bill. This notion that Ghostwalker being the one to supervise the Azzie's eviction from the city would somehow not cause a war is just ridiculous. In order for the situation to work out the national powers involved have to be more scared of Ghostwalker then they are of each other, which only works because he was Fanpro's super duper dragon.

Not to mention that when a Great Dragon attacks a city, most people will think "Theran! Oh no!" and not "Oh, he'll take over, and things will be the same." And so theire reactions should be quite different.

Yup. Epic and total.

It'd be nice if they kept their place as miniature demigods, with stats that outpaced the paltry ones listed in SR4A, but did have weaknesses built into them, or could be threatened by enough people, etc. The earlier sentiment, of a great dragon merely being a threat to a prime runner team, doesn't fit their place in fluff. At least, not to me. Problem is, to keep their place in fluff while not being the biggest kids on the block you're breaking out Verjigorm and friends.

I think.

The topic of Ghostwalker is almost like the Battletech forums "Medium Lasers are overpowered"
and "JagerMechs Suck" topics: it keeps coming up, and pretty much the same stuff gets thrown around and
around. For a change, it is nice to see some different issues pop up here, unlike the last few threads I have
seen on the topic.

That out of the way, I will say that I have my own reasons for disliking Ghostwalker, which I will get to later in
this reply. I want to address somethings I am seeing brought up, first.

1) "Why would the Treaty Nations foot the bill for Ghostwalkers Denver defense force?"
Who was paying for the defense of Denver before, if not the Treaty Nations. In effect, this was a more
neutral way of protecting the Treaty City. As far as I have read, Ghostwalker did not invalidate the
Treaty of Denver, so the various nations were still required to put up forces for its defense.

2) "What do the nations have to gain by letting Ghostwalker take over?"
Well, first, since he gave the Aztlan section to the CAS, this is a good bit of evidence that, though the
national boundaries were gotten rid of, the sectors remained. First thing they gain, though, is that they
do not have to maintain the borders within the city. Keeping up everything that was used to make a check
point is expensive in the long term, and that expense was removed. On top of that, without needing a Visa
or similar to cross the borders, you have an increase in people moving between the sectors, bringing money
to spend in those sectors that previously were more difficult to get to for citizens from some countries. More
money means more taxes that are coming in. They are still citizens of their respective countries, after all, and,
thus, still pay taxes.

3) "Dragons can be killed, why didn't they just kill Ghostwalker by leveling the city with orbital lasers and thor
shots?"
Well, we are talking about governments here, not corporations. Governments, ultimately, care about only
one thing: Taxes. Someone dismissed the idea of collateral damage, saying that no-one would care about
it to take out a Dragon. However, dead men pay no taxes. We also do not know if Ghostwalker was in
communication with the other nations in some way, shape, or form before attacking (mostly) Aztlan
territory. For all we know, the Draco Foundation sent people to the people on the other nations and
said "Look...there is a BIG dragon coming here. He is going to be on the Warpath against Aztlan, and
might be going after specific targets in your sectors. Put up ONLY token resistance, and you will not
have to worry about another Tehran." Diplomacy, after all, does not have to be just by the Dragon,
now, does it?

As I said above, I have my own reasons for not like Ghostwalker. They boil down, though, to one statement:
"Sure, he came in, kicked Aztechnology.Aztlan out of Denver, set up his own feudal domain and made the nations
of North America agree to do his bidding in one city.....but what has he done SINCE?" I do not like thins with so
much potential essentially sitting fallow...I want to know what Ghostwalker is doing...he's a Great Dragon, he's not
sitting on his horde saying "Look at how great I am!" He is doing SOMETHING.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but changing units doesn't affect the damage potential. The trick is in the scaling.

Et=m x v^2/2*g_c is energy in foot-pound force (roughly 1.3558179483314 Joules)

This gives us for 117,000 feet/sec and 11,000 pounds and g_c=32.174 049 the equivalent of 3.17e12 Joules or approx 760 ton TNT or 7,200 MK82's.

When calculating with the lower boundary of orbital speeds (9,000 mps) you need approximately an 11 kg Rod to obtain the same kinetic energy as a MK82 (438.98 megajoules).

Now here is where it becomes interesting. Launch costs per kg of payload to Geostationary orbit are approx USD 21k as off 2008. Hence the launch costs for a Rod of God equivalent to a MK82 would amount (and lets be conservative and take a 50% cost excess) USD 231k. And of course the costs of the tungsten rod itself (USD 35/kg = USD 385, neglible). Let's put a figure on the costs per MK82 equivalent rod of USD 250k.

