It is less arbitrary than you think. It is good manners. Someone helps you, you thank them. This is true whether they hold a door open for you or keep you safe through then night when lost in a forest.

Earlier in this thread, it was specifically explained that you you *don't* thank them. It all depends on your specific set of customs.

Right, Snow Fox was talking about the fey of her European traditions. I am talking about the Kami of mine. That little difference aside we both agree on the need for good manners in dealing with such creatures.

I'm not arguing with you. I'm saying that all manners (==customs) are arbitrary. Magic in Shadowrun is Tradition-based, so the correct treatment of spirits derives from that.

Let me ask you, then: if my tradition says that Spirits == Elemental == "mere tools", is it spirit abuse to treat them better than "mere tools"?

Thanks, -- N

Possibly. Like I said, it all depends.

Even within a single tradition there's many interpretations and customs. No one's ever right, no matter how badly they think they are. Traditions are just a broad grouping of general beliefs; individual beliefs are what matter when it comes to magic.

Right, but the important element is to be correct within your tradition. I also agree it is wrong to think your way is the only way. DLN is quite right in her tradition to show gratitude but I would be wrong to do so. The element we have in common is showing respect and manners.

As for the elementals it depends on your edition. Ed's 1-3 has spirits as different from Elements but by 4th ed they are the same sort of being-allow that by 2070 the mana level has risen high enough to show them as similar.

Showing respect? Maybe, but even that's relative.

I've seen a Norse tradition magician with the Trickster mentor spirit, and his idea of 'proper interaction' with spirits is to deceive them and trick them into helping him (much as Loki might). He RP'd the 'commands' he gave to his spirits as 'requests' that were layered. The character had an awesome Charisma and a fantastic Con, so he treated a lot of NPCs this way too, and most of them were still happy to do his bidding even when they realized they were being tricked.

Yep, and then there's black magicians. In other words, it depends on hierarchy for some traditions and on context for virtually all of them. Keep in mind that being shown respect is more of a privilege than a right by many cultural standards, particularly ancient ones-- "Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."

Anyway, I like to work with my players to come up with a few taboos they shouldn't ask spirits to cross depending on their tradition rather than just play it by ear. For example, I've had a Qabbalistic mage who we decided couldn't order his spirits to harm people the magician had invited into his home or had otherwised promised care to-- many, many ancient cultures, even warlike ones, had serious, serious taboos against harming those to whom you have extended your hospitality, including the Hebrews. To kill a man you broke bread with under your own roof was basically the worst form of treachery.

'Daze think of it as the deal with the devil, you brgin for the service but a tricksy spirite might try to trick you to the lettero f the deal. depends on how much rp you want to do.

Generally speaking, spirits are abused if the mage uses a bound spirit for spell binding (which irrevocably depletes a spirit's Force), repeatedly puts them at risk, or does obviously abusive things such as asking a river elemental to put out a fire. Most of this, I am getting from the main book's section on spirits. In addition, individual traditions may have additional taboos, or demand more respect for the spirits from the magician, or have more proud, fickle, or bad-tempered spirits.

I would reserve the consequences of spirit abuse for the more major types of abuse, because a spirit using its Edge to resist summoning and/or binding is a very serious hindrance to a conjuring mage.

Why though? The typical Summoners are throwing about 12 dice (possibly more) or so, all things considered, by admission of many people here on the boards... In my opinion, all expending Edge for a summoning does is raise the damage potentia (cot of the Summoning) and reduces the nuber of services (Benefits of the Summoning) that the spirit will ultimately owe... Now, for a Force 3 or less Spirit, this is not even a serious impediment (At our Table; Force 3 and lower spirits do not spend Edge except in very rare circumstances... they are the lowly spirits, the "drones" of the Spirit World)... However, for Force 4 and greater they spend Edge as they will (they have the Attribute, afterall, and they may spend it on any Test that they desire, so it is even RAW to do so); That said, a Force 6 Spirit (using it Edge to Resist) rolls an equivalent number of dice to the summoner on most occasions (Again, Average 12 DP)... Also at our table, You can mitigate the Edge Expenditure by placating the spirits... this is a roleplay issue. If you choose not to do so, that is your choice, and you deal with the Edge expenditure at that point.

What this does in game is place a functional limit on Summoning Spirits. Are you going to casually risk the possible death of a character to summon a Spirit that is Force 8 at that point (possible 32 Points of Physical to soak... Possible but not likely; or more likely the 15 POints of Physical Damage; or even the 8 Boxes form a standard Conversion of 4 Dice/Success); which I understand is the most common Force of Spirit Summoned (when it is not Force 10 or more) by those that believe that Spirits are the tools of the Summoner... it is their right to summon such creatures and use them as they see fit. (Anecdotal: Our mage summoned a Force 5 Spirit once... Spirit resisted and the Mage had to soak 20 boxes of Stun Damage... Now, he respects the power of spirits, and does not just whip up a High Force Spirit because he thinks that he has the DP to do so)

As well, this will also make those times when You ABSOLUTELY MUST HAVE that Force 7 or 8 Spirit, and are willing to take the risks because there is absolutely no other alternative you can see... I mean really, how epic is the Force 8 Spirit if you can just whip one up casually?