A MK82 costs in the range of USD 2-3.5k depending on lay-out, but has one big disadvantage, it requires a delivery vehicle and shot aircraft make for a bad pr...

I still struggle to see why the various governments that were willing to give in to Ghostwalker retain any value in Denver. It's not like Denver had any particular resources - it was a political city. Politics can be handled without such forced face-to-face situations, and maintaining Denver has got to be a resource strain for nations not adjacent. Why wouldn't the same governments that handed over control so quickly not just pull out all important assets (including SINners) over a span of a few years, allowing Ghostwalker to have control of a meaningless ghost town full of SINless and lacking in any government support? If this were the case, then we might understand why Ghostwalker hasn't done anything since - he's realized that claiming a modern fief just doesn't work the same way as it did back in the old days. I like this because I'd rather see Denver become a "Feral City" than what it is now, and I like the idea that Ghostwalker bit off more than he could chew.

Wouldn't have been the Draco Foundation, as Big D only died a few scant hours prior.

I believe that your timeline is wrong but I do not have books handy to double check. I was under the impression that it was quite sometime after Dunkelzahn's death that GW came out of the rift.

Graywulfe

Considering that the rift was created by the Big D's Death, pretty likely.
When was the inauguration?
Ghostwalker came out to play on Samhain/Halloween . .

You might be right. I'm not that familiar with the History.

Dunk was '57, GW was year of the comet ( '61)

Danke

Graywulfe

Thanks for that correction. I remember most of the SR history as if it was told by someone (which honestly how I get most of it: from our GM who's read more of the fluff and novels than anyone). So I remember closer to an oral history epic tale than as discrete facts.

Burning Times or however that one novel with Talon was called had the background to ghostwalker coming up again.

I've only read Never Deal with a Dragon and Psychotrope, so...

Psychotrope was a good novel in my eyes.
Basically, Talon went on a metaplanar quest to free the free ancestor spirit of his dead lover/mentor and accidentally freed something huge that screamed "FREE AT LAST!" while rushing by . . he goes back to the normal plane, checks the news and voila, something huge came out of the watergate rift . .

Oh, I vaguely remember that.

Memory not quite gone yet eh? ^^

Not quite. Not quite.

I guess the reason that the nations did not is because....of the Treaty of Denver. They have to maintain their presence there, have to keep people there because, otherwise,
it is potentially war.

Welcome to the world of politics, where anything can be seen as a sign of weakness, so not upsetting the applecart is often the best bet.

That summarizes my view of all the Great Dragons and the Immortal Elves (including the Tir's). You have this history from Earthdawn, you have the story of the downcycle hunting, you have the other metaplot elements. Granted, they do not (generally) effect a street level campaign, but they do effect the world. It appears that since 2070, these major players have been just looking at each other and not doing anything.

From a GM standpoint, sometimes it's nice to have a metaplot to hook onto, especially when your players graduate from street level.

-M&P

Lets be honest about one thing, by removing one of it's signatories unilaterally (Atztlan) Ghostwalker invalidated the treaty of denver at the very least the Azzies should have had justifiable reason to go to war and perhaps others to do the same. While we like to think of the Azzies as the big bad of the game historically Aztlan has closer ties to the NAN then the NAN does to the CAS or UCAS. While there have been some problems in california acting like everyone just said "Welp you got rid of the fat kid we all hated the most so your our friend now, thanks."


This is actually patently incorrect the check points are still in place per SoNA and the Denver missions campaign (which is at least somewhat canonical) so the checkpoints and restrictions on travel are still in force. The ONLY thing that Ghostwalker has changed about the situation is his ZDF forces can cross the borders without incident because everyone works sooo much better when you serve a dragon.



You majorly overstate the political pull of the Draco foundation, especially their ability as a group that's mostly seen as an arm or closely aligned with the UCAS to reassure nations hostile to the UCAS of Ghostwalkers peaceful intent, despite all evidence to the contrary. I'm always puzzled by peoples need to pencil in after the fact justifications for what is in effect crappy writing.



What are any of the great dragons doing? What are any of the couple of hundred people that comprise the ruling elite of the world doing of which the dragon's compirse a part but get a disportional ammount of screen time, which by the way a very few of that number should actually be immortal elves.