Anyways... I know not everyone agrees, but I am curious as to why you think that enforcing the consequences of Spirit Abuse seriously hampers/hinders a Summoner... I have not seen any of that in our game at all; our mage still keeps a stable of bound spirits, and generally they are Force 3-5... you really do not need a Spirit of greater than Force 6 except for the few exceptional circumstances that may develop.

Keep the Faith

Most people who summon won't self-identify as a "summoners," and hence I'd hesitate to call anyone a "typical" summoner, since spirits are eminently useful to even general practioners. Getting reamed because you're a talented dabbler summoning a modest spirit but suddenly getting the Edge treatment can get harsh fast once you factor in reasonably expected penalties like sustaining or a point of stun or two from earlier drain. After all, players build characters towards the goal of matching the character concept's level of competence, and the fluff generally considers 8 or 9 dice to be fairly skilled. It can get ugly when it turns out that you need to be better than previously anticipated to fill your role, which is why I think it's best that GMs and mage players are on the same page when it comes to what constitutes "abuse."

It's really no different than the problem that comes up when a player looks at the RAW and says "Dodge 3 means I'm at a professional level!" only to find out that the GM loads his NPCs for piasma instead of bear. That's why I make a point of mentioning to my players that your average professional soldier would probably get themselves killed doing some of the shenanigans pink mohawks often attempt.

But to me, at least, that is a GM issue... NPC's should be believable... Spirits are NPC's... as a living entity, a spirit is not just waiting around somewhere in the Metaplanes, just waiting for a Mage to summon them to the Physical plane, so that they can undergo indentured servitude... I am sorry, I just do not buy that interpretation. They have their own agendas and their own personalities, and they should be portrayed as such. In some cases, a Spirit may be curious and be okay with being summoned, while other spirits are just pissed off because you have interrupted their daily "whatever." That situation may well change from day to day...

How would you feel, as a person, if some stranger wandered up to you sometime during the day, grabbed you by the scruff of the neck, put you in handcuffs, and then dragged you along for the next twelve hours, all the while demanding that you perform whatever task that this lunatic demands of you... Doesn't sound all that enjoyable does it? I bet the next time that this lunatic shows up you are going to try and punch his lights out as he attempts to put you back in handcuffs...

Just Sayin'

As for NPC stats, these should be realistic as well (there is a good table of definitions of what the Skill ratings mean... Following those guidelines, your NPC's will be more realistic, and your world will be better for it (at least in my opinion anyways).. The average dice pool should be somewhere between 5-8 for the vast majority of people throughout the world (not counting gear bonuses and specializations... Average Stats between 2-4 and Average Skills at 3-4, depending upon competency)... that is how it is at our table... only the special ones have base pools of 10, with the truly exceptional at 12+...

If you find that the common ganger has a dicepool of 18, well, that is also a GM issue, and should be addressed... I find that most of the power bloat within the game occurrs because everyone has to have that 9 Stat and the One skill at 6, with the rest being a 4... this leads to characters that are a bit unrealized for me... where are the skills that support your idea... the smattering of 1's and 2's that a good many people would have... not everyone is Veteran of each and every skill that they posses, but it sure does seem to lean that way... and before you comment; I know that it is entirely easy to obtain stats at or near max, especially for the physical stats (Cyberware is fairly cheap afterall )... and that it is entirely easy to obtain Dice Pools in the 20's, for almost every concept out there... it is not a matter of "Can you get Dice Pools of that Size"... it is a matter of "Should You."

Keep the Faith

I think spirits are fundamentally not human, and it's unhelpful to try to get into their heads. But, really, it's all whatever your players want, end of story.

I fail to see how a water spirit would object to putting out a fire.

It struck me as a bit odd, too, but it was one of the examples in the book. I don't see how, say, a water elemental blasting a fire with a jet of water would really be abuse, but maybe something like sending a water spirit into a bonfire to get your teammates out, or something similar that would force the spirit into unpleasant contact with its "opposing" element.

What interpretation? That a GM should to communicate with his players about what constitutes abuse at character creation, particularly when discussing the spirit-summoner relationship typical of the proposed tradition? Because that's really all I wish to suggest. In this case, a RAW issue is practically a GM issue by definition because the RAW essentially says the GM should use their best judgement and leaves it at that. It's an area where "common sense" isn't very common, because I've seen a lot of different attitudes about what constitutes spirit abuse in my time as GMing for an ever rotating cast of college students. It's important to talk about because spirits resisting with Edge does make it harder for a summoner to do their job. Whether that Edge is seen as being used appropriately or not depends on the skills of the GM and the communication at the table.