One thing that's always bothered me about the Dragons and especially the immortal elves is this base assumption that they are secretly going to be running the world, sure it makes sense that one or two dragons or immortal elves with considerable business or just people savy might parlay portions of their hoards into enough cash to make signifigant investments in corporations and Lofwyr doing it a bit better then the others to seize hold of SK makes some sense in a singular occurance, but this seeming assumption that every dragon some how has vast wealth at their disposal always made me kind of quirk my head, there's only so much of a market for raw precious gems and the like and you could only get ahead so far on what you could seize by your own personal power but megacorporate stock options seems to be part of the draconic racial modifiers table and I for one can't figure that out.

Going by semantics, we have a great dragon named "Ghostwalker" who clearly has some mastery of spirits. I don't think it'd be too much of a stretch to see he has some kind of connection to shamanism, which would make it easier to understand why the Indian nations like Sioux and Salish-Shidhe didn't seem to worry too much about him. Maybe their mentor spirits told them to let Ghostwalker run a muck and it'd all work out. And giving the Aztech sector of Denver to CAS would put Ghostwalker on friendlyer terms with the CAS.

Also considering that Ghostwalker required a astral rift to enter the physical world, we might be able to assume that Ghostwalker was in some kind of astral prison, odds are an Alchera that only appears at the Watergate Hotel once every 100 or so years, or whenever Halley's Comet appears. And enters the question of how did Ghostwalker end up getting stuck in astral space? I guess we'll never really learn the answer because the whole plot line seems to have been dropped.

This is me just guessing, and I haven't read Year of the Comet or really all that much other then the SR4a book's history. And sorry if these have already been brought up in other topics before, but its all new to me...

Right, but is that so bad that it's a worse option than wrecking the city and then footing the bill to get everything back to normal? Again, I'm not saying that the Ghostwalker thing is a good deal. I'm not saying that they don't want the city back. I'm saying that they don't want the city back so badly that they're willing to utterly disregard casualties in order to do so, which is something you think they'd be willing to do. The notion that it's not even a real consideration is really the only point you have raised that I genuinely take issue with, but I think it's a big one. People are throwing words like "cruise missiles" around when talking about this situation like it's a great option that everyone is fine with, which is pretty non-sensical considering it's their own damn city they'd be firing these things towards, particularly since their ideal target is presumably capable of illusions and is definitely capable of reducing himself in size all the way down to a normal human.

If this is the case you have hosed a conversion, the data or a calc somewhere. 4.2*10^15 J is one megaton.

It's not THEIR city. Of course they are willing to fight to the death of everyone else for it. Why would they care if a bunch of people who hate them get killed?

Read burning times or however that novel is called.

So, the nations involved can't stand up to one dragon, but they'll go to war over another nation abandoning some quarter of a city? Bullshit. I really don't see why Denver is viable as a treaty city at all once Ghostwalker takes over, and the nations that want out could just as easily downplay the importance of their zone - and keep ownership in name only. Even then, only an embassy staff is really necessary, everyone else can be done away with - or left to rot. Denver wasn't all that great of an idea before Ghostwalker, but after him it's just a painful reminder of times in SR... So, perhaps that's the answer - have Denver be the city of Changelings!

Makes sense... It has been a very long time since I took my upper level science and math classes... I knew it had to do with scale, but could not see where...

I prefer the numbers for the Metric scale and the calculations looked good for the .77 Kilotons, which is still a pretty impressive blast... the conversions were just a bit troubling to me is all... glad some one could actually straighten me out...

Keep the Faith

Which is originally what was causing my confusion... I mistook the formula provided for a Kiloton Conversion, and the resulting figures were so far off that I began looking at other things to try and reconcile the issue. Once I realized that the initial Formula was not Kiloton related but Megaton related, it began to fall into polace. Unfortunately, I had at that point discoverd a conversion issue from Metrics to Imperial units... which is why I ultimately returned back her e for more help... I think that I am all sorted out now, and the .77 Kilotons result is something that I am definitely okay with...

Thanks kzt...

Keep the Faith

No problem, you could say this kind of math is my forte. The metric scale is by far the most simple and elegant of the systems out there. You only have to worry about getting the dimensions right and the rest works out for itself.

Man, fantasy based racism is awesome it's so cool when entire nations loose political will because their spirit loving shamans! It's a good thing all those injuns just automatically do whatever the spirits tell them.