To me this sounds like you think summoning is generally abusive in and of itself. Which has a certain amount of basis in RAW, particularly if you go so far as to bind them. But is that enough to constitute the Spirit using Edge in and of itself? Well, I'd have to say that I don't know, it depends on other factors as well. For example, a wujen binding and invoking a Guidance spirit up to Great Form so that he might divine information about the location of the bones of his ancestors so that they may be buried in a place of honor is going to have an easier time of things at my table than if the same Wujen routinely does things like invoking a Plant Spirit, strapping some C4 to it and saying something like "Go run into that lobby. Stick around afterwards; I got you Regeneration for a reason." And I'd bet that's something you'd agree with me on. But the problem is that between those two extremes there's a whole mess of gray areas that you'll have to navigate with your players.

Summoning a spirit is in itself not abusive but when it ccomes to the use of edge I use a simple rule.

For every point of force above the casters magic the spirit have 1 edge dice it will always use and can use it as many times as the difference in force.

This can be avoided by following the chosen tradition of the caster as to avoid angering the spirit or that the magician spends a point of edge to negate the force difference.

Anything with twice the casters magic will always oppose the summoning and any kind of binding.

Nothing of the above would be abuse of the spirit.

Oh, no. I wasn't talking about how you treat them so much as the tasks you ask of them.

I'm not sure if there is a RAW means of handling this, but each Tradition assigns a different Spirit to a different role.

Combat, Detection, Health, Illusion and Manipulation. In order to keep mages in my game from using Spirits as an open invitation to superpowers, I try to keep them to their defined roles. So, since for a Hermetic, a Spirit of Man is a tool used for health, I try to keep track of how it's used and if the mage keeps trying to make the Spirit cast Manipulation or Combat spells, I warn him that he's messing with the order of things. Even a tool can get bent if you use it incorrectly.

The point I was apparently not making is that Spirits are living beings, not magical constructs waiting to be sumoned so that they may serve... and, a Spirit has an Edge Attribute, so, it may spend that Edge however it sees fit... this Edge expenditure is in the hands of the GM, not the Player, and if the spirits wishes to spend it to resist summonings or bindings, it is the purview of the spirit, not the player...

That being said, I did indicate that, at least at our table, higher level spirits can be enticed to not use Edge for resistance, if the Summoner is on good terms with the spirit world... In your above example, The Wujen summoning the Guidance Spirit would also probably get a pass at our table, while the second example would not... it is all about respect and appropriate behavior.

Spirits are alive, and as such, those who abuse them (and who really knows what the spirit considers as abuse, as human views are truly irrelevant to the Spirit in this matter) should expect to be rewarded for their behavior... on the same token, those who treat with respect and honor will gain benefits for their behavior as well... At our table, teh Spirits err on the side of caution, so the Summoner must prove himself to the spirit, not the other way around.

Anyways...

Keep the Faith

Knowing such information is a core of the Conjuring skill group, so pretty much every magician that plays with spirits has a good idea.

Wait a minute. You contend that it's not possible to know what spirits consider abuse, but it is possible to know what they consider respectful? Seems pretty contradictory to me.

It really isn't though...

Point being that Spirits are living entities... treat them badly and you will suffer the consequences... treat them well and you will reap the benefits... you may never know exactly what a spirit considers good or bad behavior. You are right that the Traditions provide a sort of guideline of its basic philosophy... but notice that there are absolutely no guidelines on the treatment of spirits... you must infer that from the tradition itself... and it is possible that you could get it wrong.

I find it funny, actually, that people demand that they can treat a spirit as tehy want, but complain when the spirit does something to inhibit the summoner because it feels like it...

Absolutely funny....

Keep the Faith

Yeah, that's basically my stance on it and why I try to get a good handle on how my players think their traditions work so we can be on the same page from the word go. I personally don't want to really penalize someone for playing a tradition with "bossier" fluff-- just like the players, spirits may be independent but they are still subject to rules and the way the SR universe works-- but on the other hand I don't want them running roughshod over things and saying "Well, that's how it works in my custom Tradition so nyah." That's why I tend to favor the route of making up some rules for the tradition together with the player. For example, I had a Black Magician in my group and we decided that if he's going to be bossy with his spirits, he had better keep them on a tight leash and not expect them to go out of their way to help him out. I let him get away with some BS with his weakling spirits quite often, but if he tried the same stuff with spirits with forcer at his magic or higher I would stick him with the equivalent of a Sustaining penalty a bit quicker than I might have with other traditions.